• Hi Guest: Welcome to TRIBE, the online home of TRIBE MAGAZINE. If you'd like to post here, or reply to existing posts on TRIBE, you first have to register. Join us!

Trudeau is against the Canadian worker

Maui

TRIBE Member
I don't now what the big deal is with nuclear. If it's properly done it's safe. People just get freaked out because it's rather exciting when things don't go as planned.

lol. Yes of course it is. So you've signed up to have the waste buried under your backyard right?

You realize we are still consuming the nuclear radiation from the atmospheric and underwater bombs they set off back in the day right? Entire towns in the U.S came down with cancer during the testing....
 
Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

praktik

TRIBE Member
Thats fear mongering. We should fear gas stations in our neighbourhoods as much or more than nuclear waste, if we really appreciated risk well.

Nuclear Waste: The Bacon Is More Likely To Get You First. That And Petrol Stations. - New Matilda

Let’s start with an analogy and consider petrol stations. Has the risk from a petrol station exploding and levelling a three square kilometer area ever kept you sleepless? Why not? If you could ignite the entire supply of petrol at a large modern petrol station, the energy would be equivalent to about half an Hiroshima sized atomic bomb. So, if you did it right, you could indeed lay waste to about three square kilometers.

So why is nobody frightened?

I suspect people aren’t worried because petrol stations and petrol station accidents are familiar. People aren’t worried because they have experience of the normal scale and rarity of petrol station accidents. We aren’t worried precisely because we know they go bang and kill people from time to time; but not very often.

Any attempt at scaring people with stories of us being just one spark away from Armageddon would probably prompt requests for proof. And that would involve some weird story about a massive combustion chamber fed by banks of carburetors generating a careful fuel-air mixture and giant spark plugs which everybody would think was simply nutty.

But nuclear waste isn’t familiar, never goes bang, never kills people, is routinely transported without incident in countries all over the planet. This paradoxically makes it that much easier to maintain a fiction of fear.​
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Anyway, ya I'd sign up for nuclear waste near my community - because it can be stored completely safely. And by supporting carbon free nuclear power, I'll be a big part of making us hit our targets and slow down this warming juggernaut we set going a few hundred years ago and kept feeding!

From the link:

There was actually a waste repository accident in the US in 2014. A truck hauling salt caught fire, and 22 workers got about the same radiation dose as if they’d done three cross-country (US) flights. It would perhaps help if we had a lot more such accidents so people can get used to the fact that waste accidents really are trivial… except for the smoke and the fire; both of which posed a far bigger risk to the workers.

For three decades the anti-nuclear movement has been telling people that a nuclear waste repository will be dangerous and never provided a credible story on how one could go wrong on a catastrophic scale. Not one. Not in the short term or in the very long term.

There are many credible mechanisms for repository failure and they are all dutifully examined by repository designers. Here’s a summary from the Yucca Mountain repository EIS in the US. The biggest risk involved in building and operating this repository is the same as the biggest risk in most large projects involving lots of trucks… traffic accidents.

Over the 24 years of repository operation they expect 10-17 fatalities among workers commuting.

But mundane deaths are never of interest to purveyors of horror. Wind and solar power as it happens, both involve the mining, manufacture and transport of vastly more stuff than nuclear power, and hence are far more dangerous and environmentally destructive. But nobody gets agitated about actual death and destruction compared to fictional future fantasies.

The Yucca EIS calculated that people living in the vicinity (within 18km) of the repository a million years from now, under much warmer conditions, would receive an extra 1.5 milli Sieverts of radiation annually. People living in parts of Kerala in Southern India get some 68 milli Sieverts of radiation annually over and above normal background rates, and their cancer rate is about a third of that in the US or Australia. But the big causes of the differences in cancer rates are of no interest to purveyors of radiation porn.

Is there any credible mechanism to generate significant risk from a high level waste repository? What sort of repository? You mean there’s more than one kind? Of course.

The South Australian Royal Commission included details on a few that are being planned or under construction. They each used a different methodology. This isn’t a problem with a single brilliant and ingenious solution. Any country will have the kinds of skilled people that can produce a credible solution suitable to the geography at hand.

The French design uses a hole dug into clay; the Fins are digging into granite.

The short answer is that no, there is no credible catastrophe scenario. There is no credible scenario that poses a significant risk.

I tend to define significant risk as any risk exceeding that of a bacon habit. So you can crash planes into a waste repository, you can crash them into the casks of waste being transported to the repository and apart from the obvious risks to the truckies and pilots, the risk to the public is still zero to trivial, and not in any way comparable to a bacon habit.​
 

Maui

TRIBE Member
Thats fear mongering. We should fear gas stations in our neighbourhoods as much or more than nuclear waste, if we really appreciated risk well.

Nuclear Waste: The Bacon Is More Likely To Get You First. That And Petrol Stations. - New Matilda

Let’s start with an analogy and consider petrol stations. Has the risk from a petrol station exploding and levelling a three square kilometer area ever kept you sleepless? Why not? If you could ignite the entire supply of petrol at a large modern petrol station, the energy would be equivalent to about half an Hiroshima sized atomic bomb. So, if you did it right, you could indeed lay waste to about three square kilometers.

So why is nobody frightened?

I suspect people aren’t worried because petrol stations and petrol station accidents are familiar. People aren’t worried because they have experience of the normal scale and rarity of petrol station accidents. We aren’t worried precisely because we know they go bang and kill people from time to time; but not very often.

Any attempt at scaring people with stories of us being just one spark away from Armageddon would probably prompt requests for proof. And that would involve some weird story about a massive combustion chamber fed by banks of carburetors generating a careful fuel-air mixture and giant spark plugs which everybody would think was simply nutty.

But nuclear waste isn’t familiar, never goes bang, never kills people, is routinely transported without incident in countries all over the planet. This paradoxically makes it that much easier to maintain a fiction of fear.​




That is the STUPIDEST analogy I've ever seen in my entire life. Gas stations don't blow up and wipe out 3 km area's. Nuclear waste is not gasoline. LOL WOW.
 

Maui

TRIBE Member
Anyway, ya I'd sign up for nuclear waste near my community - because it can be stored completely safely.

You've jumped the shark bro. Sorry I can't take you seriously anymore. You want to use gasoline as an example, there is not a pipeline of any sort ever that has not leaked it's product. Period. There is only one lower level (not nuclear, they still haven't stored a single ounce of that anywhere) waste being stored at a site in the U.S. and IT ALREADY HAD A FUCKING LEAK.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

praktik

TRIBE Member
That is the STUPIDEST analogy I've ever seen in my entire life. Gas stations don't blow up and wipe out 3 km area's. Nuclear waste is not gasoline. LOL WOW.
i can't help it if you first reaction to things you don't understand is to say they're stupid

the information is there for other, more reasonable people to assess.

The issue is one of risk perception, and the gas station example is a great way to illustrate the silliness of the human condition: rating some risks much lower than they should be, and others way higher - often for arbitrary reasons.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
You've jumped the shark bro. Sorry I can't take you seriously anymore. You want to use gasoline as an example, there is not a pipeline of any sort ever that has not leaked it's product. Period. There is only one lower level (not nuclear, they still haven't stored a single ounce of that anywhere) waste being stored at a site in the U.S. and IT ALREADY HAD A FUCKING LEAK.

I urge you to reconsider that article in full, i can't help it if you can't help but leap to derision instead of engagement. I'll be here when you're ready to have a conversation.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Same Issues, Different Stories -- Talking Nuclear Waste and Risk Perception with Suzanne Waldman

This was a great interview:

What can nuclear waste management tell us about risk perception?

There are two major ways people think about nuclear waste. One, which is the technocratic approach, says it’s manageable—it’s an engineering problem but not an overwhelming one, and we have developed techniques to handle the volatility of nuclear waste to keep people and ecosystems safe from it. Then there’s the anti-nuclear approach, which says that nuclear waste is uniquely toxic, it’s toxic for a distinctly long time, and any engineering approach that’s developed to manage nuclear waste over the timeframes that it remains dangerous is hubris.

There’s not a lot of middle ground or dialogue between those two extremes. So I started thinking more about risk, and how people think about risk, and I went through all the different risk perception theories. The way most people divide up risk perception is that experts and lay citizens see risk differently. Experts see it in an analytical way that involves numbers and measurements and standards, and people see it in a more human way, and in a more community-based way, and they understand that humans are fallible. They’ve maybe even experienced the fallibility of engineering—they’ve seen things go wrong—and they bring that awareness. They also might be frightened because of things they’ve read or seen, maybe even in an exaggerated way because a lot of media attention has been drawn to it.

There are different theories that come from different fields about who’s more right. The psychologists usually think that the experts are more right—they’re more accurate in how they think about risk and how they compare risk. The sociologists generally think that the people are more right, that they’re more tuned in to human reality and what communities need. So the psychologists’ solution is that citizens need more information about risk that’s better communicated. The sociologists say citizens need more input into decisions about risk. But neither risk communication nor this expansion of public dialogue has really resolved or dissolved these huge oppositions about nuclear waste.

I then turned to the works of Dan Kahan. He implies that we have to get out of this experts-versus-citizens division—he finds that all quite destructive. Instead, he turns to the cultural theories of risk developed by anthropologists like Mary Douglas, who noted that it’s like we’re all in different tribes when we think about risk. And really “experts” and “citizens” don’t describe the opposition. Because different experts are in different tribes, and different citizens are in different tribes, and certain citizens prefer different experts, and vice versa. So it’s almost better to think about it in a tribal way.

This theory goes together with some other theories that are pretty respected in thinking about policy—such as policy frame theory, which says that people look at things through different frames. Which leads to questions: How do you possibly coordinate the difference of frames that people bring to a subject like nuclear waste? I would say that is a harder question, and I decided to take a stab at it.​
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
The gas station analogy was just an exercise Maui - a way to get you to think about what you consider a "risk" and what you consider "not a risk".

Risk perception is fascinating, and it plays a huge part in debates of science on matters like nuclear, climate change (risk of action vs inaction), GMOs (the "black swan" GMO myth of a GMO that could kill us all), vaccines (risk of vaccine is seen as greater than risk of disease).

There are many ways we can play with examples to help us gauge our risk calculations and show the ways where we may have under or overcounted it... Gas station example is designed not to make you freak out about having a gas station in your neighbourhood, but more about WHY you don't freak out about that, but freak out about other things with just as much or less of a risk profile.

Im not really that troubled by gas stations OR nuclear waste, and i strongly support nuclear as an essential part of going carbon free.
 

ndrwrld

TRIBE Member
Trudeau’s getting beaten up by bumper-stickers
a good comment from this page...

Trudeau's domestic neoliberal advisors and there global neoliberal advisors tell Trudeau what his policies will be. They then send him out to explain to Canadians why he made a certain decision on a particular policy. Trudeau as Prime Minister does not govern for Canadians. He governs as mentioned before behind closed doors and in support of special interest groups.

He is in way over his head. He acts more like a PR man, sort of a front man for the liberal party, than a Prime Minister, who should be governing for the people of Canada.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Trudeau’s getting beaten up by bumper-stickers
a good comment from this page...

Trudeau's domestic neoliberal advisors and there global neoliberal advisors tell Trudeau what his policies will be. They then send him out to explain to Canadians why he made a certain decision on a particular policy. Trudeau as Prime Minister does not govern for Canadians. He governs as mentioned before behind closed doors and in support of special interest groups.

He is in way over his head. He acts more like a PR man, sort of a front man for the liberal party, than a Prime Minister, who should be governing for the people of Canada.

Should have voted for Harper if you dislike Trudeau's method of "leading". Who am I kidding.

Edit: Trudeau's vapid style was plain to see for those who were looking. That's why we have no leadership.
 
Last edited:
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Wow. just wow.

Every job that Canada created last year was part-time: TD

capture2.png
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Interesting shifts in the Trudeau cabinet. Freeland looks to be the most all-around skilled Minister of the Libs. Poor Dion. Quite a likeable fellow but easily appearing to be less-than-strong.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders
Top