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The Road Map

organik

TRIBE Member
Press Statement
Office of the Spokesman
Washington, DC
April 30, 2003


A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict


The following is a performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, under the auspices of the Quartet [the United States, European Union, United Nations, and Russia]. The destination is a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005, as presented in President Bush’s speech of 24 June, and welcomed by the EU, Russia and the UN in the 16 July and 17 September Quartet Ministerial statements.

A two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will only be achieved through an end to violence and terrorism, when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror and willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty, and through Israel’s readiness to do what is necessary for a democratic Palestinian state to be established, and a clear, unambiguous acceptance by both parties of the goal of a negotiated settlement as described below. The Quartet will assist and facilitate implementation of the plan, starting in Phase I, including direct discussions between the parties as required. The plan establishes a realistic timeline for implementation. However, as a performance-based plan, progress will require and depend upon the good faith efforts of the parties, and their compliance with each of the obligations outlined below. Should the parties perform their obligations rapidly, progress within and through the phases may come sooner than indicated in the plan. Non-compliance with obligations will impede progress.

A settlement, negotiated between the parties, will result in the emergence of an independent, democratic, and viable Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel and its other neighbors. The settlement will resolve the Israel-Palestinian conflict, and end the occupation that began in 1967, based on the foundations of the Madrid Conference, the principle of land for peace, UNSCRs 242, 338 and 1397, agreements previously reached by the parties, and the initiative of Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah – endorsed by the Beirut Arab League Summit – calling for acceptance of Israel as a neighbor living in peace and security, in the context of a comprehensive settlement. This initiative is a vital element of international efforts to promote a comprehensive peace on all tracks, including the Syrian-Israeli and Lebanese-Israeli tracks.

The Quartet will meet regularly at senior levels to evaluate the parties' performance on implementation of the plan. In each phase, the parties are expected to perform their obligations in parallel, unless otherwise indicated.

Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003
In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services. Palestinians undertake comprehensive political reform in preparation for statehood, including drafting a Palestinian constitution, and free, fair and open elections upon the basis of those measures. Israel takes all necessary steps to help normalize Palestinian life. Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied from September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed at that time, as security performance and cooperation progress. Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report.

At the outset of Phase I:

Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.
Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.
Security

Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.
Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption.
GOI takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction; destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other measures specified in the Tenet work plan.
Relying on existing mechanisms and on-the-ground resources, Quartet representatives begin informal monitoring and consult with the parties on establishment of a formal monitoring mechanism and its implementation.
Implementation, as previously agreed, of U.S. rebuilding, training and resumed security cooperation plan in collaboration with outside oversight board (U.S.–Egypt–Jordan). Quartet support for efforts to achieve a lasting, comprehensive cease-fire.
All Palestinian security organizations are consolidated into three services reporting to an empowered Interior Minister.
Restructured/retrained Palestinian security forces and IDF counterparts progressively resume security cooperation and other undertakings in implementation of the Tenet work plan, including regular senior-level meetings, with the participation of U.S. security officials.
Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms of support for groups supporting and engaging in violence and terror.
All donors providing budgetary support for the Palestinians channel these funds through the Palestinian Ministry of Finance's Single Treasury Account.
As comprehensive security performance moves forward, IDF withdraws progressively from areas occupied since September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed prior to September 28, 2000. Palestinian security forces redeploy to areas vacated by IDF.
Palestinian Institution-Building

Immediate action on credible process to produce draft constitution for Palestinian statehood. As rapidly as possible, constitutional committee circulates draft Palestinian constitution, based on strong parliamentary democracy and cabinet with empowered prime minister, for public comment/debate. Constitutional committee proposes draft document for submission after elections for approval by appropriate Palestinian institutions.
Appointment of interim prime minister or cabinet with empowered executive authority/decision-making body.
GOI fully facilitates travel of Palestinian officials for PLC and Cabinet sessions, internationally supervised security retraining, electoral and other reform activity, and other supportive measures related to the reform efforts.
Continued appointment of Palestinian ministers empowered to undertake fundamental reform. Completion of further steps to achieve genuine separation of powers, including any necessary Palestinian legal reforms for this purpose.
Establishment of independent Palestinian election commission. PLC reviews and revises election law.
Palestinian performance on judicial, administrative, and economic benchmarks, as established by the International Task Force on Palestinian Reform.
As early as possible, and based upon the above measures and in the context of open debate and transparent candidate selection/electoral campaign based on a free, multi-party process, Palestinians hold free, open, and fair elections.
GOI facilitates Task Force election assistance, registration of voters, movement of candidates and voting officials. Support for NGOs involved in the election process.
GOI reopens Palestinian Chamber of Commerce and other closed Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem based on a commitment that these institutions operate strictly in accordance with prior agreements between the parties.
Humanitarian Response

Israel takes measures to improve the humanitarian situation. Israel and Palestinians implement in full all recommendations of the Bertini report to improve humanitarian conditions, lifting curfews and easing restrictions on movement of persons and goods, and allowing full, safe, and unfettered access of international and humanitarian personnel.
AHLC reviews the humanitarian situation and prospects for economic development in the West Bank and Gaza and launches a major donor assistance effort, including to the reform effort.
GOI and PA continue revenue clearance process and transfer of funds, including arrears, in accordance with agreed, transparent monitoring mechanism.
Civil Society

Continued donor support, including increased funding through PVOs/NGOs, for people to people programs, private sector development and civil society initiatives.
Settlements

GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.
Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).


Phase II: Transition -- June 2003-December 2003
In the second phase, efforts are focused on the option of creating an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and attributes of sovereignty, based on the new constitution, as a way station to a permanent status settlement. As has been noted, this goal can be achieved when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror, willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty. With such a leadership, reformed civil institutions and security structures, the Palestinians will have the active support of the Quartet and the broader international community in establishing an independent, viable, state.

Progress into Phase II will be based upon the consensus judgment of the Quartet of whether conditions are appropriate to proceed, taking into account performance of both parties. Furthering and sustaining efforts to normalize Palestinian lives and build Palestinian institutions, Phase II starts after Palestinian elections and ends with possible creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders in 2003. Its primary goals are continued comprehensive security performance and effective security cooperation, continued normalization of Palestinian life and institution-building, further building on and sustaining of the goals outlined in Phase I, ratification of a democratic Palestinian constitution, formal establishment of office of prime minister, consolidation of political reform, and the creation of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.

International Conference: Convened by the Quartet, in consultation with the parties, immediately after the successful conclusion of Palestinian elections, to support Palestinian economic recovery and launch a process, leading to establishment of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders.
Such a meeting would be inclusive, based on the goal of a comprehensive Middle East peace (including between Israel and Syria, and Israel and Lebanon), and based on the principles described in the preamble to this document.
Arab states restore pre-intifada links to Israel (trade offices, etc.).
Revival of multilateral engagement on issues including regional water resources, environment, economic development, refugees, and arms control issues.
New constitution for democratic, independent Palestinian state is finalized and approved by appropriate Palestinian institutions. Further elections, if required, should follow approval of the new constitution.
Empowered reform cabinet with office of prime minister formally established, consistent with draft constitution.
Continued comprehensive security performance, including effective security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.
Creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders through a process of Israeli-Palestinian engagement, launched by the international conference. As part of this process, implementation of prior agreements, to enhance maximum territorial contiguity, including further action on settlements in conjunction with establishment of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.
Enhanced international role in monitoring transition, with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet.
Quartet members promote international recognition of Palestinian state, including possible UN membership.


Phase III: Permanent Status Agreement and End of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict -- 2004 – 2005
Progress into Phase III, based on consensus judgment of Quartet, and taking into account actions of both parties and Quartet monitoring. Phase III objectives are consolidation of reform and stabilization of Palestinian institutions, sustained, effective Palestinian security performance, and Israeli-Palestinian negotiations aimed at a permanent status agreement in 2005.

Second International Conference: Convened by Quartet, in consultation with the parties, at beginning of 2004 to endorse agreement reached on an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and formally to launch a process with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet, leading to a final, permanent status resolution in 2005, including on borders, Jerusalem, refugees, settlements; and, to support progress toward a comprehensive Middle East settlement between Israel and Lebanon and Israel and Syria, to be achieved as soon as possible.
Continued comprehensive, effective progress on the reform agenda laid out by the Task Force in preparation for final status agreement.
Continued sustained and effective security performance, and sustained, effective security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.
International efforts to facilitate reform and stabilize Palestinian institutions and the Palestinian economy, in preparation for final status agreement.
Parties reach final and comprehensive permanent status agreement that ends the Israel-Palestinian conflict in 2005, through a settlement negotiated between the parties based on UNSCR 242, 338, and 1397, that ends the occupation that began in 1967, and includes an agreed, just, fair, and realistic solution to the refugee issue, and a negotiated resolution on the status of Jerusalem that takes into account the political and religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide, and fulfills the vision of two states, Israel and sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestine, living side-by-side in peace and security.
Arab state acceptance of full normal relations with Israel and security for all the states of the region in the context of a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace.

[End]

Released on April 30, 2003
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm
 

Pure Silk

TRIBE Member
the violence will not end until the Irealies pull out of the occupied territories

and the termination and dismanteling on all housing settlements
in the occupied territories

Only then will this have any chance of getting resolved......

U will never end terrorism until u give these people a reason to live as oppose to a reason to die.

These FUCKING ZIONISTS have to relise that :mad:
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Pure Silk

These FUCKING ZIONISTS have to relise that :mad:
While your point regarding occupied territories may be correct, the attitude quoted above is just as detrimental to the situation...try not to stereotype. ;)
 

BIG VIBES

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
While your point regarding occupied territories may be correct, the attitude quoted above is just as detrimental to the situation...try not to stereotype. ;)
Actually, he used the correct terminology and I'd say he isn't stereotyping at all. Zionism is a movement based on developing the Jewish homeland... so they're precisely the ones who are occupying the Palestinian land. If he were to have replaced the word Zionist with Jew then it would have been stereotyping.

About this agreement, just like every other agreement, its too much, too fast. Americans think that anything can be accomplished in no time... just like converting Iraq into a democracy, hehe. You can't just create a peaceful happy land when there's been countless centuries of conflict between two peoples.

I think if the Americans really want to see something come of this they're gonna have to really stop taking Israel's side and apply some real pressure to get them out of the occupied territories.
 
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~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by BIG VIBES
Actually, he used the correct terminology and I'd say he isn't stereotyping at all. Zionism is a movement based on developing the Jewish homeland... so they're precisely the ones who are occupying the Palestinian land. If he were to have replaced the word Zionist with Jew then it would have been stereotyping.
I know what Zionism is. His use of "Zionism" sounded as though he was branding all those involved in the Palestinian occupation a Zionist. This is not correct. Zionism is a very particular form of belief (I think we've gone over this in previous threads). The point is, it isn't constructive to label a group of people something which they may not necessarily be.

Perhaps an irrelevant point to the thread, however anger should always be carefully contained. ;)

I should add, that Zionism, originally, represented something positive, without the stigma of oppression that we now associate with it.
 

Deep_Groove

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Pure Silk
the violence will not end until the Irealies pull out of the occupied territories

and the termination and dismanteling on all housing settlements
in the occupied territories

Only then will this have any chance of getting resolved......

U will never end terrorism until u give these people a reason to live as oppose to a reason to die.

These FUCKING ZIONISTS have to relise that :mad:
Fucking Zionists! Evil imperialist hegemons! When will their endless greed ever end??? :rolleyes:

What you've said is probably true... BUT - it's a necessary, NOT a sufficient condition. The violence won't end until the Palestinian side stops funding schools and mosques teaching that Jews are the spawn of Satan coming to destroy the world...and glorifying the murder of civilians...and saying the Jews have no historic claim in this land...and that if only we could rise up in greater military strength, we might destroy them all...etc. etc. etc.

This kind of silly (not to mention unrealistic) propaganda doesn't exist on the Israeli side, and since it is endorsed by the majority of the Palestinians, THIS is the major obstacle to peace.

You can't negotiate a final settlement with someone who still harbors a secret desire to destroy you when they get the chance.

- Deep_Groove
 

Deep_Groove

TRIBE Member
No, YOU on crack. :D

Maybe "doesn't exist" is too strong a phrase, because there are always fringe cranks and their propaganda, but those are fringe cranks and their propaganda not mainstream, government-funded bodies.

Israel is a liberal democratic country with a free media...any fringe propaganda you find is a result of people investing and buying fringe publications, and you'll always get this in a free system... we have it here too.

And of course you have the orthodox and religious parties who get government funding for their way of life...but again, they're THE FRINGE.

But lets compare:

Does the Israeli government fund a school system producing textbooks that celebrate murderous jihad and completely invent history?

No, but the Palestinian Authority does that.

Does the Israeli government fund mainstream temples that preach mass killing for the glory of God?

No, but the Palestinian Authority does that

Need I go on (and on and on?)

- Deep_Groove
 

Hal-9000

TRIBE Member
end until the Palestinian side stops funding schools and mosques teaching that Jews are the spawn of Satan coming to destroy the world...
Most of those schools are funded by Saudi money, no? Most of ehat I've read about them points toward saudis, in particular the school of that kind in Pakistan.
 
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~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Deep_Groove
No, YOU on crack. :D

Maybe "doesn't exist" is too strong a phrase, because there are always fringe cranks and their propaganda, but those are fringe cranks and their propaganda not mainstream, government-funded bodies.
Hehe...well, I would have to admit that "fringe cranks" is correct, but, I think that "fringe cranks" applies well to the Israeli government. Sharon is an extremist and a bully and isn't willing to accept anything less than a complete concession on the part of the Palestinians, all the while his military goes about their usual slaughter...this goes both ways Monsieur Groove. ;)


Israel is a liberal democratic country with a free media...any fringe propaganda you find is a result of people investing and buying fringe publications, and you'll always get this in a free system... we have it here too.


The mindset among many Israelis has been said to be even more nationalistically guided than those in the U.S. You could also apply "liberal democratic country with free media" to the U.S., but it sure as fuck isn't the case.

Now, I'd like to pretext the following dissection of your arguments with this: your entire Israel/Palestine comparison is flawed. Why? Israel has a government. Palestine does not. The PLO is certainly not in control of the people, nor is Hamas or any of the other (2 or 3) significant "terrorist" groups. Please, also remember that the Israeli population is largely a "civilized" one--Palestine has been living in the equivalent of a ghetto state for an entire generation. So, as we proceed forward here, please remember that.


But lets compare:

Does the Israeli government fund a school system producing textbooks that celebrate murderous jihad and completely invent history?

No, but the Palestinian Authority does that.


Uhh, in one such study, the following was found:

An independent study of Palestinian textbooks by Professor Nathan Brown of George Washington University in Washington, DC, notes that “virtually every discussion in English on Palestinian education repeats the charge that Palestinian textbooks incite students against Jews and Israel”. Brown states that: “It may therefore come as a surprise to readers that the books authored under the PNA are largely innocent of these charges. What is more remarkable than any statements they make on the subject is their silence — the PNA-authored books often stubbornly avoid treating anything controversial regarding Palestinian national identity, forcing them into awkward omissions and gaps.”

Brown, while not uncritical of the Palestinian textbooks, concluded that “the Palestinian curriculum is not a war curriculum; while highly nationalistic, it does not incite hatred, violence and anti-Semitism. It cannot be described as a peace curriculum either, but the charges against it are often wildly exaggerated or inaccurate.” (“Democracy, History and the Contest over the Palestinian Curriculum,” an independent report prepared for the Adam Institute, 2002 [http://www.nad-plo.org/textbooks/nathan_textbook.pdf]) Nationalism, whatever its drawbacks, underpins almost every country's school curriculum, not least in the United States and Israel.
and furthermore:

And, perhaps Israel would be in a better position to lecture Palestinians about what they should do in their classrooms if Israel had not constantly shelled school buildings and used Palestinian schools as detention camps for thousands of men and boys rounded up during "Operation Defensive Shield", when they were forced to strip, and lie for hours and days on cold, concrete floors, sometimes with numbers written on their arms.
And a report done by a research group in Washington found the opposite to be the closer to the truth:

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.
We also have the fact that Israel is responsible for the majority of the textbooks:

Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel’s population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.



Does the Israeli government fund mainstream temples that preach mass killing for the glory of God?

No, but the Palestinian Authority does that
Well, I would argue that the Israeli school-system is doing enough to incite hatred:

“One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw,” said Banvolegyi. “Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers’ attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs.”
and of the same study done in Washington:

Cohen points out that the authors of these children’s books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel’s hump, 2 times.
Now in direct reference to your temples of hatred, the problem here is that you have a group of people that were kicked out of their own land by their own people, and then refused reentry after the war only to find themselves next to the Israelis as submissive pawns who, since then, have been continually oppressed by the government and the military. This is not to say, of course, that some Israelis got along well with the Palestinians; this was actually observed in a great number of cities while the military and government were trying to "ignore" them. It was only after the build-up to the Intifada that things got messy. Naturally, hatred brewed inside the Palestinians without any way of releasing it, because if they did, they were arrested and/or killed. Disgustingly, the problem has only gotten worse since then and you have radicals on BOTH sides of the fence trying to kill each other. Worst of all, both Sharon and Arafat are extremists who love to hate.
The temples are only a natural progression of the hatred. These temples are not the norm.

Hal-9000 is right: most of the funding does indeed come from Saudi Arabia. This is well-documented and undisputed. We can get into an argument of placing "blame", but I'd rather not. You can't prove blame, per se--what we can do is make inferences.
First and foremost, Saudi Arabia is a huge center for terrorist funding for a few reasons:

1) It has lots of oil. Oil = money.
2) It is an Arabic state with a high percentage of the population under the influence of extremist religion. (The government/royal family isn't necessarily at fault here...)
3) Monetary agreements are often done in the form of a Hawala transaction. Essentially, agreements are verbal and untraceable.

This kind of scenario is a great setup for financing illegal organizations, which the extremists in Saudi Arabia are obviously doing quite eagerly.

Saudi Arabia's cash transfers to Muslim communities in America and Europe also ensure that Islamic fundamentalism takes hold among Arabs living in the West and may lay the infrastructure for terrorist cells operating in the U.S. In some cases, the Saudi government itself proved to be a direct supporter of terrorism. Documents obtained from the PLO's archive and made public by Israel indicate that the Saudi Ministry of the Interior funded the militant Palestinian organization Hamas, and highlighted the funding of families of "martyrs" who conducted suicide attacks against Israeli civilians.
In terms of blame, it all comes down to hatred, right? The Israelis hate the Arabs, the Arabs hate the Israelis. It just so happens that Israel + U.S. are funding the hatred on one side, while the Saudis fund the hatred on the other side. We could always just go ahead and blame oil (quite irrationally) as the root of all evil:

Consider Saudi Arabia. Oil revenues make up around 90-95% of total Saudi export earnings, 70%-80% of state revenues, and around 40% of the country's gross domestic product (GDP). In 2002 alone, Saudi Arabia earned nearly $55 billion in crude oil export revenues. Most wealthy Saudis who sponsor charities and educational foundations that preach religious intolerance and hate toward the Western values have made their money from the petroleum industry or its subsidiaries. Osama bin Laden's wealth comes from the family's construction company that made its fortune from government contracts financed by oil money. It is also oil money that enables Saudi Arabia to invest approximately 40% of its income on weapons procurement.



Need I go on (and on and on?)

- Deep_Groove
By all means, but I'm not sure where you come up with your information.


By the way, this is a perfectly disgusting example of the kind of bullshit that people try to sell to the masses about what "really" happened between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Here's another disgusting example of hatred designed to discourage people from thinking from the "left". Yah, us leftists are all hardcore America-haters and terrorist-lovers.

I love it how people try to break down a complex issue into a good side and a bad side, then classify everyone according to god-knows-what kind of criteria into one of the two types. Stoooopid.

It reminds me, actually, of Donnie Darko explaining to that bitchy teacher the same concept as it applied to Love and Fear. ;)
 

Deep_Groove

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
Sharon is an extremist and a bully and isn't willing to accept anything less than a complete concession on the part of the Palestinians, all the while his military goes about their usual slaughter...this goes both ways Monsieur Groove. ;)
What an extremist that Sharon is! Accepting the U.S. roadmap and all - what is he thinking in his murderous heart?


The mindset among many Israelis has been said to be even more nationalistically guided than those in the U.S. You could also apply "liberal democratic country with free media" to the U.S., but it sure as fuck isn't the case.


The U.S. is nothing like the way you imply it is, so I'm not surprised you say the same BS about Israel. I've addressed the idiotic delusions about American patriotism before; I'm not going to waste my time doing it again.

Now, I'd like to pretext the following dissection of your arguments with this: your entire Israel/Palestine comparison is flawed. Why? Israel has a government. Palestine does not.

Oh no? Then WTF is the Palestinian National Authority, established in 1993 after the Oslo accords to begin self-government in the Palestinian territories??? Maybe if you got your facts right ONCE, I might be willing to concede a point.

The PLO is certainly not in control of the people, nor is Hamas or any of the other (2 or 3) significant "terrorist" groups. Please, also remember that the Israeli population is largely a "civilized" one--Palestine has been living in the equivalent of a ghetto state for an entire generation. So, as we proceed forward here, please remember that.

Again, by PLO I assume you mean the PA (or PNA) which it has morped into since 1993. But isn't that interesting? The PA, which was set up for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of bringing orderly rule of law and self-government to the Palestinians as part of a two-state solution "isn't in control of the people or the significant terrorist groups". Have you ever wondered WHY that is? With all the money they've been given, they could EASILY begin positive reforms of Palestinian society, including dismantling terrorist groups. Maybe they haven't because they don't care to?! Oh, and the Palestinians have been living in the equivalent of a ghetto state ever since 1948, buddy. Do you think that their Egyptian and Jordanian occupiers from '48 to '67 (that no one EVER talks about) were any better than the Israelis? HA!


-Uhh, in one such study, the following was found:

http://www.nad-plo.org/textbooks/nathan_textbook.pdf


Brown is a guy with a strong bias who gets just about evertything wrong.

The CMIP does an admirable job defending themselves from his accusations here:

http://www.edume.org/react/brown.htm


and furthermore:

"And, perhaps Israel would be in a better position to lecture Palestinians about what they should do in their classrooms if Israel had not constantly shelled school buildings and used Palestinian schools as detention camps for thousands of men and boys rounded up during "Operation Defensive Shield", when they were forced to strip, and lie for hours and days on cold, concrete floors, sometimes with numbers written on their arms."


What is the source of this quote? You can't just throw a random quote into an argument with no source and hope for an emotional reaction from me supporting it's truth! (You should know that by now! hehe)

And a report done by a research group in Washington found the opposite to be the closer to the truth:

"Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

and of the same study done in Washington:
Cohen points out that the authors of these children’s books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel’s hump, 2 times


Again - source? What "research group in Washington? Please...


We also have the fact that Israel is responsible for the majority of the textbooks:

"Atamneh explained that textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel’s population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input."


HAHAHAHAHHA! Again you are exposed as having no idea what you're talking about. Did you not know that 20% of Israel's population is Arab/Arabic-speaking? (Yes, Israel itself - not the occupied territories, and yes, I'm talking about those wacky Arabs who for some strange reason decided to peacefully stay after 1948 and become better off in the civilized, liberal, democratic industrial nation being built up around them instead of irrationally strapping on bomb belts). They're citizens of a country that treats them equally! So OF COURSE they use the same textbooks as the Jewish Israelis!!! What do you want, a state where people are given serial numbers on the basis of race/religion and sent to segregated schools with different textbooks?

Remember, this quote is not talking about the textbooks used in the West Bank and Gaza, where Israel DID have the responsibility for providing them from '67-'93 when the occupation was at it's height. And sure, the Palestinian's didn't have "input" into the contents of these books. Why? Well, now that the PA has been providing the books for the past 10 years we see EXACTLY why.

http://www.edume.org/reports/7/2.htm


Well, I would argue that the Israeli school-system is doing enough to incite hatred:

“One kid told me he was angry because of something he read or discussed in school and that he felt like punching the first Arab he saw,” said Banvolegyi. “Instead of teaching tolerance and reconciliation, the books and some teachers’ attitudes are increasing hatred for Arabs.”


Well, you got me, I'm convinced. Obviously there's a huge concerted Israeli government effort to stereotype and de-legitimize the feelings of Palestinians because one kid got angry once and wanted to puch an Arab. :rolleyes:


Hal-9000 is right: most of the funding does indeed come from Saudi Arabia. This is well-documented and undisputed. We can get into an argument of placing "blame", but I'd rather not. You can't prove blame, per se--what we can do is make inferences.
First and foremost, Saudi Arabia is a huge center for terrorist funding for a few reasons:

1) It has lots of oil. Oil = money.
2) It is an Arabic state with a high percentage of the population under the influence of extremist religion. (The government/royal family isn't necessarily at fault here...)
3) Monetary agreements are often done in the form of a Hawala transaction. Essentially, agreements are verbal and untraceable.

This kind of scenario is a great setup for financing illegal organizations, which the extremists in Saudi Arabia are obviously doing quite eagerly.


Man, you don't even want to get me started on Saudi Arabia! Let's just leave it at that, shall we!

In terms of blame, it all comes down to hatred, right? The Israelis hate the Arabs, the Arabs hate the Israelis.

Sure, but why? The Jews moving into Palestine in 1900 certainly didn't hate Arabs. They didn't love them or hate them, they were as neutral as can be. But that is not exactly the case today. Why the change, hmmmmm?


By the way, this is a perfectly disgusting example of the kind of bullshit that people try to sell to the masses about what "really" happened between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

Here's another disgusting example of hatred designed to discourage people from thinking from the "left". Yah, us leftists are all hardcore America-haters and terrorist-lovers.


LOL. I actually think that the first link is a pretty accurate description of events (if you leave aside the Bible quotes and dumb stereotypes of Palestinians as "troublemakers"). AND I read FrontPageMag! You may not be one of the people he describes, but there are certainly many of them among the leftist camp, some who are explicit about it, others who are not, and others who are essentially like that even if they don't themselves realize it. Do you know who funds "International ANSWER", one of the premier leftist/anti-Iraq-war organizers? It's the Marxist-Leninists of the old Soviet Union, in case you're wondering. And we know how much they LOVE America. I could go on...


I love it how people try to break down a complex issue into a good side and a bad side, then classify everyone according to god-knows-what kind of criteria into one of the two types. Stoooopid.


Oh, the irony of this being spoken by a knee-jerk Israel-critic.

- Deep_Groove
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Look Deep_Groove, we're not going to get anywhere with these debates. Why? Because your counterpoints are statements of opinion without any supported reasoning (be it documentation, logic or otherwise).

We certainly don't need to get angry at each other debating this subject, but I find it difficult to argue a point with you when your response, for example, is: "Sharon isn't a bully because he accepted the road map.". I picked out this one in particular because it is the best example of why arguments are difficult to sustain with you. How is that statement in anyway a counter-argument to what I stated? His acceptance of the roadmap is a joke anyway--have you read the roadmap?! It's the most pathetic excuse since the Oslo accord, which was also a joke.

Let's not get sidetracked though. You tell me that the U.S. is nothing like I say it is, and yet nationalism is something that Americans are renowned for. It isn't argued, or debated, or much of a controversy really.

The PNA is NOT a government (we can talk about the PLO and PNA interchangeably if you'd like). The Oslo accord is equivalent to giving prisoners a system of democracy which they can exercise inside their cells, but nowhere else, or they'll be shot. When Sharon was still agricultural minister, he encouraged the growth of the Israeli settlements around the Palestinian towns in order to restrict and cut off the Palestinian growth. This is only one of numerous, deliberate attempts at suffocating and oppressing the Arab people.

Then you go on to suggest that the Palestinians don't care to set up any kind of government. That they'd all rather just become martyrs and kill all the Jews. These kind of absolutes are simply ignorant. Yes, the PLO is a terrorist organization. It really is a gang of terrorists that had as its purpose, to destroy the Jewish people and their interests. Do you think every Palestinian feels that way? Obviously they do not. Many Jews are in a similar state: some would like to kill all the Palestinians, others simply want to live in peace. This much we should be able to agree on.

Then you talk about the Jordanian/Egyptian occupation problem. Yes, they were problem. Much like the Israelis are now.

And then further along you simply respond to my quotes and points by saying: "source?"....*sigh* I suppose I could find you the source, but why don't we just agree that I made it all up ok? ;)

Then you say that I've exposed myself as having no idea as to what I'm talking about. This is unlikely, but I'll entertain the thought. You seem to have come to that conclusion about me because of some quote I brought about texts being written by the Israelis. Yes, somehow I do know that 20% of the population is Arab. :eek:

Well, you got me, I'm convinced. Obviously there's a huge concerted Israeli government effort to stereotype and de- legitimize the feelings of Palestinians because one kid got angry once and wanted to puch an Arab.
I'm pointing out a trend. Please don't respond with "what trend? I don't see a trend!" because that would be too expected of you.

Arabs who for some strange reason decided to peacefully stay after 1948 and become better off in the civilized, liberal, democratic industrial nation being built up around them instead of irrationally strapping on bomb belts).
You immediately invalidate yourself by branding the Israelis as "innocent of all crime" and making the Palestinians look like bomb-wielding maniacs, as you so effectively did with this statement.

Israel used a passive form of control over the Palestinians. Just look at how they're stretching their borders by building the wall around Palestinian villages:

http://gush-shalom.org/thewall/index.html

and before that, just after the 67 war, you must know of the Allon plan. I won't reference it, since I'm assuming you're aware of what they did to control and contain the Palestinians. This is not outright violence, no, it is passive aggressive behaviour that is more insidious and detrimental.

There were a number of other "plans", such as those set forth by Sharon when he was agricultural minister and Knesset, all designed to oppress and control the Arab population on the West bank and Gaza strip.

This strategic settlement continued well after the 1993 Oslo accords:

While settlements were designated a "final status" issue under the Oslo agreements, the Labor government launched a massive settlement expansion that had been planned by Sharon in 1991. Through a policy of attracting settlers by offering large economic incentives, the number of Israeli settlers living in settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip doubled from 1994 to the beginning of the year 2000. Clearly strategic in their location, large settlement blocs protrude into the West Bank, preventing movement between and natural growth of Palestinian population centers.
SOURCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You cannot argue that the Palestinians have not lived a life of oppression from day one.

Man, you don't even want to get me started on Saudi Arabia! Let's just leave it at that, shall we!
Sure.

LOL. I actually think that the first link is a pretty accurate description of events (if you leave aside the Bible quotes and dumb stereotypes of Palestinians as "troublemakers"). AND I read FrontPageMag! You may not be one of the people he describes, but there are certainly many of them among the leftist camp, some who are explicit about it, others who are not, and others who are essentially like that even if they don't themselves realize it.
The thing is, it is the most pathetic article I've ever read. It's entirely unobjective and is essentially a personal attack that stereotypes, which is really weak for a "professional" author. It's pathetic, really.
But that's not really the point of this argument, so let's let it slide...

I love it how people try to break down a complex issue into a good side and a bad side, then classify everyone according to god-knows-what kind of criteria into one of the two types. Stoooopid.

Oh, the irony of this being spoken by a knee-jerk Israel-critic.
Knee-jerk huh? Funny thing is, I used to be "pro-Israel"...for quite some time. I've been on the "other side" of the fence. I was actually very rightwingish and conservative. My father is as well, which is how I was influenced.
What adds to this irony is that my background (while extremely, ridiculously mixed) has its roots in Syria/Lebanon. ;)

I'm in no way a knee-jerk Israeli-critic. Critical of Israel, yes, absolutely. Knee-jerk? Not a chance. I do a fair amount of research on issues that I'm interested in before I have an opinion. Brown's work isn't the ONLY research that said what he said. I try to search through independent research archives for my sources as many of these tend to be less biased, even though that's impossible on such an issue.

Oh, and here's the washington report I mentioned previously:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

And to save you the MASSIVE effort of opening a google window and doing a search on Professor Daniel Bar-Tal (he's JEWISH, OMG!!! :eek: :eek:) here's his website:

http://www.tau.ac.il/education/homepg/bar-tal/

Most people do not support the extremist violence that goes on between both Palestine and Israel. I find it disgusting on the part of the PLO as well as on the part of Sharon's army...

Let's try and be constructive when we argue though, mmmkay? ;)
 

Deep_Groove

TRIBE Member
I never said "the Israelis are innocent of all crime". Don't put words in my mouth.

But you're simply wrong to equate Israeli actions which are predominantly surgical defensive measures with Palestinian actions which are predominantly civilian-directed terrorism.

We both acknowledge that this difference exists, but you've got to be covering your ears and eyes and yelling "bla bla bla bla blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" to be able to give them equal moral status.

Whenever I read anything you post about "the crimes/immoral actions/whatever, of Israel", I think to myself: "Jews moved peacefully to Palestine around the turn of the 20th century hoping to build a new democratic state with a Jewish character in their ancestral homeland. The Arabs and others living there were of course welcome to join in this project and they were people that the Zionists had no negative feelings toward". Source: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/zoparis.html

(Note especially: "Palestine shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home, and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".)

Now Israel has a massive army that occupies land and even kills some people without a trial. What on earth caused these simple idealists to become like this? They certainly didn't want things to turn out like this! The answer is always the same: Absolute hatred, absolute rejection of Jewish claims, and absolute violence on the part of the Arabs - which has only recently begun to abate, but not nearly enough for a two-state solution to become viable.

- Deep_Groove
 

Pure Silk

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Deep_Groove
"Jews moved peacefully to Palestine around the turn of the 20th century hoping to build a new democratic state with a Jewish character
LOL...what a load of BULL...

We all know the state of Isreal was based on a system of Terrorism agaist the British occcupiers at the time...and they also forced surviors of the holocuast coming from Europe to join the Isreali army before they were granted citizenship.

The state of Isreal was crated buy the blood of European JEWS fleeing Europe after the second world war...while the native Jews of Palestine reaped the benefits

They forced them to do their dirty work...

it's a shame :(

so u best step off

MR DEEP the condonor of hypocrisy GROOVE
 
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~atp~

TRIBE Member
Absolute hatred, absolute rejection of Jewish claims, and absolute violence on the part of the Arabs
Deep_Groove, why do you feel that Palestinians hate the Israelis? Do you think that they have all been simply taught to hate the Jews without precedent?

We both acknowledge that this difference exists, but you've got to be covering your ears and eyes and yelling "bla bla bla bla blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" to be able to give them equal moral status.
Now Mr. Groove, what have I said about constructive criticism? ;)
And it isn't fair to compare morality between two cultures...that's dangerously close to racism. If you feel that the Jewish people have been acting (primarily) defensively, then you should answer the first question I asked above.

While Jews had initially good intentions when the first few settlements started appearing, little did they know it was going to disrupts the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs. The problem is, after they got the land (and toiled over it), they weren't ready to compromise AT ALL. And in fact, they went even further by claiming more and more land, forgetting that what they were doing to the Palestinians so many other countries like Russia did to them...

Neither Palestinians nor the Israelis are completely innocent. They've both fed the problem; my comments against Israel come from the fact that so many people are ready to defend the Jewish people--I feel it necessary to expose the other side of the problem.

Anyway, that's enough for me in here, we can all believe what we'd like to believe and close our eyes to the rest.
 

expat

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Pure Silk


The state of Isreal was crated buy the blood of European JEWS fleeing Europe after the second world war...while the native Jews of Palestine reaped the benefits

They forced them to do their dirty work...

it's a shame :(



You sir, are an idiot.
 

expat

TRIBE Member
Pure Silk: until you learn to spell the name of the country at which you are directing your ignorant vitriol, I will not take you seriously.

Israel has done some horrible things during the occupation. I believe that the occupation started in response to multiple Palestinian and Arab terrorist attacks in the 1960s, culminating with a full-scale war in 1967 whereby Israel decided that since it’s neighbours would not recognize its right to exist it would take aggressive action designed to further its security. What they should have done was to economically integrate the Palestinians instead of seeking a military solution. We know that now.
But as we demonize the Israelis lets not forget that Israel must seek policies that accord to Middle-Eastern norms rather than European ones. Considering that Syria (under Assad Sr.) massacred more Muslims in one day (in Hama) than Israel has in the entire occupation, we should realize that we judge Israel according to our Western standards when it must play by Middle–Eastern rules
 

Subsonic Chronic

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Deep_Groove
But you're simply wrong to equate Israeli actions which are predominantly surgical defensive measures with Palestinian actions which are predominantly civilian-directed terrorism.
I agree wholeheartedly. Killing women & babies (or "colateral damage" as the IDF prefer), destroying whole orchards of olive trees (the only livelihoods of many Palestinians), preventing children from going to school and preventing adults from going to work through military checkpoints are definitely defensive measures. Just like shooting someone if they're walking about on the street. You never know who could have a bomb stratpped to their belt so it's better to kill them all just to be safe.

I don't understand what those whiny Palestinians get so upset about. Sheesh... You'd think they were being OPPRESSED or something!

Pete
 
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expat

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Subsonic Chronic
I agree wholeheartedly. Killing women & babies (or "colateral damage" as the IDF prefer), destroying whole orchards of olive trees (the only livelihoods of many Palestinians), preventing children from going to school and preventing adults from going to work through military checkpoints are definitely defensive measures. Just like shooting someone if they're walking about on the street. You never know who could have a bomb stratpped to their belt so it's better to kill them all just to be safe.

I don't understand what those whiny Palestinians get so upset about. Sheesh... You'd think they were being OPPRESSED or something!

Pete

Collateral damage: When you allow known wanted militants to hide out in your neighbourhood among innocent civilians, then the international law concept of “perfidy” allows insurgent actions with the corresponding results.

Destroying whole orchards of olive trees: these orchards are used by gunmen to launch katusha rockets in Israeli towns. Blame the militants…Look here: http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20030521/UMIDEN//?query=palestinian

Preventing adults from going to work through military checkpoints: Like it or not, this works in preventing attacks in the short-term.


I am just being devil’s advocate here in trying to illustrate how these measures can very easily be seen as defensive. I believe that they do indeed work in the short-term in preventing attacks but as a long-term solution they are ridiculous.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
...and we're rolling around 35 years now, aren't we?

Not to mention the takeover of basic resources, most crucially water.

By the time the early 90's came, the Palestinians were confined to about 200 scattered areas, each isolated and controlled by conveniently-located checkpoints and Israeli-occupied territories.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Why would anyone ever believe the palistinians. They've never kept there word in past. While there legal governing body says stop the attacks, the attacks continue on. They have never cracked down on the very people they promised to crack down on several times over several years. They have lied so many times its impossible to count them.


Sorry to be so blunt on this but I can't stand them as a society. They are anarchistic and have done nothing to better there lot no matter what was given to them.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Ditto Much
Why would anyone ever believe the palistinians. They've never kept there word in past. While there legal governing body says stop the attacks, the attacks continue on. They have never cracked down on the very people they promised to crack down on several times over several years. They have lied so many times its impossible to count them.


Sorry to be so blunt on this but I can't stand them as a society. They are anarchistic and have done nothing to better there lot no matter what was given to them.
I can't believe you're saying that. No, I don't believe it. If you mean what you said, please, take your anecdotal bullshit and spew it somewhere else because no one is going to listen.

Disgusting.
 

expat

TRIBE Member
The Palestinians "never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" for peace-making.

--Abba Eban
 
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