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Western Medical Practices

atbell

TRIBE Member
Our Western understanding of Medicine has become quite advanced. Unfortunately, as most are quick to point out, it is only really advanced in the realm of fixing problems and not in making sure problems don't occur.

So what do we do to change this?

Public health funding reductions and opposition to the programs being taught caused pre-natal classes, Canada's food guide, and that program that made you run laps and do sit-ups in public school go away.

Should we be bringing these types of preventative programs back?

Is there a "healthy lifestyle" that can be commonly agreed upon?

deafplayer had complaints about the food guide and I am sure there are others, is it even possible to recommend a diet?
 
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judge wopner

TRIBE Member
youve brought up points as opposition to deafplayer before, are you his foil, or atually deafplayer dressed up as someone else?

the same way ditto much and janiecakes are the same?
hja!!!!!!
----------------------------

"western medicine" is the sense youre refering to is a bit of a misnomer considering the thousands of eastern medical practitioners that now operate with full regulation and insurance coverage in north america. there are varying opinoins on their effectivlness but such disagreements exist among doctors for all types of western/eastern medical techniques.

prevention is critical but its tough to take money away from existing medical services to the sick to devote to prevention. you dont tell someone dying of lung cancer they should have stopped smoking a long time ago, you need to go about tyring to cure them, mabey using their tragic story as an example to younger people as a prevention measure!!

i dotn think the government should have to come up with an agreed upon plan for our diet, people's cultural or relgiious inclinations may insist they follow different guidellines, other than preaching things like sanitation and the like why would we need to impose a guildeline on people, there are many legitimate yet totally opposing views on the best diet, let people discuss and consider it.
 

Deep_Groove

TRIBE Member
Yeah "Western Medicine" sure sucks at prevention...all those sewage and sanitation programs starting from mid-19th century Britain onward did absolutely nothing to curb infectious disease epidemics

And the flouridation of water supplies to prevent tooth decay..

And all those pre-natal screenings to test for genes likely to cause genetic disease...

hmmm how far can I go with this...

Anyways, Western medicine has been able to prevent MANY things. Those conditions it has not yet been able to prevent are conditions where the underlying etiology is not yet well enough understood to be able to even CURE them, let alone prevent them.

Give it time

In fact, I'm GLAD Western Medicine focuses on treating disease. Think about what the world would be like if that WASN'T seen as the FIRST task, and prevention only for later

- Deep_Groove
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
atbell said:
Our Western understanding of Medicine has become quite advanced. Unfortunately, as most are quick to point out, it is only really advanced in the realm of fixing problems and not in making sure problems don't occur.

BULLSHIT!!! Western medicine has asked for exercise and a balanced diet the entire time, we just ignore it.

So what do we do to change this?

Go to the gym and do some exercise. Actually foolow the Canada food guide and eat what we are supposed to.


Public health funding reductions and opposition to the programs being taught caused pre-natal classes, Canada's food guide, and that program that made you run laps and do sit-ups in public school go away.

BULLSHIT!!! they're most definately still there and part of the circulum. However pre-natal classes are now a persons choice as delivery has become an almost out patient procedure and c-sections are common place.

Should we be bringing these types of preventative programs back?

Number 1> Stop giving kids video games
Number 2> Don't order cable
Number 3> Get rid of television

Is there a "healthy lifestyle" that can be commonly agreed upon?

deafplayer had complaints about the food guide and I am sure there are others, is it even possible to recommend a diet?


No but you can reasonably tell people that exercise and diet are important. However I don't see this as eastern versus western. The only difference between the two is that western medicine uses the scientific method and experimentation against test groups where as eastern medicine is based on very little except tradition.
 

why not

TRIBE Member
Deep_Groove said:
Yeah "Western Medicine" sure sucks at prevention...all those sewage and sanitation programs starting from mid-19th century Britain onward did absolutely nothing to curb infectious disease epidemics

And the flouridation of water supplies to prevent tooth decay..

And all those pre-natal screenings to test for genes likely to cause genetic disease...

hmmm how far can I go with this...

Anyways, Western medicine has been able to prevent MANY things. Those conditions it has not yet been able to prevent are conditions where the underlying etiology is not yet well enough understood to be able to even CURE them, let alone prevent them.

Give it time

In fact, I'm GLAD Western Medicine focuses on treating disease. Think about what the world would be like if that WASN'T seen as the FIRST task, and prevention only for later

- Deep_Groove

oh shit, i'm agreeing with Deep_Groove
 
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Lurker

TRIBE Member
prevention doesn't cause repeat business and lots of prescriptions for stuff that TV tells you you have.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Lurker said:
prevention doesn't cause repeat business and lots of prescriptions for stuff that TV tells you you have.



BULLSHIT!!!!


How many people take Ginseng, Cod liver oil, St John's wart every single day even though they have been proven to do absolutely nothing. Prevention lets me sell you pills that you take every single day regardless of if your sick or not. Its the capitalists wet dream, perfectly healthy people taking pills based only on the fear of one day getting sick.
 
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deafplayer

TRIBE Member
atbell said:
deafplayer had complaints about the food guide and I am sure there are others, is it even possible to recommend a diet?
I did not express complaints about the food guide
I said medical/health educational efforts were marginal especially compared to other contradictory 'educational' (commercial marketing) programs that have been far more expansive



docta seuss said:
youve brought up points as opposition to deafplayer before, are you his foil, or atually deafplayer dressed up as someone else?

the same way ditto much and janiecakes are the same?
hja!!!!!!
You may be pleased to know I always confuse you and judge wopner :D
 

atbell

TRIBE Member
I'm surprised at the consensus, it's almost as if everyone is agreeing.

Sorry about the misunderstanding deafplayer. I must have read your post incorrectly.

Let me try this out and see if there is opposition:

North American medicine is in good theoretic shape as it considers prevention through healthy living and treatment of ailments as important facets of the medical program. That being said, we must be aware of the influence of profit seeking corporations, especially in areas such as pharmaceuticals, and the sensitivities of an individuals choice of personal diet.

I am concerned about people seeing adds for drugs on TV. I don't think it's as bad in Canada as in the US because I was shocked when watching FOX "News" on the airplane home for Christmas when I saw an add for a drug to relieve RLS (restless leg syndrome). From the sounds of it the drug was a simple sedative aimed a knocking people out who had been inactive all day and had that kind of bouncing leg jitter some people get when they need to move. Made me think of the mother in Requiem for a Dream.

Ditto Much had an equally good point about preventative "prescriptions". Reminds me of the line taken by the intelligence community:

How do you know it's working?

Well, northing's happening so it must be working.
 

dig this

TRIBE Member
Personally, I believe that we should be focusing more on prevention - not as in vitamin supplements or cod liver oil pills, but more focus on diet & excercise, and even environment (reducing smog for example)... There are tons of illnesses and deaths that are preventable if people would just make some lifestyle changes. I think it comes from individual choices but it should also come from above (government) to educate people and to provide oppourtunity for healthy options. This can come in the form of mandatory phys ed for all children to things like the fat tax where unhealthy foods are taxed more than healthy foods. This opens a whole other can of worms but the idea is to make the healthy choice also the easy choice.

As the saying goes; an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Surely there are things that we just can't prevent, but in cases such as diabeities for example, a healthy lifestyle with the proper nutrition & exercise can definitely save a lot of hospital visits for millions of people and allow more attention for illnesses that we can't prevent.
 

Lovely N Amazin

TRIBE Member
yes, but how do you fit that into our current economic model? i don't believe it's a simple eastern/western dichotomy but here we love to treat the symptoms and devote lots of effort to sophisticated, specialized care at the expense of what you mention.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Lovely N Amazin said:
yes, but how do you fit that into our current economic model? i don't believe it's a simple eastern/western dichotomy but here we love to treat the symptoms and devote lots of effort to sophisticated, specialized care at the expense of what you mention.


Really????


So why do we have every single youth sport availible both in recreation program and in schools. Why do we have public pools in almost every single community centre and swimming lessons.

Sports and recreation let me sell running shoes and cycling shoes and soccer shoes and water bottles and bicycles and footballs and tennis rackets. Our economic model loves automatically renewing gym memberships and they love parents waking up at 5 am and buying a cup of tim hortons coffee on the way to pee wee hockey.

The fact that people make the wrong decisions and instead sit on there asses and watch TV while shoving dingdungs down there blow holes has nothing to do with medicine. And really from an economic perspective we'd far rather they were wearing out shoes and clothing jogging while seeing billboards that cost 1/100th of the commercials.

Blaming health problems on western medicine is somewhat silly. The fact is that the majority of people don't have to struggle for food or clean water and the health consequences are that we have fat lazy people who play video games and spend all there time online chatting in forums like tribe rather than actually having to do something for there survival.
 
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judge wopner

TRIBE Member
Lovely N Amazin said:
yes, but how do you fit that into our current economic model? i don't believe it's a simple eastern/western dichotomy but here we love to treat the symptoms and devote lots of effort to sophisticated, specialized care at the expense of what you mention.

i think its a false construct that in the "west" we treat the symptoms and in the "east" they treat the cure.

this is quite possibly the grossest mis-understanding of medical techniques on both sides of the globe.

symptoms are very often the problem, a sore knee is a sore knee, i may have osteo-arthritic degeneration in my knee but it is the pain which is hampering my daily life. there is no known cure for OA or arthritis for that matter, only plans for slowing it down and releiving the pain. both accupuncture in the traditional chineese school, exercise and anti-inflammatories have widely enjoyed reduction in symptoms of pain, so that people can get on with their lives in spite of a disease there is no cure for

sadly many conditions are as such, prevention is great and its easy to preach prevention until you go into a hospital and see all the people dying of cancer, have broken bones, auto-immune disease or addiction related degeneration. you have to treat the wounded as well.

you dont tell a guy dying of lung cancer "well if you didnt smoke you wuldnt have gotten cancer", you do make sure he realizes this fact while seeking a cure. mabey even combine w/ his treatment him going to talk to kids as a real life example of what smoking does to aid in the prevention side.

this misnomer of western medicine is patently false. is treating a broken bone ignoring prevention in sports saftey? of course not. medicine is just like religion, it is corruptable by some and admirable by others.

do you think in china the population enjoys much better health thanks to eastern focus on prevention and curing diseases the west is in capable of?
china has one of the highest smoking rates in the world, is this ememplary of eastern medicine's lack of prevention? not really.

i think an amalgam of both methods of treatment will prove best in the long run, the greatest hope is people wake up to prevention being the best cure but also the hardest one to follow!!
 

Lovely N Amazin

TRIBE Member
Ditto Much said:
Really????


So why do we have every single youth sport availible both in recreation program and in schools. Why do we have public pools in almost every single community centre and swimming lessons.

Sports and recreation let me sell running shoes and cycling shoes and soccer shoes and water bottles and bicycles and footballs and tennis rackets. Our economic model loves automatically renewing gym memberships and they love parents waking up at 5 am and buying a cup of tim hortons coffee on the way to pee wee hockey.

The fact that people make the wrong decisions and instead sit on there asses and watch TV while shoving dingdungs down there blow holes has nothing to do with medicine. And really from an economic perspective we'd far rather they were wearing out shoes and clothing jogging while seeing billboards that cost 1/100th of the commercials.

Blaming health problems on western medicine is somewhat silly. The fact is that the majority of people don't have to struggle for food or clean water and the health consequences are that we have fat lazy people who play video games and spend all there time online chatting in forums like tribe rather than actually having to do something for there survival.

don't mind me. i'll be somewhere else chasing the point you completely missed.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Lovely N Amazin said:
don't mind me. i'll be somewhere else chasing the point you completely missed.


okay what was the point you were trying to make, I appologies although I quoted you that wasn't really meant as a personal reply only.
 

Dialog

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
do you think in china the population enjoys much better health thanks to eastern focus on prevention and curing diseases the west is in capable of?
china has one of the highest smoking rates in the world, is this ememplary of eastern medicine's lack of prevention? not really

Indeed. The CBC/NY Times series on China recently spent much time exploring the skyrocketing rates of pollution in China to facilitate their rapid growth, and the disparity between poor villagers, nouveau riche/powerful and the government.

We have taught the world well!
 
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dig this

TRIBE Member
Colm said:
That's a good question. I don't think you can.

Sorry for sounding naive, but wouldn't preventing many types of trips to the hospitals be economically sound considering we share a public health care system? I can understand in the US it's beter business to be sick, but up here I could only see positive effects if our population was healthier.
 

416

TRIBE Member
atbell said:
...I saw an add for a drug to relieve RLS (restless leg syndrome)....

I've seen that add as well! I'm a skittery mother fucker, so I've always got the restless leg going on. The list of side effects was awesome. It'll practically kill you... but you're leg will stop twitching!
 

Colm

TRIBE Member
dig this said:
Sorry for sounding naive, but wouldn't preventing many types of trips to the hospitals be economically sound considering we share a public health care system? I can understand in the US it's beter business to be sick, but up here I could only see positive effects if our population was healthier.

Hey, I'm naive too - all my opinions are based upon a handful of conversations with doctors & pharmaceutical sales reps and a very basic understanding of how hospitals make money. Then from the little I know, a shortage in prescriptions and hospital usage will have a significant impact on a large part of our economy. Just look at how many doctors prescribe the birth control pill for acne; its totally unnecessary, but at the same time keeps several major pharmaceutical companies in the black.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
Colm said:
Hey, I'm naive too - all my opinions are based upon a handful of conversations with doctors & pharmaceutical sales reps and a very basic understanding of how hospitals make money. Then from the little I know, a shortage in prescriptions and hospital usage will have a significant impact on a large part of our economy. Just look at how many doctors prescribe the birth control pill for acne; its totally unnecessary, but at the same time keeps several major pharmaceutical companies in the black.

its not a black and white issue

canada and the US buck two different but parallel presumptions about economics and health care:

for cananda: the myth is that state health care systems see their best and brightest flee to more lucrative private health care states for better money and notoriety as well as the lack of private initiative hampers entrepernurial reasearch into better medical techniques.

canada may loose some doctors to the US but we have many first rate hospitals doing excellent research. canada is a heavy weight in stem cell and genetic research as well the Sick childrens hospital is among the best in the world for pediactric specialties and the shouldice clinic is one of the best hernia repair centres in the world.

for the US: the myth of it being a largely private health care distributor only the rich can enjoy top notch health care.

this is true to a certian extent accept that the influx of big cash to american medical treatment has seen massive advances in many different procedures that at one time were costly and exlcusive to the rich but were set in place for other practitioners to mimic at drastically reduced costs.

ie: arthroscopic knee surgery was once a costly and experimental procedure, it is now quite common and drastically cheaper, safer and more effective than open-wound knee surgery, allowing people with basic medical coverage to benefit from these advancements at reduced costs.

the same for the much of the world that then enjoy's these same advances.

not to say other nations dont do top flight reaserach and advances, but th epoint is, there are many poor and entrenched presumptions about economics and health care that dont apply to both our country and the US, who are opposite on the surface yet in spite of their inadequacies in many areas contribute internationally to the body of medical knowledge.
 
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