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Yosemite Sam named new ambassador to Muslimland

Big Harv

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
Explain.



You're right, the insinuation is correct. She will not grow up in an environment where the West is respected, and instead, will grow up in an environment where violence is taught as an effective means for parlaying justice in a world of religious virtuosity.
The cartoon showed Mohammad with an exploding turban - the insinuation being that Islam and violence are fundamentally interconnected. The people and placards pictured at that rally are depict an enraged, vengence seeking mob that want to respond to the cartoons with violent means to deter any future insults towards their religion. By using violent means to articulate the message, they only validate the message of the cartoon.

The baby is going to be brought up in a household that disrespects her native country and cheers on extremist groups who use violent means against innocent civilians to get their point across, whatever that point is.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Hal-9000
Keith did you really just compare whats going on with the Nat Turner rebellion?
Yes, with respect to the reaction from the public. There are better examples of the public's response to hostile action taken by oppressed groups, but the parallels are obvious.
 

Big Harv

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
Yes, with respect to the reaction from the public. There are better examples of the public's response to hostile action taken by oppressed groups, but the parallels are obvious.
Oppressed??? You're so full of shit, atp. Did oppression lead Canadian Muslims to boycott danish products? How are they oppressed? Did oppression lead these british Muslims to bust out signs with death threats?? How are they oppressed? Did oppression force Lebanese and Syrain citizens from burning the embassies of Denmark and Norway - two of the most peaceful, non-aggressive nations on the face of the earth???? I think you really need to re-think who is being oppressed.

You are actually oppressing me with your fucked up logic.
 

deafplayer

TRIBE Member
Without knowing the details of what youre refering to, I'll take a shot and say:

Its called solidarity big harv


my impression of big harv:

Did FREE blacks protest slavery because they were oppressed??!??!? (They clearly were not - they're free individuals!) Thats bullshit!
Did American Jews free of the hallocaust boycott German goods because they were oppressed??!!?!?!?!?!?!??!
[/impersonation]


and additionally, we all know that Muslims and blacks and women and so on are all free and equal here in The New World





Monsieur Judge de Wopner, I will get back to you fairly and at length as soon as I can (which wont be tonight)
 
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docta seuss

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
I think there are probably better examples, but the only one I can come up with in my current state of disbelief is the Nat Turner revolt of 1800-something (okay, fine, I'll look it up).
seems you got out of that without having to say a whole lot. ;)


you have made it quite clear that you feel most of our views on the issue are rather ghastly displays of intolerance and ignorance, but at least venture to add why you feel this way.


is it culturally insensitive to suggest that violence is quite a barbaric way of dealing with conflict?

is it culturally insensitive to call the behaviour of some of the protesters absurd?

is it wrong to be pissed off when thousands of people take to the street wanting blood to be spilled over some insulting cartoons?

i don't get where the problem lies for you, and your story certainly didn't clear anything up for me.

all i got from it is that you feel that those calling for the artists' heads, and indeed those of Danes[and now many other nationalities] in general, are amongst the minority.
i think we all agree.

The message of the slave insurrection was that when blacks rebelled, all Whites died.

^^are you suggesting that some of us subscribe to this mentality based solely on the overblown reactions of a few Muslims?
that we are on the path towards becoming anti-Islam, or Islamphobic?
 

Big Harv

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by deafplayer


Its called solidarity big harv


my impression of big harv:

Did FREE blacks protest slavery because they were oppressed??!??!? (They clearly were not - they're free individuals!) Thats bullshit!
Did American Jews free of the hallocaust boycott German goods because they were oppressed??!!?!?!?!?!?!??!
[/impersonation]


and additionally, we all know that Muslims and blacks and women and so on are all free and equal here in The New World

But the Muslims are not "protesting" their historical grievances - they are protesting the cartoons!!! Again, you are projecting reasons for the violence that don't exist.

By your logic, the Muslims all over the world are protesting to express solidairity with their "oppressed" Danish Muslim brothers and sisters who are suffering because of their treatment in Denmark. Danish Muslims not only have full and equal right and treatment with their non Muslim citizens, but even greater in some instances - they have received disproportionately higher social welfare payments and the Danish government has spent public funds to build mosques - you can call that oppressed - i call that gold fucking standard treatment.

Oppressed my ass.

Even if Muslims had a claim that they were oppressed, which I deny, that does not give them an excuse or justification to commit criminal acts and violate international law by burning down embassies
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
just read today in the paper about a boycot on danish goods.

i think its a great idea.

if youre that insulted by something and you feel a boycott is in order then all the power to you. money talks.

and im glad that on the front page of the globe they featured this story instead of more accounts of violence.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Big Harv
But the Muslims are not "protesting" their historical grievances - they are protesting the cartoons!!!
Therefore, quite clearly, these sick Arabs are insane, savage and evil creatures. Clearly, there is something fundamentally wrong with them, as such a response to mere cartoons is beyond rational and would never, in any other society, warrant such a nasty, brutish response.
 
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Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
Something like not taking into account the ERA of the batter before he steps up to the plate.
*shakes head* Ah you science types....:)



(FYI my friend.....it's the pitcher's ERA that gets taken into account, not the batter;) )



More on this topic throughout the day I'm sure (I wish I wasn't so busy today!). To those levelling charges of racism and ignorance and patronizing and condescension and so on in response.....spare me! This is an emotional topic and I'm sure sometimes things get said in the moment which may not accurately reflect what the poster truly means. That last thing we need is finger-wagging about racism etc. detracting from the debate.
 

JayBrain

TRIBE Member
This thread is up to 7 pages.. so I just want to throw my two cents in and then go back and catch up on some reading..

The Cartoon came out in SEPTEMBER!
Who's orchestrating these people protest in February?

Religeon is a cult, and their leaders are the ones using this NOW to heat up their brainwashed people for what reason??
 

TrIbAlNuT

TRIBE Member
In my opinion these cartoons where simply the last straw for Muslims. After the mess in Iraq and Afghanistan, they took these cartoons has excuse to totally loose it.

There have been several inappropriate depictions of Jesus; I remember a statue of Mary made from Elephant dung in India. You didn't see Christians all over the world rise up and start burning Indian embassies.

Why are people so dumb and not to realize that the Danish government had nothing to do with the publication of these insults. Thats like foreigners burning the Canadian embassies because of something that the Star published.

That Danish paper was out of line, but they did have the "freedom to publish.

The Muslims that are causing all this violence are not really proving there point, in fact they are proving the cartoons point.

Now this, Iranian paper looking to publish cartoons making fun of the Holocaust.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/religion


TrIbAlNuT
 

Gizmo

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by TrIbAlNuT


There have been several inappropriate depictions of Jesus; I remember a statue of Mary made from Elephant dung in India. You didn't see Christians all over the world rise up and start burning Indian embassies.
That wasn't India, the statue you are referring to is by British-Nigerian painter Chris Ofili who exhibited his Holy Virgin Mary, decorated with dried elephant dung, in the Sensations show at the Brooklyn Museum of Art.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/225737.stm

There was widescale uproar from within the States itself, and Rudy Guilliani tried to pull funding for the museum.

Given that India has about 50 million Christians, still sizable even though small compared to the Hindu and Muslim numbers overall, there would have been a lot of protest and if something like that had gone down.

Not saying there isn't religious tension in India...a lot of militant Hindu's target foreign missionaries in the boonies when they are shown doing conversions. There was the destruction of the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya for example...but given that so much of some Hindu rituals involve the use of a Holy idol, idol desecration tends to be a virtual no no there.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
i remember reading the case for Ernst Zundel. he recieved regualr death threats and harrassment outside his home before being eventually jailed for extradition back to germany.

i doubt it was muslims, hindu's or bhuddist's doing any of this.

an entire wing of the jewish legal community acted to have him tried in canada for extradition to germany. their success is mark of using non-violent mehtods to achieve something you feel is worthwhile.

to those who threatened him or threw stones at his windows, they were less christian or jewish extremists than they were simply violent people acting on this impulse that if caught would have been arrested and not forgiven for their actions because we may agree that ernst zundel was a big asshole.

to those who are saying "muslims this" or "muslims that" i think are off the mark more than anything else because the reaction has been so varied within the muslim world as a whole... just like anyother culture or religion...
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
I'd organize an ole fashion book burning of the Quran, unfortunately I'd have to buy a copy to burn and I'm cheap.

Anyone know of any websites that are giving away a free Quran, I'd like to send one to each of my brown neighbors and then call the department of homeland security on there terrorist asses.

It be fun to watch a Mexican try to explain that hes a roman catholic and not a terrorist to a dude employed by the US government.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
MORE PROOF OF INSANITY AND BARBARISM!!!!


Only democracy will salvage the souls of these confused animals...
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Pakistan's mild reaction to cartoons

By Aamer Ahmed Khan
BBC News, Karachi

The response in Pakistan to the controversy over Danish caricatures of the Muslim Prophet Muhammad has been relatively measured and restrained, taking many observers by surprise.

Pakistan is, after all, a country that has a history of violent protests against any perceived sacrilege.

In November 1979, enraged Pakistani protestors had set fire to the US embassy in Islamabad after Saudi political dissidents briefly laid siege to the Kaaba - the premier Muslim place of worship in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.

Ten years later, seven protestors were killed in police firing as they demonstrated against Salman Rushdie, the author of Satanic Verses.

More recently, the 2005 controversy over the alleged desecration of the Muslim holy book of Koran in the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay led to widespread protests across Pakistan.

In comparison, the cartoon controversy has drawn little more than the regulation fare: an inconsequential condemnation from the upper house of parliament, echoed by President Musharraf, and diplomatic protest by the government to various European countries.

There have been some demonstrations by religious groups - nearly all poorly attended - besides a few newspaper editorials urging the West to show restraint in such matters.

'Political mileage'

For a country that emerged as a resilient sanctuary for militant Islam after the 11 September attacks on the US, the restraint is indeed surprising.

Or is it?

"Muslim leadership the world over has historically been the most cynical manipulator of Islam - and this is especially true of Pakistan," says one analyst.

"Injured religious sentiment has seldom translated into public unrest unless there was political mileage to be gained from it by some vested interest," he argues.


The 1979 sacking of the US embassy in Islamabad, say these analysts, was aimed at convincing the US of Islam's destructive potential and hence its utility in the fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's prime minister at the time of the anti-Rushdie riots in 1989, has repeatedly said those riots were instigated by the country's military leadership to destabilise her government.

And the Guantanamo desecration protests came at a time when Pakistan's military government was under pressure over the large number of Pakistani detainees in that facility.

"We all saw the impassioned protests against desecration reports from Guantanamo," says another analyst.

"But the post-Saddam sacking of the Baghdad museum which destroyed precious manuscripts of the Koran went completely unnoticed in Pakistan."

'Intellectual oppression'

What is also striking in Pakistan is the lack of any real discussion of the issues in this latest row over the Danish cartoons.

Pakistan is one of a number of counties with rigid blasphemy laws often described by the global human rights groups as "inhuman".

In Pakistan, the blasphemy law has pre-empted all possibility of an open debate on Islam and its role in a rapidly changing world.

Indeed, there have been blasphemy cases instituted against teachers for trying to explain to their students that the Prophet's parents could not have been Muslims for the simple reason that they died before the advent of Islam.

"The intellectual oppression across the Muslim world has left the onus of initiating an informed debate on religion entirely in the hands of the West," says one analyst.

"We see that happening again on this cartoon issue."

So if the West chooses to conduct the debate within a strictly liberal paradigm, there is little that Muslims can do about it.

'Irreconcilable

For example, the issue for many in the West is that of freedom of expression but for many Muslims, it is a question of how much humiliation - irrespective of what form it comes in - they have to endure at the hands of the West.

"It is not a question of who is right and who isn't," says a multi-national employee.

"The issue is a failure of the two sides to realise that their world is split between two seemingly irreconcilable world views, that of Islam and the West."

Expecting the West to show restraint is only one component of a solution that sidesteps the question over what role the Muslims can play in bridging the gap.

Pakistani liberals argue that Muslims know very well that the West - despite its emphasis on personal freedoms - also has its sacred cows, the Holocaust being a prime example.

What the Muslims have yet to learn, they say, is how to persuade the prevailing Western mindset to pay similar respect to what they hold so dear.

That is a task which liberal Pakistanis feel is unlikely to be accomplished by banishing the cartoons for being sacrilegious or burning down Western embassies.

"The cartoons should be treated as a window into the western mind and examined to understand the exact nature of this gap of understanding," concludes a lawyer from Karachi.

"Only then can the Muslims hope to explain to the West that suicide bombings are not a politically glorified quest for virgins in the hereafter."

(The people interviewed for this article did not wish to be named.)
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/4688624.stm


---------------------------------



Thes protests have nothing to do with cartoons!!
 
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docta seuss

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
MORE PROOF OF INSANITY AND BARBARISM!!!!


Only democracy will salvage the souls of these confused animals...
you continue to denouce comments as being the products of ignorant and intolerant minds, but have yet to say anything of value. constructive criticism is welcome.. as is sarcasm, but it does get old. ;)
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by docta seuss
you continue to denouce comments as being the products of ignorant and intolerant minds, but have yet to say anything of value. constructive criticism is welcome.. as is sarcasm, but it does get old. ;)
What are you talking about? Seriously, are you just goading me or are you just letting my words stumble out the back of your head?
 

Onthereals

TRIBE Member
People forget the ability of a symbol/cartoon to be easily interpreted by people all over. One can not be able to read or write, but be able to be offended by a cartoon, because it is just a picture. no needed translation. This is mainly why it has caused an uproar because it is easy to understand.

I do believe however that some muslims have been using this cartoon as a sort of easy excuse to protest. It is sort of similar to the car burnings in france last year when it erupted over a small incident and became much bigger. I dont believe Denmark is at the forefront of muslim oppression, and its more cause they are an easy target, (a not really powerful first world nation) than taking on say the U.S. (which they are doing in other ways, but not necessarily in the fashion being used currently)
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
I really don't get it. Many comments in this thread have condemned the rioters behaviour as "unacceptable" (in all its forms) and totally "unreasonable" without making any attempt to venture beyond the short-sighted and morally righteous commentary on the utterly "brutish" behaviour of these people, caused entirely by the sensationalization of a few cartoons. Shutting off your brain after making that remark is equivalent to wondering why "them darkies always gots to complain so much". Can't they just SHUT UP and BEHAVE???

Do you not see how that is even remotely condescending? Of course violence should be condemned, but you would not simply condemn the violence of the Women's rights movement just because one of their protests became violent, or became spuriously violent as a result of a newspaper mocking women slaving away in a factory for $2 / week.

The important question is not "is rioting against innocent victims okay" (of course it isn't okay) but rather "why did these rioters lash out?" Simply watching the anger flourish in the context of these cartoons (something Big Harv and Shallow_Indent relish in) leaves you with no other explanation except insanity: there is no real external cause for the behaviour of these animals. And immediately, when looking for a rationalization, where the fuck do we go and look? Hey, their religion is kind of fucked, yo! It must be their religion. It must be some sort of insulated, internalized problem with their culture. Forget the environmental factors, which only apply to more convenient examples.

Religion is not an immutable force, nor does it contain inherent properties that are simply expressed outwardly. Religion responds and shifts to the dynamic of its environment, obviously most strongly to the attitudes of its constituents. The role of "leaders" is also important, the role of external nations' perceptions of the people, the natural environmental factors, etc, all constitute the shape and expression of religion. I can't stand the short-sighted branding we so readily apply to conflict as though one can truly isolate cause and effect into a nice, repeatable package.
 
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