• Hi Guest: Welcome to TRIBE, the online home of TRIBE MAGAZINE. If you'd like to post here, or reply to existing posts on TRIBE, you first have to register. Join us!

Toronto to consider safe-injection sites

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
plus you willingness to blame the residents for witnessing lewd acts or being victimized by what you guys call the "ne'erdowells".

You are being a giant baby. Do you honestly think I blame you for witnessing the dude in front of the restaurant? I was answering a ridiculous question by giving a ridiculous answer.

By the way, the derelicts are also residents of the community.
 
Cannabis Seed Wedding Bands

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
it's about being victimized. how many times do I need to say that?

I think this is the problem. You see yourself as a victim, when in reality you are in a position of privilege compared to the people you feel are victimizing you.

Providing services to reduce harm to members of your community is not victimizing you. It is improving their lives and therefore improving safety in the community.
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
It's the most blatant act of hypocrisy to say you care about people, but in the same breadth tell residents to essentially go fuck themselves because of your lofty moral/wider societal goals.

I find this very interesting. You are asking me to care equally about one group of people dying from ODs and HIV/Hep C and another group of people who are seeing something they don't like.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Exactly, just to the people who imagine they are being harmed by SIFs and want to jeopardize the life and health of other people (and their community) by refusing to accept an SIF in their neighbourhood. People who turn a good thing for their community - and for the things they're worried about! - into a bad thing for their community.

THOSE people can go fuck themselves for sure!
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

R4V4G3D_SKU11S

TRIBE Member
Thank you janie and kyfe and praktik. I spent enough time speaking to this on facebook to people with the same stance as waynkenken, luckily people on there actually took time to read actual research on SIS' and changed their tunes.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
^^ thats just it. There isn't really an empirically researched case to oppose SIFs, just as there isn't an empirical basis on which to support the Drug War.

These are cases where more and more research piles on to the side of SIFs and showing the horror of the Drug War, and on the other side all they have is rhetoric, emotion and a class war that is never called by its true name (disguised instead by dog whistles like "derelicts" and "character of the neighbourhood" and "what of the children??")
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
You are being a giant baby.

:)

Ok fine I accept that I'm having a one-sided perspective - this is a great neighbourhood and I'm defensive about things that I perceive (right or wrong) could lower the quality of life here. It's the result of years of dealing with living at ground zero. I support progressive measures such as this clinic and hopefully it will help and turn out to be a net-positive. Anything else will just become and blend into the noise that already in this neighbourhood.
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
Well another incident in the hood. It may not be as notorious as other places but shootings are frighteningly more common than expected. I now live within one block of seven shooting involved incidents since I've moved here.

I'm thinking the citizen involved here was likely not a heroin user as they are more likely to be slumped in a corner near the church, but rather the common Monday-morning ill disheveled person.

http://m.metronews.ca/#/article/new...yonge-dundas-toronto-police-shooting-siu.html
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
Thank you janie and kyfe and praktik. I spent enough time speaking to this on facebook to people with the same stance as waynkenken, luckily people on there actually took time to read actual research on SIS' and changed their tunes.

I am missing Kev terribly this week so have been reading through his posts. It is unbearable to me that this is happening too late for him.

Anyway. The overdose crisis is intensifying in BC and looks like it will get worse here. The Toronto Overdose Early Warning and Alert Partnership, which is made up of service providers, cops, paramedics, users, CAMH and the Coroner's office, had their first meeting this week led by Toronto Public Health, to deal with the current overdose situation and the fact that fentanyl is now here and carfentanil may get here. They should have a report out in March with a strategy: Real-time overdose data an urgent priority in order to prevent Toronto fentanyl crisis, Tory says

In the meantime, if you use opiods please don't use by yourself, and pick up naloxone. This is available for free at pharmacies, over the counter without a prescription, and they will show you how to use it. Not all pharmacies are stocking it but I'm hearing that some downtown Shoppers Drug Marts have it. If you don't use but know people who do, consider picking it up yourself.

Note to cocaine users. Fentanyl-tainted cocaine has surfaced in Ontario so please be careful, don't use alone and go slow.
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
Toronto Board of Health has released their Overdose Action Plan and will vote on it at their meeting next week: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/hl/bgrd/backgroundfile-101781.pdf

Some good stuff in there, expanding access to naloxone including nasal naloxone, using peer support workers, fast-tracking the good samaritan law that will mean people will not face drug charges if emergency responders are called to the scene of an overdose, and not having police respond to OD calls in the first place.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

praktik

TRIBE Member

How does the author know that without the Safe Injection site, the problems he describes in these areas would be not be even worse?

Safe Injection sites aren't going to solve a symptom of the Drug War we are waging, it can only reduce the harm and the toll it takes.

This article is unbalanced, sourcing from sources critical of sites and not seeking balance - repeating their words uncritically as if they have the dispositive take on the success of SIS in Vancouver.

If X thousand people die, but without the site, X + Y people would have died - it could be argued the site is still well worth it. Disease rates are also lower because of the site.

These are human factors the author ignores because apparently, Safe Injection sites were supposed to make heroin addiction go away. Seems like author should read up on this: Perfect solution fallacy
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
How does the author know that without the Safe Injection site, the problems he describes in these areas would be not be even worse?

Safe Injection sites aren't going to solve a symptom of the Drug War we are waging, it can only reduce the harm and the toll it takes.

This article is unbalanced, sourcing from sources critical of sites and not seeking balance - repeating their words uncritically as if they have the dispositive take on the success of SIS in Vancouver.

If X thousand people die, but without the site, X + Y people would have died - it could be argued the site is still well worth it. Disease rates are also lower because of the site.

These are human factors the author ignores because apparently, Safe Injection sites were supposed to make heroin addiction go away. Seems like author should read up on this: Perfect solution fallacy

Still on this utilitarian approach eh.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Still on this utilitarian approach eh.

Its the only approach that matters - lives saved, healthier lives - all more important than `feelings` and stigma.

My friend who works in harm reduction had this reaction too:

I think it's really shitty that while the author acknowledges SIS "prevent people from dying", he frames that as the "only" thing that SIS do. First, that's a really important, humane accomplishment. Second, it's not the only thing that SIS achieve when you consider that some people walk out with new connections to other health and social services, or safer use information they can pass along to peers on the street. Anyone who expects SIS or other harm reduction programs to solve rates of addiction are not understanding what such programs are supposed to do and/or are ignoring that these programs have to coexist with continued prohibition on drugs. We wouldn't have as many problems with fentanyl if the drugs being sought weren't being made who knows where in some cases or there was greater access to pharma-grade opioids. But no, instead drug use remains criminalized and there are other barriers. I don't know enough about the situation in Edmonton to comment right now - the placement of the sites could indeed be misguided in some ways, but I have yet to follow up on that.
 

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
You are being a giant baby. Do you honestly think I blame you for witnessing the dude in front of the restaurant? I was answering a ridiculous question by giving a ridiculous answer.

By the way, the derelicts are also residents of the community.
uh, no they arent. they are derelict of having housing....that does not make them a part of the community, that makes them an unwanted fixture of the community . i understand the slippery slope of addiction but pretending giving them a safe space and the drugs to get high is doing anything but perpetuating it is laughable. they bust pot dealers in their shops but why arent they busting the gov for giving heroin to junkies??? double standard much.
the biggest bleeding hearts are also the largest nimbys going
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

praktik

TRIBE Member
i understand the slippery slope of addiction but pretending giving them a safe space and the drugs to get high is doing anything but perpetuating it is laughable.

To pretend that SIS just "perpetuates" drug use is laughable, and stems from a complete ignorance of the practical benefits they provide in terms of reduction of disease reservoirs and mortality associated with drug use.

Even the article you posted recgonized the reduction in mortality from the SIS site he chose to criticize.

Even he didn't say the "only" thing it does is "perpetuate" drug use.

if people think an SIS "encourages" drug use they probably don't know much about drug use and why people use them.
 

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
To pretend that SIS just "perpetuates" drug use is laughable, and stems from a complete ignorance of the practical benefits they provide in terms of reduction of disease reservoirs and mortality associated with drug use.

Even the article you posted recgonized the reduction in mortality from the SIS site he chose to criticize.

Even he didn't say the "only" thing it does is "perpetuate" drug use.

if people think an SIS "encourages" drug use they probably don't know much about drug use and why people use them.
my cousin does outreach around hastings and says its a complete disaster. he had some scary disgusting videos he would shoot from his office of drugged out junkies being completely fucked out of their mind in doorways/laying on the ground/ milling about. he is an addict himself btw so doesnt mince words on the subject. his fucking tales are stomach churning stuff
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
my cousin does outreach around hastings and says its a complete disaster. he had some scary disgusting videos he would shoot from his office of drugged out junkies being completely fucked out of their mind in doorways/laying on the ground/ milling about. he is an addict himself btw so doesnt mince words on the subject. his fucking tales are stomach churning stuff

Anecdotes, even from the frontline, can't substitue for the methodology of a study.

In terms of heirarchy of evidence, its amongst the lowest quality available- we also don't know what prior assumptions and biases you cousin is bringing to his observations, something a study works to avoid through all kinds of mechanisms of inquiry.

Studies show reduced mortality, reduced disease with SIS - financial benefits to the community as well.

"people" talk shit

I expect "stomach churning stuff" would be happening with or without an SIS - this is the kind of scene it is. The question is - are we reducing death and disease in addict populations? The answer is YES
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
Not to mention that frontline workers in the DTES are some of the biggest advocates for expanding SIS services, prescription heroin, and decriminalization. They're super traumatized and angry after seeing so many unnecessary deaths.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders
Top