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Zimbabwe says it seized U.S.-registered plane

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Again back to my original point.

This was most likely planned within and funded within the continent of Africa. I highly doubt heavy involvement from Britain or the USA in this plot.

Most likely to me is the idea that therse men were patssies for a political purpose. Past staged coups in the region have occured in the exact same way. Its a method for drumming up political support at home and for justifying heavy handed police actions.
 

fleaflo

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Ditto Much
Militarty coups don't happen elsewhere in the world with anywhere near the frequency.East Africa is far more corrupt, this isn't personall opinion, its one of the major arguments of NEPAD and the UN.
Would you say that this is just a natural occurance, or perhaps could it be former colonist countries keeping this part of the world destabilized in order to maintain their hold over the continent(obviously my thinking) There has to be more options but those just effortlessly roll off my tongue right now.

Your opinion matters here because you really don't make any effort to state why things are the way they are. You tend to throw out numbers, names, 'facts' but you tend to dance around direct questions.

A military coup in a first world country? For what? Why would a stable country ie Canada have to suffer thru a military coup?
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by fleaflo
Would you say that this is just a natural occurance, or perhaps could it be former colonist countries keeping this part of the world destabilized in order to maintain their hold over the continent(obviously my thinking) There has to be more options but those just effortlessly roll off my tongue right now.

Your opinion matters here because you really don't make any effort to state why things are the way they are. You tend to throw out numbers, names, 'facts' but you tend to dance around direct questions.

A military coup in a first world country? For what? Why would a stable country ie Canada have to suffer thru a military coup?
I avoid saying why things are the way they are as a point of fact. I believe that I am far too ignorant of the factors involved to make silly generalizations. Colonialism is clearly at fault for many of the problems in Africa. Corrupt leaders who borrowed billions and never built any roads or schools are another. It very quickly becomes an argument of chicken and egg and one that I think neither side can support well enough to be able to defend simply because both sides share in to much of the blame.

Is France guilty of the mess in Algeria? In my personal opinion yes. Are three decades of some of the worst most unrepresentative governments in history guilty? in my personal opinion yes. Was Britain guilty of disproportionate land distribution in Rhodesia? Yes clearly they are. Is Mugabea solution of handing over farms to military generals who propped him into power a solution? Again in my opinion no it’s only making the problem worse and leaving a corrupt black man in place of a corrupt white man.

I celebrate the efforts being taken by NEPAD. In identifying that regardless of the past there is a present that we must deal with. That without transparency and good governance the situation will never reverse itself. From my stand point of profound ignorance into the collective histories and atrocities that have occurred I simply don't believe I have the right to place any judgment on it. I can look at a current situations and place my personal opinions upon it. I can look at how certain things are handled and how certain plans are implemented but in only at a very superficial level.

I can hold opinions based on experiences. One of my major sources of this is a gentleman by the name of Francis Child, currently he is with the UN development program in Turkey, and however he has been involved in African development for the last 30 years. He told me about his experiences in 1985 with Ethiopian aid, and how they had to pay off border guard and military general after border guard and military general to feed people. I can speak about the long discussions we have had and the views he imparted upon me. About his experience being forced out of a country in which they were doing a medical aid program, because they were helping the wrong tribe and this frightened the leaders.

There is plenty of blame to go around. But again there are also plenty of there own domestic sources at play. Without a clear change in how African governments work together and how they operate I don't believe that the problems can be solved. Acknowledging blame has been done and there are many great books out there in regards to this. But its isn’t solving anything, without a profound change in how African society organizes and treats itself internally all they are doing is making it more attractive to the corrupt.

Just to say this one last time. I don’t believe that individually Africans are more or less capable of corruption or of evil or good. I believe that with 200 years of corrupt system after corrupt system they have had to learn to live and work within corruption. Without a systematic approach to dealing with this corruption from the top down Africans are forever slaves to it. Regardless of who is pulling the strings it simply can’t improve.

Southern Italy is a parallel that traditionally comes to mind. Southern Italy is notoriously poor compared to the north; they have very high levels of corruption. They have constant political upheaval and it has held them back economically and socially since WWII. Current era Russia is fighting the exact same problems, without good governance regardless of the political system they are doomed to the same failures over and over again.
 

fleaflo

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Ditto Much
...without a profound change in how African society organizes and treats itself internally all they are doing is making it more attractive to the corrupt.
I would think that it's nearly impossible for a country to reorganize itself when it is clearly not within the interests of a priviliged few countries to do so. I could only imagine what the Americans would do if a leader who wasn't pro-American came into power in Nigeria.

Destabilization is so much easier nowadays. Colonization is passe.
 

derek

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by fleaflo
I would think that it's nearly impossible for a country to reorganize itself when it is clearly not within the interests of a priviliged few countries to do so. I could only imagine what the Americans would do if a leader who wasn't pro-American came into power in Nigeria.

Destabilization is so much easier nowadays. Colonization is passe.
that about says it all.

the us probably wouldn't invade nigeria. i'm pretty certain they would support an internal coupe, though.

peace,

derek
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by fleaflo
I would think that it's nearly impossible for a country to reorganize itself when it is clearly not within the interests of a priviliged few countries to do so. I could only imagine what the Americans would do if a leader who wasn't pro-American came into power in Nigeria.

Destabilization is so much easier nowadays. Colonization is passe.


Yes this is true.
 
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