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Trudeau is against the Canadian worker

praktik

TRIBE Member
I was disputing your characterization of carbon pricing as:

A) ineffective
B) only enriches elites

These claims are both untrue, and I've provided evidence accordingly.

If you have now moved the goalposts to a new claim - that other, stronger ways to fight climate change exist- you won't get any disagreement with me, but you might from stakeholders in the real world that would be unlikely to be all that pleased with "legislating fossil fuels out of existence"

Other things could even be weather modification techniques to combat global warming, I'd support that too.

Give me a magic wand to make A) legislating fossil fuels out of existence or B) some new technique to cool the earth with cool new tech - and we can wave that magic wand together maybe wickedken.

But the fact other tools exist to make a difference for the climate does not negate the fact you have mischaracterized carbon pricing multiple times in this thread and that corrections have been made, with evidence, to counter your mischaracterizations.
 
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wickedken

TRIBE Member
I said it was a half-measure. I stand by my claim that it will enrich elites. I will bet you $100 that within 5 years time some sort of financial scandal re this carbon market and specifically with regard to Ontario will become known.
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Well let me just ask you: why do you think "the method to combat climate change" is being presented as an economic exercise, rather than eliminating the source of carbon emissions?
 
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wickedken

TRIBE Member
Great, I agree and I think many scientists are equally as concerned. So aren't you at all suspicious why Ontario ("so concerned with environment Wynne") hasn't done something more drastic? California arbitrarily capped emissions for vehicles sold in that state vehicles decades ago, so the precedent is there.

I mean, I guess you have such faith in Wynne/Liberal management over... anything that you are comfortable with this?
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
I said it was a half-measure. I stand by my claim that it will enrich elites. I will bet you $100 that within 5 years time some sort of financial scandal re this carbon market and specifically with regard to Ontario will become known.

So where does the "enrichment of elites" come in with respect to the status quo and all the interests who rely on fossil fuels for their status?

If you wish to be most opposed to "elite enrichment" I don't know why you wouldn't prefer new blood disrupting the elites and making the shieks and the Russian kleptocracy work harder for their rubles, which come from fossil fuels today.
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Take a look at the market for carbon credits. The spread is ~10%. Don't forget none of these companies will actually spend their own money for these credits - they get it from regular folk.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Great, I agree and I think many scientists are equally as concerned....California arbitrarily capped emissions for vehicles sold in that state vehicles decades ago, so the precedent is there.

I mean, I guess you have such faith in Wynne/Liberal management over... anything that you are comfortable with this?

Im way beyond thinking about this particular term for this particular premier with this particular party - doesn't matter who's in power. What matters is each incremental "half measure", as you put it, stands to save us billions of dollars because even though we may not be able to halt all the warming our outputs have "baked in" for the next few decades, small changes now can have big effects later - a few feet less sea level rise can mean the difference between saving cities, economic engines, from destruction.

We're probably going to be way past 2 degrees for this century, but here is a look at the difference between 1.5-2 degrees:

1.5C-vs-2C-final-843x1024.jpg


So I welcome the pricing of carbon, even if more needs to be done - even if I think we should be looking at modification techniques to have ready when staple crops are failing and sea level rises of 4-6 feet hit us by 2100 after the greenland ice sheet slips in halfway through this century (we'll be happy we have these ready then, even if right now this seems like a drastic idea).


So aren't you at all suspicious why Ontario ("so concerned with environment Wynne") hasn't done something more drastic?

No, why would I be? It makes perfect sense that we haven't taken much more action because we're coming out of two decades of misinformation on climate science by vested interests (elites who "enrich" themselves on fossil fuels and their contrarian allies) and two decades of climate change being politicized into a partisan issue. Our societies - around the globe - have powerful elites and allies around the world who have a stake in NOT pursuing any change to a system which requires crazy amounts of fossil fuels just to function - its a huge anchor for the status quo. Its also a perfect collective action problem, and this study had an interesting overview of that problem and what to do about it. I mean why stop at wynne? Your focus is too near term, we shouldn't be at all "suspicious" why the Wynne/Harper/Chretien/Clinton/Blair/Cameron/Bush/Putin governments haven't done much for climate change and why we are likely to pay a steep price for their inaction. Its pretty obvious why serious climate change policies haven't happened.

I mean when they try - people just bitch and moan about "the economy" and "taxes" and whatever partisan shit that obsesses them instead of welcoming and supporting ANY change that could reduce our GHG output no matter who's in power, since any such change would be a better investment than almost any other - since we are talking about trillions of dollars of wealth around the world that are at risk of collapsing under the stresses our interconnected society will face over the next 200 years and even if we only slow warming we will be saving lives and money with every bit we slow it down by!
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Fair enough. There's definitely value in getting some sort of decrease in emissions. I'm just thinking that this program will be one of those that try to do something, but end up not meeting it's goals.

I'm also thinking in terms of actions that have already been done and have worked, for example the CFC freeze and California's regulations.

And I'm also thinking in terms of the abysmal track record of Ontario governments of doing anything correctly and without a scandal of some sort.

Plus, in relative economic investment terms, there will be a definite disadvantage for Canadian workers vis-a-vis Americans as things here get more expensive.

So I'm thinking more big picture, and not limiting it to just another take on carbon taxes.

Who knows.... with the kerfuffle over electricity and rising bills maybe this won't last long.
 
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Maui

TRIBE Member
Nuclear should be a part of our carbon strategy - carbon is a way bigger problem than anything associated with nuclear power generation. I know Rocky you and I are completely on the same page with our motivation to take action to fight climate change and to support policy efforts in this direction - it just saddens me that we will not be as effective at this objective if the environmentalist activists pushing for this are split on nuclear power.

Whatever strategy we decide? If nuclear is not a part of it we will be less effective than we otherwise could have been.

In defence of nuclear power - Mark Lynas


Mark Lynas? Is this the same shill for the corporate GMO corporations? Now he's hocking Nuclear power too? hahahhahahahhahahhahhaha Holy mother of jesus just when I thought the internet couldn't provide me with anything more ridiculous than before, here it is again not letting me down. hahhahahhahahhaa

Fucking gold!
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
He's not a shill for GMO corporations - he was huge in starting the anti-gmo movement in europe - burned crops of GMO fields for greenpeace even.

He has the honesty of his convictions and is not for sale, Im sorry its inconvenient for you to admit that someone might support this kind of technology without being a "shill" for Monsatan


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/25/opinion/sunday/how-i-got-converted-to-gmo-food.html?_r=1

How I Got Converted to G.M.O. Food
By MARK LYNASAPRIL 24, 2015

NAIROBI, Kenya — Mohammed Rahman doesn’t know it yet, but his small farm in central Bangladesh is globally significant. Mr. Rahman, a smallholder farmer in Krishnapur, about 60 miles northwest of the capital, Dhaka, grows eggplant on his meager acre of waterlogged land.

As we squatted in the muddy field, examining the lush green foliage and shiny purple fruits, he explained how, for the first time this season, he had been able to stop using pesticides. This was thanks to a new pest-resistant variety of eggplant supplied by the government-run Bangladesh Agricultural Research Institute.

Despite a recent hailstorm, the weather had been kind, and the new crop flourished. Productivity nearly doubled. Mr. Rahman had already harvested the small plot 10 times, he said, and sold the brinjal (eggplant’s name in the region) labeled “insecticide free” at a small premium in the local market. Now, with increased profits, he looked forward to being able to lift his family further out of poverty. I could see why this was so urgent: Half a dozen shirtless kids gathered around, clamoring for attention. They all looked stunted by malnutrition.

In a rational world, Mr. Rahman would be receiving support from all sides. He is improving the environment and tackling poverty. Yet the visit was rushed, and my escorts from the research institute were nervous about permitting me to speak with him at all.

The new variety had been subjected to incendiary coverage in the local press, and campaign groups based in Dhaka were suing to have the pest-resistant eggplant banned. Activists had visited some of the fields and tried to pressure the farmers to uproot their crops. Our guides from the institute warned that there was a continuing threat of violence — and they were clearly keen to leave.

Why was there such controversy? Because Mr. Rahman’s pest-resistant eggplant was produced using genetic modification. A gene transferred from a soil bacterium, Bacillus thuringiensis (more commonly known by the abbreviation “Bt”), produces a protein that kills the Fruit and Shoot Borer, a species of moth whose larvae feed on the eggplant, without the need for pesticide sprays. (The protein is entirely nontoxic to other insects and indeed humans.)

Conventional eggplant farmers in Bangladesh are forced to spray their crops as many as 140 times during the growing season, and pesticide poisoning is a chronic health problem in rural areas. But because Bt brinjal is a hated G.M.O., or genetically modified organism, it is Public Enemy No.1 to environmental groups everywhere.

The stakes are especially high because Mr. Rahman is one of only 108 farmers in Bangladesh currently permitted to try out the new variety. Moreover, this is among the first genetically modified food crops to be grown by farmers anywhere in the developing world. Virtually every crop, in every other country, has so far been blocked.

In neighboring India, green campaigners managed to secure a nationwide moratorium against the genetically modified eggplant in 2010. In the Philippines, a Greenpeace-led coalition has tied up the variety in litigation for two years. Greenpeace activists took the precaution of wrecking field trials first, by pulling up the plants.

I, too, was once in that activist camp. A lifelong environmentalist, I opposed genetically modified foods in the past. Fifteen years ago, I even participated in vandalizing field trials in Britain. Then I changed my mind.

After writing two books on the science of climate change, I decided I could no longer continue taking a pro-science position on global warming and an anti-science position on G.M.O.s.

There is an equivalent level of scientific consensus on both issues, I realized, that climate change is real and genetically modified foods are safe. I could not defend the expert consensus on one issue while opposing it on the other.


In Africa, however, countries have fallen like dominoes to anti-G.M. campaigns. I am writing this at a biotechnology conference in Nairobi, where the government slapped a G.M.O. import ban in 2012 after activists brandished pictures of rats with tumors and claimed that G.M. foods caused cancer.

The origin of the scare was a French scientific paper that was later retracted by the journal in which it was originally published because of numerous flaws in methodology. Yet Kenya’s ban remains, creating a food-trade bottleneck that will raise prices, worsening malnutrition and increasing poverty for millions.

In Uganda, the valuable banana crop is being devastated by a new disease called bacterial wilt, while the starchy cassava, a subsistence staple, has been hit by two deadly viruses. Biotech scientists have produced resistant varieties of both crops using genetic modification, but anti-G.M.O. groups have successfully prevented the Ugandan Parliament from passing a biosafety law necessary for their release.

An eminent Ghanaian scientist whom I met recently had received such a high level of harassment from campaigners that he was considering taking a dossier to the police. Activists in his country have also gone to court to stall progress in biotech development.

The environmental movement’s war against genetic engineering has led to a deepening rift with the scientific community. A recent survey by the Pew Research Center and the American Association for the Advancement of Science showed a greater gap between scientists and the public on G.M.O.s than on any other scientific controversy: While 88 percent of association scientists agreed it was safe to eat genetically modified foods, only 37 percent of the public did — a gap in perceptions of 51 points. (The gap on climate change was 37 points; on childhood vaccinations, 18 points.)

On genetic engineering, environmentalists have been markedly more successful than climate change deniers or anti-vaccination campaigners in undermining public understanding of science. The scientific community is losing this battle. If you need visual confirmation of that, try a Google Images search for the term “G.M.O.” Scary pictures proliferate, from an archetypal evil scientist injecting tomatoes with a syringe — an utterly inaccurate representation of the real process of genetic engineering — to tumor-riddled rats and ghoulish chimeras like fish-apples.

In Europe, leaders in Brussels propose to empower all member states of the European Union to ban genetically modified crops, if they so wish. Hungary has even written anti-G.M.O. ideology into its Constitution. Peru has enacted a 10-year moratorium.

As someone who participated in the early anti-G.M.O. movement, I feel I owe a debt to Mr. Rahman and other farmers in developing countries who could benefit from this technology. At Cornell, I am working to amplify the voices of farmers and scientists in a more informed conversation about what biotechnology can bring to food security and environmental protection.

No one claims that biotech is a silver bullet. The technology of genetic modification can’t make the rains come on time or ensure that farmers in Africa have stronger land rights. But improved seed genetics can make a contribution in all sorts of ways: It can increase disease resistance and drought tolerance, which are especially important as climate change continues to bite; and it can help tackle hidden malnutritional problems like vitamin A deficiency.

We need this technology. We must not let the green movement stand in its way.​
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Why would Mark Lynas support nuclear technology and biotech?

because he's a smart environmentalist who prizes pragmatism over ideology
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
I don't now what the big deal is with nuclear. If it's properly done it's safe. People just get freaked out because it's rather exciting when things don't go as planned.
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
Its kind of weird on the pipeline stuff - the fact is it shouldn't be valued so high since the high cost of burning all the stuff we have in the ground means the present-value of reserves, and thus most of the paper wealth of our energy titans, is incredibly over-valued.

So maybe people wouldn't be salivating to build all this infrastructure if this correction was already starting to happen on the value of oil reserves.

BUT

As long as we are in the business of extracting and delivering oil, there's actually a lower carbon footprint associated with pipeline infrastructure.

So if we're going to extract a million barrels, and we succeed in killing pipelines, then we're going to be extracting and transporting that million barrels with methods that mean the carbon footprint is higher and where the chance of accident is higher (both are higher with say, giant oil tanker ships or trains).

So the pragmatist in me is cool with the idea of a pipeline vs other methods of transporting oil.

When it comes to some pipeline disputes it isn't just about oil and energy - it's also about indegenous rights in some disputes in BC and of course Standing Rock.

This brings other issues into the mix that may cause me to come to a different conclusion, one not just rooted in issues of climate and energy.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
This was interesting:

The Rockefeller Family Fund vs. Exxon

Earlier this year our organization, the Rockefeller Family Fund (RFF), announced that it would divest its holdings in fossil fuel companies. We mean to do this gradually, but in a public statement we singled out ExxonMobil for immediate divestment because of its “morally reprehensible conduct.”1 For over a quarter-century the company tried to deceive policymakers and the public about the realities of climate change, protecting its profits at the cost of immense damage to life on this planet.

Our criticism carries a certain historical irony. John D. Rockefeller founded Standard Oil, and ExxonMobil is Standard Oil’s largest direct descendant. In a sense we were turning against the company where most of the Rockefeller family’s wealth was created. (Other members of the Rockefeller family have been trying to get ExxonMobil to change its behavior for over a decade.) Approached by some reporters for comment, an ExxonMobil spokesman replied, “It’s not surprising that they’re divesting from the company since they’re already funding a conspiracy against us.”2

What we had funded was an investigative journalism project. With help from other public charities and foundations, including the Rockefeller Brothers Fund (RBF), we paid for a team of independent reporters from Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism to try to determine what Exxon and other US oil companies had really known about climate science, and when. Such an investigation seemed promising because Exxon, in particular, has been a leader of the movement to deny the facts of climate change.3 Often working indirectly through front groups, it sponsored many of the scientists and think tanks that have sought to obfuscate the scientific consensus about the changing climate, and it participated in those efforts through its paid advertisements and the statements of its executives.
 

Wiseman

TRIBE Member
Its kind of weird on the pipeline stuff - the fact is it shouldn't be valued so high since the high cost of burning all the stuff we have in the ground means the present-value of reserves, and thus most of the paper wealth of our energy titans, is incredibly over-valued.

So maybe people wouldn't be salivating to build all this infrastructure if this correction was already starting to happen on the value of oil reserves.

BUT

As long as we are in the business of extracting and delivering oil, there's actually a lower carbon footprint associated with pipeline infrastructure.

So if we're going to extract a million barrels, and we succeed in killing pipelines, then we're going to be extracting and transporting that million barrels with methods that mean the carbon footprint is higher and where the chance of accident is higher (both are higher with say, giant oil tanker ships or trains).

So the pragmatist in me is cool with the idea of a pipeline vs other methods of transporting oil.

When it comes to some pipeline disputes it isn't just about oil and energy - it's also about indegenous rights in some disputes in BC and of course Standing Rock.

This brings other issues into the mix that may cause me to come to a different conclusion, one not just rooted in issues of climate and energy.


Exactly. Even if the goal is to phase out fossil fuels as a primary energy source that's not a switch that can be turned off overnight. Actually that's not a switch that can ever be completely turned off as realistically Oil will always be used for some things we just need to get it's use down.

So if you accept that we can't just stop using oil then you also accept that it needs to move around and Pipelines seem to be the best option. The problem is that these issues come down to simplistic "black and white" "for or against" binary discussions with extremely poor public understanding of risk analysis.

I would be considered very left wing by most. But then I say I support Pipelines and Renewable energy that Nuclear is the most Green energy and believe in man-made climate change. I believe Organic is a scam and that GMOs should be supported.

There is very little support for true skepticism and nuance these days.

Standing Rock is an excellent example of this. People are all about drawing battle lines on that issue then actually looking at the facts and forming a reasonable response.
 

Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member
I think the cancelled oil project will be done another way at a later date to remediate the environmental risks to big bear forest
 
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