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war resistors

angelsole

TRIBE Member
so last night i was chatting with a friend of mine about her upcoming, and surprise, wedding. she is marrying her bf b/c his visa has run out and it's just easier than him having to reapply. we then got on to the topic of war resistors b/c another friend of hers married her bf last week so that he wouldn't be sent back to the usa and have to face criminal charges. he is a war resistor. this of course led to a discussion on the idea of war resistors and whether either of us could support them. now i know this is very much a one by one thing and you would need to hear the case of each individual before making a judgement but i am just curious as to how people feel about the issue.
do you think war resistors should be allowed to stay in canada?
 

Chris

Well-Known TRIBEr
Im probably not the best person to voice their opinion on this since Im a little biased. Im very much against these people, its not like they were drafted, thus forced. They enlisted, they volunteered, knowing full well that when their country called them in time of war that they would go. They should never have enlisted in the first place, they knew the risk, its time for them to serve, if they don’t want to serve, they can spend their time in a military prision then.
 

kuba

TRIBE Member
Only thing I have to disagree with is that these two may sign up under different circumstances.

Example: if a war is illegal, even though you signed up for the army, should you still fight for it?
 

zoo

TRIBE Member
the us army doesn't exactly show all it's cards when trying to get new recruits to enlist

i can't blame someone that enlists to the army, goes to war, and gains a distaste for it, resulting in their "desertion" ...
 
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acheron

TRIBE Member
anyone who signed up for the army after 9/11 should accept the consequences of their actions and accepted the duty they volunteered for. All of this changes if a draft is called, however, and I would fully support our country harbouring draft dodgers. I don't think it's a just conflict (it's insulting to wars everywhere to call this a war) at all.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
:( agreed.

when you sign up you have to accept the risk and rewards that come with miilitary service.

you can decline to perform specific acts against military codes like hurting civilians and what not, but you cant dodge duty because you disagree with the war itself.

if he disagrees with the war and is willing to run away, is he planning on returning his recruitment bonus and all the healtcare/tuition supplements armed forces personell get?

probally not because he's over-intellectualized his resistance to the war and sees himself as smart. he's letting the troops in his own unit down and creating a greater shortage of trained troops.
 

Chris

Well-Known TRIBEr
kuba said:
Only thing I have to disagree with is that these two may sign up under different circumstances.

Example: if a war is illegal, even though you signed up for the army, should you still fight for it?
Thats not for the solider to decide, nor question, there is a chain of command, follow it. Besides its up to the Command and Chief, ie President who makes those calls.
 

zoo

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
you can decline to perform specific acts against military codes like hurting civilians and what not, but you cant dodge duty because you disagree with the war itself.
from what i've learned, this isn't an option

you do what you're told, or you're punished until you do what you're told, or you're discharged and face penalty
 
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zoo

TRIBE Member
i think unless you've been (or are currently) IN COMBAT, this is a pretty stupid thing to discuss. the rules change when you're being told to shoot to kill civilians armed with rocks. some people can handle murdering for their country, while other can't.
 

acheron

TRIBE Member
those who can't deal with war shouldn't be soldiers and also should never have been allowed to get into that kind of situation - that's partly the military's fault, for letting someone who can't commit be put into a combat situation. The army needs maleable foolhardy types who are willing to act without thinking.
 

Hypnotoad

TRIBE Member
ChrisD said:
Thats not for the solider to decide, nor question, there is a chain of command, follow it. Besides its up to the Command and Chief, ie President who makes those calls.
Not true actually. All soldiers are expected to follow the USMCOC, which specifies the Geneva Convention must be followed, along with other treaties and international law. If a soldier believes (s)he is being ordered to commit an illegal action, (s)he is required to disobey that order. The Geneva Convention specifies that simply being a grunt and being ordered to kill civilians is not a valid defense. Now then, is an order to fight an illegal war an illegal order? In theory the soldier should work it through the judicial system and not run away.

Now then, my opinion and feeling on any sort of resistence is that if you feel it is wrong, you must act in a way that resists the action you are expected to do. If I were a soldier, and I felt the war was illegal, I would refuse to fight. The punishment for that is to be thrown in jail and dishonourably discharged. If you truly feel that the war is unjust and illegal, you should be willing to follow through completely not run away.

Of course that is all hypothetical. If I were really in that situation, the temptation to run away and try to get asylum somewhere else would be high.
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
If you're drafted I agree with running away.

If you signed up its your own damn problem and you shouldn't be able to dodge it by fleeing to a third party country. I have no issue with draft dodgers but those who signed up and joined of there own free will get 0 sympathy from me.
 

annec

TRIBE Member
Ditto Much said:
If you're drafted I agree with running away.

If you signed up its your own damn problem and you shouldn't be able to dodge it by fleeing to a third party country. I have no issue with draft dodgers but those who signed up and joined of there own free will get 0 sympathy from me.
Hey Ditto, why the hate? I thought you were a lover, not a fighter...:confused:
 

Hypnotoad

TRIBE Member
Ditto Much said:
If you're drafted I agree with running away.

If you signed up its your own damn problem and you shouldn't be able to dodge it by fleeing to a third party country. I have no issue with draft dodgers but those who signed up and joined of there own free will get 0 sympathy from me.
I suspect that if you signed up for the Canadian Forces, you or anyone, would be signing up expecting your political leaders to use you as a soldier responsibly. To help war torn countries with peace keeping, helping to rebuild a nation devastated by natural disaster or to defend Canada from invaders and others that would harm Canada. Now what if your political leaders were not responsible? What if they simply wanted to invade a country for resources or political gain? Is that what you signed up to do? Are you still obligated to follow such orders? It is not so black and white.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
annec said:
Hey Ditto, why the hate? I thought you were a lover, not a fighter...:confused:

I'm totally a lover, but a severe lack of sexual release is making me irritable. I think I need to get laid or at least have a blow job for the sake of those around me.
 

litespeed

Well-Known TRIBEr
ChrisD said:
Im probably not the best person to voice their opinion on this since Im a little biased. Im very much against these people, its not like they were drafted, thus forced. They enlisted, they volunteered, knowing full well that when their country called them in time of war that they would go. They should never have enlisted in the first place, they knew the risk, its time for them to serve, if they don’t want to serve, they can spend their time in a military prision then.


I agree.


It's no different then all those cops in New Orleans that ditched and looted and everything after the huricainne
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Hypnotoad said:
I suspect that if you signed up for the Canadian Forces, you or anyone, would be signing up expecting your political leaders to use you as a soldier responsibly. To help war torn countries with peace keeping, helping to rebuild a nation devastated by natural disaster or to defend Canada from invaders and others that would harm Canada. Now what if your political leaders were not responsible? What if they simply wanted to invade a country for resources or political gain? Is that what you signed up to do? Are you still obligated to follow such orders? It is not so black and white.

Most wars are faught over stupid reasons, when you sign up to join the military you make the decision to join into stupidity.

I for one don't suggest joining the military. I believe if young men didn't make the choice to carry guns old men couldn't order them into war. I don't view the common grunt as a hero or as a nobel profession.
 

AdRiaN

TRIBE Member
Hypnotoad said:
Now what if your political leaders were not responsible? What if they simply wanted to invade a country for resources or political gain? Is that what you signed up to do? Are you still obligated to follow such orders? It is not so black and white.
Actually, it is black and white.

Under the Constitution, our elected officials have the power to make decisions and make laws that all citizens in the country must follow. I cannot pick and choose which laws to follow based solely on my own personal opinion of what qualifies as "responsible."
 

Big Cheese

TRIBE Member
Hypnotoad said:
Now what if your political leaders were not responsible? What if they simply wanted to invade a country for resources or political gain?

like chrisd said, it's not for them to question but to serve.

Hypnotoad said:
Is that what you signed up to do? Are you still obligated to follow such orders? It is not so black and white.
yes it is, simply put, you sign up, you follow orders, if you don't.. you said it yourself

The punishment for that is to be thrown in jail and dishonourably discharged. If you truly feel that the war is unjust and illegal, you should be willing to follow through
exactly, serve your time or go to leavenworth.

the end.
 

Hypnotoad

TRIBE Member
AdRiaN said:
Actually, it is black and white.

Under the Constitution, our elected officials have the power to make decisions and make laws that all citizens in the country must follow. I cannot pick and choose which laws to follow based solely on my own personal opinion of what qualifies as "responsible."
You do have that choice! Ghandi fought against British imperial control of India because it was wrong. Martin Luther King Jr. fought against discrimination and racism because it was wrong. Many others have used civil disobediance to try and show that laws or governments are unjust. However, being disobediant requires that you accept the unfair and unjust punishment. Both Ghandi and King spent a lot of time in jail, but eventually they won.

As a soldier, you can still resist fighting an unjust war, and many have. There are some soldiers locked up in military prisons because they refused to fight an illegal war.

If you feel a law or government action are wrong, you do have the choice to disobey and you even have the obligation as a citizen to point this out to those in power. You can do this through writing letters, protesting, voting and civil disobediance, but whatever you do you must be willing to accept the consquences.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
My father spent 3 years in a Dutch military prison. See in the late 40's and early 50's fresh out of devastation by the Nazi's the Dutch government decided to fight a war in Indonesia, great reasons were given but at the end of the day it was over coffee and oil. And it was over Indonesia wanting to overthrow the colonial rulers who had just returned after Japan had just invaded them.

It was a killing field. Dutch soldiers were poorly equipped and they were outnumbered by about 100:1. In many respects it was worse than Vietnam and to make matter worse those that were coming back weren't coming back healthy they were coming back sick with 100's of diseases from the jungles.

Like all Dutch men previous to the EU my father was required to serve 18 months of mandatory conscription. And thus he was being shipped out regardless of any objections. He tried every option, he claimed religious grounds (at the time my father was actually studying to become a priest) he claimed economic grounds (his families factory was in tatters and both of his parents were already dead) he claimed everything under the son and was still set to go. So he opted for another solution, one day he beat his commanding officer until the man could no longer move or speak. And away to jail he was sent.

His unit lost more than half the men who were sent those that returned suffered for decades. But 3 years less good behaviour and my dad was on a ship moving to a place where the draft was gone and not coming back.

If you don't want to go to war sit down and refuse to stand, refuse to eat, refuse to wear a uniform and refuse to take an order. But take your time and serve it or you aren't making the political point that what you are being ordered to do is wrong. Running away to another country is like George Bush ignoring his duty during Vietnam and not returning to base when ordered. Its the pussies way out.
 
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