Why are we so willing to forgive hockey players who kill each other?

[dicksherwood]

First the Snyder family said they didn't blame Dany Heatley for the crash that killed their son, blame for which I believe will eventually be placed on Heatley shoulders by authorities and deservedly so. An act of extreme kindness ("extreme" as in "weird") supported by many posters on this board. I was surprised.

Now a drunk Rob Ramage ("drunk" based on charges of impaired driving against him) kills another former NHLer and the family says they don't blame Ramage and that accidents happen. Yet Mr. Ramage potentially could spend years behind bars if he is convicted of charged with impaired driving causing death and dangerous driving causing death (very serious charges), which all signs show that he will be.

When this type of crime occurs among non-athletes, well we don't hear about it, but I guarantee the families of the dead are in court praying for the day that the offender is handed justice and the families wouldn't be asking for leniency.

do hockey players carry that much weight in our society that they can essentially get away with murder? if so....scary.

 

[Soundstream]

How do you know that this type of forgiveness doesn't occur in situations involving non-atheletes?

I am sure there are tons of cases where one friend was driving another friend home and they were killed in a crash. The driver survives, but the passenger friend dies. I know of someone personally that it happened to, and since both families were friends, they did not blame the driver. It would do no good.

Cheers ... Ian

 

[R4V4G3D_SKU11S]

I would like to think that I'd forgive someone if this happened to someone that I knew.

I'm sure that Ramage is going through so much crap in his own mind. Being mad at people for something that has already passed is such a waste of energy. It's not like making him feel worse will help anything. In the end it just makes you bitter.

 

[dicksherwood]

The problem I have is that I think Ramage and Heatley are being forgiven at least in part because of their relationship with the NHL. I don't think most families are quite so quick to forgive, especially when a socially unacceptable practice like impaired driving is involved.

I also think this forgiveness could lead to a softening of the punishment handed to Heatley and Ramage by the courts, which sets a very bad precedent.

 

[tobywan]

Everything happens for a reason.....there are no such things as "accidents".

Rob Ramage chose to consume alcohol after the funeral that day.

Rob Ramage chose to drive after he drank.

Keith Magnuson died as a DIRECT result of Rob Ramage's choices.

No excuse for drinking and driving, and there's no way it can be justified.

 

[The Tesseract]

All of these fall into the category of law and ethics aptly called "OJism" (pronounced oh-jay-ism)
With enough clout and money, you can get away with murder.



:|

 

[tayo]

Because in both cases the passenger and the driver were friends, and the passenger was aware that his friend had been drinking?

 

[Soundstream]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that drinking was not an issue in the Heatley incident, since they determined that only one drink had been consumed. Excessive speed was more to blame.

The question also could be asked as to why the person who stepped into the vehicle with Ramage chose to drive home with a drunk driver? The amount of alcohol that Ramage consumed was enough for someone to be visibly drunk.

I am not removing the blame from Ramage, just giving reasons as to why one family might be willing to forgive another.

Cheers ... Ian

 

[dicksherwood]

I don't think Snyder can be blamed for not knowing his friend was an idiot.

-Mrs. Snyder to Mr. Snyder "well dear we can take solace in knowing that Daniel just was too stupid to know not to get in cars with lunatic driver so it's really his own fault"

 

[Soundstream]

Originally posted by dicksherwood69
I don't think Snyder can be blamed for not knowing his friend was an idiot.

Was that directed towards my comments? I said nothing about Snyder being to blame for getting in the car. Obviously it was Heatley's fault. He was driving unsafely. We were talking about forgiveness, not fault.

Cheers ... Ian

 

[dicksherwood]

Originally posted by Soundstream
We were talking about forgiveness, not fault.

One and the same in this case. Snyder's family is saying they forgive Dany because it was an accident and not his fault. I'd bet they wouldn't forgive Heatley if he'd shot Snyder, they'd be laying blame because that would clearly be Heatley's fault. I don't see a difference between shooting someone and killing the passenger in your car, but for some reason the Snyder family does and I think that's strange and socially dangerous.

The Magnuson family says they don't blame Ramage, that it was an accident and not his fault. I'd bet they wouldn't forgive Ramage if he'd shot Magnuson, they'd be laying blame because that would clearly be Ramage's fault. I don't see a difference between shooting someone and killing the passenger in your car while driving impaired, but for some reason the Magnuson family does and I think that's strange and socially dangerous.

 

[Littlest Hobo]

Pro hockey players aren't the smartest guys around...

 

[R4V4G3D_SKU11S]

I think that promoting that it is not the drivers fault, they are choosing to forgive.

By forgiving, they are saying that they do not hold any ill will. If the family of the deceased were to say that it is the drivers fault, it would be a pretty harsh thing for the driver to deal with. I'm sure that they know that it was his fault, but they don't wish to make him feel any worse about it.

 

[The Tesseract]

Originally posted by Littlest Hobo
Pro hockey players aren't the smartest guys around...

that would be exactly why players like Gretzky and Lemieux are standouts.

 

[R4V4G3D_SKU11S]

Originally posted by Littlest Hobo
Pro hockey players aren't the smartest guys around...

I dunno man - to be a professional hockey player, you do have to be pretty smart. Not book smart obviously, but have the capacity to read and react to situations quickly. The amount of knowledge that you need to have to be able to make these decisions in the NHL is amazing. Years and years of building up applicable knowledge is necessary.

 

[Klubmasta Will]

many are also willing to forgive basketball players that rape, superstar singers that get kids drunk and then molest them, football hall of famers that slit the throats of ex-wives, boxers that rape women and bite the ears off men, record executives that shoot people, washed up male rnb singers that beat up their more talented wives, rappers that brag about shooting people, et al.

it's a fucked up world.

ps. leave michael jackson alone.

 

[dicksherwood]

Originally posted by basic
I think that promoting that it is not the drivers fault, they are choosing to forgive.

By forgiving, they are saying that they do not hold any ill will. If the family of the deceased were to say that it is the drivers fault, it would be a pretty harsh thing for the driver to deal with. I'm sure that they know that it was his fault, but they don't wish to make him feel any worse about it.

what about how the family feels? what about the image that this projects to the rest of society? all of a sudden either being a stupid driver and killing your friend or worse, being a drunk driver and killing your friend is ok? or maybe it's only ok because these are hockey players.

this is human life we're talking about, it's not replaceable. A young man about to embark on a successful career, the fulfillment of his dreams, was killed, needlessly, selfishly. A father, grandfather and by all accounts a successful man, with many years ahead was killed, needlessly, selfishly. Our society doesn't accept these acts, the way the offender feels is not adequate consequences for their acts. But the forgiveness of the families could lessen those consequences and I fear this is only because they are hockey players. I wish to know why that is.

 

[dicksherwood]

Originally posted by basic
I dunno man - to be a professional hockey player, you do have to be pretty smart. Not book smart obviously, but have the capacity to read and react to situations quickly. The amount of knowledge that you need to have to be able to make these decisions in the NHL is amazing. Years and years of building up applicable knowledge is necessary.

not that intelligence is in anyway an excuse for a person's actions (do not confuse intelligence with mental ability), but I agree, hockey players do have to be intelligent in some way. This could be used as an argument for punishing them to the fullest extent of the law -you are SMART enough not to drive your ferrari like an asshole and kill your friend- -you are SMART enough to know the consequences of drinking and driving-

 

[R4V4G3D_SKU11S]

Originally posted by dicksherwood69
what about how the family feels? what about the image that this projects to the rest of society? all of a sudden either being a stupid driver and killing your friend or worse, being a drunk driver and killing your friend is ok? or maybe it's only ok because these are hockey players.

I don't think that they ever said that drinking and driving was OK.
They just said that they don't blame him for the accident - this is what you do when you forgive. You say "It's OK, you made a mistake, everyone is human so we don't blame you". This has nothing to do with downplaying drinking and driving. They just want to know that they understand that it was a mistake. Forgiveness is an extremely important life lesson as well.

It was a mistake he shouldn't have made and punishment is of course necessary. Punishment in this case is important and you can bet that the mental anguish will far outweight the jail time that he will no doubt receive. I think that if he received less jail time because of being an athelte, then we can talk. But for the family to kick him when he is down is pointless IMO.

 

[R4V4G3D_SKU11S]

Originally posted by dicksherwood69
This could be used as an argument for punishing them to the fullest extent of the law -you are SMART enough not to drive your ferrari like an asshole and kill your friend- -you are SMART enough to know the consequences of drinking and driving-

Regardless of someones mental ability, they should be be able to realize the risk taken when driving drunk.

Again, I don't think the treatment from the family of the deceased is out of the ordinary. If he ends up getting a light sentence, then the argument could begin.

 

[Soundstream]

Originally posted by dicksherwood69
I don't see a difference between shooting someone and killing the passenger in your car while driving impaired

They would both be forgiven if the shooting was unintentional, just as the accidents were.

In both situations, better judgement on the behalf of both drivers may have resulted in no deaths. However, you cannot say that the judgements made by both drivers were with the intention of killing someone. So it not the same as comparing it as one hockey playing pulling out a gun and shooting another hockey player.

Cheers ... Ian

 

[Musical Rush]

I guess it depends how religious these famlies are,don't catholics forgive everybody ?

 

[R4V4G3D_SKU11S]

I don't think you have to be religious to be forgiving...

 

[Subsonic Chronic]

Hey Kev! Check your PM's yo!

 

[Littlest Hobo]

Originally posted by basic
I dunno man - to be a professional hockey player, you do have to be pretty smart. Not book smart obviously, but have the capacity to read and react to situations quickly. The amount of knowledge that you need to have to be able to make these decisions in the NHL is amazing. Years and years of building up applicable knowledge is necessary.

They know how to play a game well, that's all. Invariably, they are meatheads.