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Trudeau is against the Canadian worker

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Doesn't make much sense - the idea of pricing carbon appropriately is to incentivize a "changing use of fossil fuels" - because price is one of the best ways behaviour is influenced in a market economy. So you price carbon so that you "change use of fossil fuels".

I think the best way to achieve the goal is to flat out eliminate the use of fossil fuels by legislation. This can be done over a time period to lessen shocks to society and to economy. Carbon pricing is less than a half-measure and serves only to enrich connected elites.

Going back to the Canadian worker, these less-than-half measures IMO won't do anything to achieve their stated goals, only will only disadvantage the already economically hurting average Canadian as other jurisdictions chart their own differing course.

If the goal is actually to eliminate and/or markedly reduce the use of fossil fuels, then governments already have the power to do so. Instead, the implementation of market-based measures will only benefit (enrich) those who are politically connected while carbon-users are made to play a shell game.

If the goal is for actual change, then make the change.

Because right now it seems like the goal is to tax, rather than make change.
 
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Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Can you explain how this is, or should I read back farther in this thread?

I think that carbon-pricing is less-than-a-half measure because it's goal is to reduce carbon emissions, however both measures don't directly address the cause of the issue but rather incentivize behaviour, as Praktik has said.

Cap-and-trade allows the generation of carbon credits which can be purchased and used to offset pollution. This results in essentially a shell game where carbon emissions are shifted around from relative non-polluters to polluters such that its more economically feasible to purchase credits rather than reduce pollution. For example, why would a coal power plant install expensive filters when they can buy credits to offset their emissions if it's cheaper to do so.

Carbon taxation is similar to taxes on cigarettes, higher taxes in theory to reduce demand. The issue here is that some demand is inelastic. For example, it's not an option to reduce your heat in winter, and by using those natural gas resources you are incurring a carbon cost, hence will be taxed. Further, since everything in modern society is somehow using those resources, everything will be taxed: your food was trucked in, your clothes took energy to make, and then of course the energy you consume by using a computer or TV. Some things you can reduce, some things you simply can't, and hence it becomes a simple penalty/cost for using resources in addition to what you are already incurring.

The enrichment part comes from the fact that both methods require some sort of market place or bureaucracy to oversee and/or manage, and if you are not a company, the end user (you, the common Canadian worker) will pay for all of this as companies include this as a cost of doing business and blend it into the cost of providing services.

So you will end up paying for something that won't really achieve what is necessary to address the dire environmental situation you and prakrit have both pointed out. Instead, you will end up paying more money for this system and the people who run it as opposed to what you actually want to pay for, the goal of reducing emissions. When you consider this in relation to Canada/US, the Canadian cost of living would be relatively higher than the US, and put us at an economic disadvantage for locating, e.g. manufacturing jobs.

Economics isn't always the answer. I previously gave the example of CFCs which was outright eliminated via legislation (and international treaty) in many applications, and now the ozone situation is much improved.

Why is it that this is different? Why not, let's phase out fossil fuel cars and from 2025 only electric cars can be manufactured? Why not build nuclear plants and in 15 years when they are constructed simply close all the coal and natural gas plants?

You obviously care for this issue and I agree, it's pretty convincing that something needs to be done, and bickering around with a scheme that could reduce emissions doesn't really solve anything but fits nicely into a get-rich-quick scheme for consultants, companies to manage the marketplace, the whole bureaucracy that does... something... and then YOU pay.
 

Rocky

TRIBE Member
Sounds reasonable.

Is there evidence that this cap-and-trade doesn't work to reduce emissions? Or, rather, to Praktik (Patrick), is there any evidence to suggest that cap-and-trade does work to reduce emissions?

What I want to know is what's up with this system of Capitalism? Shouldn't we already have electric cars by now? I thought Capitalism and the profit motive were supposed to promote innovation. That, too often, doesn't seem to be the case.

Energy-then-and-now.jpg
 

JamesM

TRIBE Member
Sounds reasonable.

Is there evidence that this cap-and-trade doesn't work to reduce emissions? Or, rather, to Praktik (Patrick), is there any evidence to suggest that cap-and-trade does work to reduce emissions?

What I want to know is what's up with this system of Capitalism? Shouldn't we already have electric cars by now? I thought Capitalism and the profit motive were supposed to promote innovation. That, too often, doesn't seem to be the case.

Energy-then-and-now.jpg

Well in terms like that, we spend $120+ a month to have that computer on bell, and we pay $120+ a month for gas for cars. So they still cancel.

Most people with a smart phone still pay for virtual gas.
 
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JamesM

TRIBE Member
Why is it that this is different? Why not, let's phase out fossil fuel cars and from 2025 only electric cars can be manufactured? Why not build nuclear plants and in 15 years when they are constructed simply close all the coal and natural gas plants?

Yeah, because it costs on average what 10 billion to build a nuclear power plant? Might be even more now that Harper sold atomic energy to a for profit first corporation, for a bag of pucks. Your energy bill will be unrealistic once the coal plants are blown up, in favour of new nuclear power plant construction.

Let's hope ITER in France can make some real progress by 2050.
 
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wickedken

TRIBE Member
Trudeau unwise to signal intention to re-write NAFTA, Trump insider Rick Santorum says

“You’re governed by a bunch of liberals up here who have different agendas. They have the green agenda. They have an immigration agenda. They have agendas that are not the Trump agenda — and shouldn’t be — because they are not in the best interests of working people in Canada and they’re not in the best interests of working people in the U.S.”

Not that he's much to pay attention to.
 
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wickedken

TRIBE Member
There's no better way to see how shitty and elitist the regime is than to quote directly from Kathleen Wynne. It pretty much captures the moral choice they make to serve the causes important to them - and not the common Canadian worker. It's as bad as putting some sort of social services in a residential neighbourhood and "not paying attention" to the effects on that neighbourhood. These people don't care about you.

"In a speech to party faithful at the Ontario Liberal annual general meeting today in Ottawa, Wynne says she takes responsibility "for not paying close enough attention to some of the daily stresses in Ontarians' lives."

She says while she is proud of the work done to remove coal from the system and ensure adequate supply, it is unacceptable that some people have to choose between paying for food and heating."

Wynne calls high electricity prices her 'mistake'
 
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Maui

TRIBE Member
I think the best way to achieve the goal is to flat out eliminate the use of fossil fuels by legislation. This can be done over a time period to lessen shocks to society and to economy. Carbon pricing is less than a half-measure and serves only to enrich connected elites.

Going back to the Canadian worker, these less-than-half measures IMO won't do anything to achieve their stated goals, only will only disadvantage the already economically hurting average Canadian as other jurisdictions chart their own differing course.

If the goal is actually to eliminate and/or markedly reduce the use of fossil fuels, then governments already have the power to do so. Instead, the implementation of market-based measures will only benefit (enrich) those who are politically connected while carbon-users are made to play a shell game.

If the goal is for actual change, then make the change.

Because right now it seems like the goal is to tax, rather than make change.

You've hit the nail on the head. I've been paying attention to the undertones on a very wide variety of social media sites for awhile now, and I could have told you Trump was going to win. And in fact these same sentiments ARE being held among Canadians. There will be a rude awakening next election I figure.

Trumps first plan of action. Thank god someone is going to help us. Trudeau can go suck a dick.


How Trump's opposition to trade deals could help Canadian workers
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Except he's wrong about

"Carbon pricing is less than a half-measure and serves only to enrich connected elites"

There's evidence about successful carbon pricing posted in this very thread that debunks this claim
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Carbon pricing helps not hurts:

Real-World Example
Ten northeastern states in the USA (Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, and Vermont) implemented a carbon cap and trade system which will reduce their CO2 emissions from the power sector by 10% by 2018 in the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI). The RGGI recently commissioned a study to examine the impacts of the system, and the results give us a real-world example which is broadly consistent with the economic study predictions of benefits outweighing costs.

The study found that by investing carbon funds in energy efficiency and renewable energy programs, the states achieved $3–4 savings for every dollar invested. The program also created thousands of jobs (18,000 job years – that is, the equivalent of 18,000 full-time jobs that last one year), and individuals and businesses who took advantage of the energy efficiency programs funded by the carbon pricing system actually saw their energy bills drop.

A subsequent study found that the RGGI carbon cap pricing system added $1.6 billion in value to the economies of participating states, set the stage for $1.1 billion in ratepayer savings, and created 16,000 jobs in its first three years of implementation. RGGI provides us with a real-world example of carbon pricing benefits exceeding the costs several times over.​

Like this, and plenty of other stuff on the previous page
 

Maui

TRIBE Member
I was referring more to Trudeau wanting to go along with Free Trade deals. The carbon tax I could really care less about.
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Except he's wrong about

"Carbon pricing is less than a half-measure and serves only to enrich connected elites"

There's evidence about successful carbon pricing posted in this very thread that debunks this claim


Once again you are missing the point. Why is there an economic solution to a science problem that might work when you are aware of a legislative solution that will work? Legislate the use of fossil fuels out of existence within a certain time frame. Doing otherwise reeks of a half-measure and certainly impacts different people differently.
 
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