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Vinyl SHould DIe

Humanjava

TRIBE Member
Now I still think it is better than CD's but come on there are better media's we can use such as SACD that uses DSD(direct Stream Digital). Why dont ppl like Pioneer stop Fu*K'n with CD and create a player that can use this or at least DVD-A? Besides the ability to surrond sound mix it really would have warm, phat sound and none of the limitations such as rolled off highend, half way through the record or wow and flutter, distortion, easier to carry, etc.

Anyways just had to say it after listening to a few of my new SACD's

:D
 

Humanjava

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by basic
can.worms.open.

p.s. you would be missing that warm vinyl sound, though.
YOu mean ther errors of it. Your nuts DSD SACD sounds as warm when it has to but more accurate. Like I said I am not suggesting CD or shiat like that.
 

deep

TRIBE Member
I haven't heard an SACD yet myself, but I know that they are something audiophiles like quite a bit...

The use of a medium depends on how feasible / easy it is to get music on to that medium....

So there's a good reason why vinyl is as prolific as it is, not just in the electronic music scene, but in indie rock etc.

Getting vinyl pressed is probably easier than engineering an SACD, as evidenced by how SACD music is relatively limited
 
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zoo

TRIBE Member
^^ no one presses vinyl except for "dj music" anymore

unless for novelty / collectors items

it costs nothing to press cds these dayzz
 

Humanjava

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by deep
I haven't heard an SACD yet myself, but I know that they are something audiophiles like quite a bit...

The use of a medium depends on how feasible / easy it is to get music on to that medium....

So there's a good reason why vinyl is as prolific as it is, not just in the electronic music scene, but in indie rock etc.

Getting vinyl pressed is probably easier than engineering an SACD, as evidenced by how SACD music is relatively limited
If your analog going to SACD is real easy. As for working in it or recording in it ... well its similar though different than analog.

I have the Pink Floyd Dark side of the moon Vinyl of the 30th anivers edition and I have the SACD. Both are good but the SACD kills it. In fact my I bout a $200 SACD player to try out and it kills a refrence turntable tone arm cartribdge combo that is closer to 6K... Working in DSD has that certain something that analog errors on. For and effect I like analog, but as say a DJ or a producer I rather have stuff sound good and not comprimised. www.merging.com under DSD/SACD shows a good graph of the analog DSD thing.

Oh and for the record I still spin Vinyl but am tired of its problems. Esp as a producer. It seems ppl rather settle for worse than better and argue on ignorance rather than facts. For the record I do agree that Vinyl has a nice touch and feel. But that is also an interface issue. I am sure we have heard this argument against with every technology.

An analogy I use it like CD is like listening to a copy of a photo at best a 2d Picture. The Analalog vinyl get you closer but its like still looking through a window. SACD is like its really there and has to be heard to be believed.






Lets keep the argument at least on fact.

;)
 
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DSV

TRIBE Promoter
I still feel vinyl has a certain feeland sound. When you're actually carving a physical grrove into a piece of acetate, it just smooths out the sound and makes the whole thing sound better.

At 50K system, the record will sound better IMO than some screechy ass CD> I don't know about this new SCADE, whatever, shit, but if it's digital, I can't imagagine it sounding as good as a needle moving across the actual grooves of a record froming nice, smooth analog waves.

And the interface issue is a big one. Thetactile nature of vinyl kicks ass. Fly by wire, CD DJ mixing systems just can't provide the same feeling of control over the music as records provide.

But still, a DJ can easily get away with playing CD's all night and still please everyone involved (Eg. Bassnectar).
 

deep

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Humanjava

Lets keep the argument at least on fact.

such as the fact that the most widely used technology is rarely the most state of the art?

let's ask another question, what's cheaper to make and use? say everything got released on SACD rather than vinyl, would that end up costing producers and users more or less? honest question, not rhetorical
 
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labRat

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by DSV
I still feel vinyl has a certain feeland sound. When you're actually carving a physical grrove into a piece of acetate, it just smooths out the sound and makes the whole thing sound better.

At 50K system, the record will sound better IMO than some screechy ass CD> I don't know about this new SCADE, whatever, shit, but if it's digital, I can't imagagine it sounding as good as a needle moving across the actual grooves of a record froming nice, smooth analog waves.
i can never understand statements like these.

are you saying that you can hear the sample-to-sample transition that occurs in a digital recording? like a person walking up and down stairs?

if the music was created digitally, would you not think that a record-version be of less quality since it would have gone through a digital-to-analog conversion? do you not hear the scratching and hiss noise from a record?

if you are going to a highend club that uses things like phazon to control the sound in the venue, it will have to redigitize the output to do it's DSP magic. yet another analog-to-digital conversion, and then back again so we can hear it... more noise added.

granted, the 'feel' of spinning records is one that cannot be replaced, nor probably will.

also, you can always add back the 'warmth' by turning the 'warm' knob up on the digital EQ.
 

kodos

TRIBE Member
<- another casualty of progress. I've been a die-hard vinyl enthusiast for years but those days are over. Vinyl is heavy, impractical, fussy, and frequently skips at events. I'll never lose my interest in collecting vintage releases and such, but no longer purchase any new releases in the vinyl medium.

Surround sound? I can't wait :)
 

fuzzy

TRIBE Member
Maybe because people can not "burn" vinyl

It takes some amount of skill to play it

Its collectable

Richard
 
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why not

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by mrs peacock
Can someone inform me what SACD is?

Thanks
it's a new digital format being introduced by sony/phillips that captures audio in a totally different way.

it's still on a CD, but working on a different principle.

there are some dual layer SACDs being released now that can be played as normal CDs as well, which is a smart way to introduce the format.

i've yet to hear one, but from what i've been told by people who have, it will erase the arguements for analogue mediums.

CDs were never as good as they said they would be, and raising the sampling rates and bit depths were never going to fix all the limitations.

now that i've read a bit about it, it freaks me out how cool this is.

for those interested in the science, here's a bit of cut and paste:

technical


DIRECT STREAM DIGITAL™ (DSD™) ENCODING

Sony and Philips both have a well-known history of accomplishment in Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digitalaudio. Starting in the late 1970’s with commercial 14-bit systems, and moving up to 16-, 18-, 20- and 24-bit systems, these two companies have made an unmatched investment in PCM technology, generating an unequaled string of PCM products. So it’s not casually that these two companies now propose a fundamental move away from PCM.

Successively higher bit rates and higher sampling rates for PCM systems have, in fact, improved sound quality. But the improvements are getting smaller and smaller. And the reason for these diminishing returns is becoming clear: filtering. Every PCM system requires steep filters at the input to absolutely block any signal at or above half the sampling frequency. (In conventional 44.1 kHz sampling, “brick wall” filters must pass 20 kHz audio, yet reject 22.05 kHz — a difficult task.) In addition, re-quantization noise is added by the multi-stage or “cascaded” decimation (downsampling) digital filters used in recording and the multi-stage interpolation (oversampling) digital filters used in playback.

This problem was the inspiration for Direct Stream Digital. By simply eliminating decimation and interpolation in existing processes — we developed a whole new way of capturing audio signal digitally. As in conventional PCM systems, the analog signal is firstconverted to digital by 64x oversampling delta-sigma modulation. The result is a 1-bit digital audio signal. Where conventional systems immediately decimate the 1-bit signal into a PCM code, Direct Stream Digital records the 1-bit pulses directly.



The delta-sigma analog-to-digital converter basically consists of integrator, 1bit quantizer and negative feedback loop path. The amplitude of the input analog signal is represented by the density of pulses output. The density of output pulses increases with increasing input signal amplitude.



Meanwhile digital-to-analog conversion can be as simple as running the pulse train through an analog low-pass filter!

Ultra-high signal-to-noise ratios as required for DSD in the audio band are typically achieved through 5th-order delta-sigma modulator. These effectively shift the noise up in frequency, out of the audio band: noise shaping.

Sony and Philips designed DSD to capture the complete information of today’s best analog systems. The best 30ips half-inch analog recorders can capture frequencies past 50 kHz. DSD can represent this with a frequency response from DC to 100 kHz. To cover the dynamic range of a good analog mixing console, the residual noise power was held at -120 dB through the audio band.

A simplified relationship between analog input (above) and 1 bit digital output pulse train (below) of the delta-sigma analog-to-digital converter (The pulse train has been shaded for clarity.)
A simplified illustration of the effect of noise shaping. The maximum audio frequency, fm, is nominally 20,000 Hz. Noise shaping moves most of the noise power far above the audio band (20kHz-), where it will be inaudible.
A notorious torture-test for recording systems, the 10 kHz square wave (top trace) includes component frequencies well above the audio band. The 16-bit PCM system approximates this with a 10 kHz sine wave (left figure: top trace). In comparison, the 1-bit Direct Stream Digital captures the wave's true shape (right figure: bottom trace).
 

Humanjava

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by why not
this is why people are freaking out:

Exatly, and it also just for the digital ppl gives good argument as why bit depth is not the most important part. Considering its only 1 bit sound but a sample rate of 2.8GHz. Also someone mentioned that its on a cd when I believe the median is a DVD disk that uses Scarlet Book standards as compared to the DVD video format or DVD-A format. One other note is anyone who wants to argue this should at least have a listen before they go an a tangent as to why vinyl is better. OR analog for that matter. SACD can also be dual layer and has one layer that can be a cd layer for regular cd players and of course the SACD can only be read by the apporpriate device. SACD also has encryption so it can not be copied.

I think I mentioned it in a post that SACD sound like when it comes off the analog tape like the master tape itself. When it comes off a DSD master then the difference is amazing.
 
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Operator

TRIBE Promoter
Originally posted by kodos
<- Vinyl is heavy, impractical, fussy, and frequently skips at events
Sure vinyl skips at events, it happens. But it isn't always the vinyl. Could be the needles, the decks for whatever reason, or what the decks are set up on.

CD's skip too.
 

labRat

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by labRat
granted, the 'feel' of spinning records is one that cannot be replaced, nor probably will.
i forgot that final scratch can take care of this issue.

as for this:


that's great and all - it shows exactly what the math proves. what's the impulse response of an analog signal on vinyl?

btw - an average impulse response on a typical loudspeaker is as follows:


so, really, you're only going to get as good as your weakest point.
 

physix

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by zoo
^^ no one presses vinyl except for "dj music" anymore

unless for novelty / collectors items

it costs nothing to press cds these dayzz

that's from a selling standpoint... he's referring to
the EASE in pressing vinyl.

it's relatively easy to press music onto vinyl.

how easy is it to engineer and dupe SACD?
 

tablist

TRIBE Member
Fuck that shit. Vinyl rules. I've yet to rty anything that gives you as much creative options as good old fashion wax. There's so many limiting factors (for me anyways) in all these other mediums. I can see why a techno/house/trance DJ would want something different, but wax is the only way to go for me, and I'm sure any turntablist you ask would tell you the same thing.

This arguement is played out.:)
 
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