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The Palestine / Israel nightmare rages on, even on facebook

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ndrwrld

TRIBE Member
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fucking USA.
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
in 2006 Palestinians voted Hamas in to power. Hamas refuses to recognize Israels right to exist. in 2009 Israel voted in Netanyahu, a hard liner who will not recognize a 2 state solution.

Well no, it's not "bloody complicated". You're making a defacto assumption that Israel does have a right to exist. Why should it? Because the bible and torah say so? Because the UN carved out some land and said "ok just go here, locals be damned"?

And so given that $3B is only about 1% of their GDP (which is different than budget, but whatever for now...) then let them fight their own war with their own money.

At this point the only way those two are going to be satisfied is if they fight it out and one comes out a winner. Sad but that's the way humans seem to settle things in the end, it's been the same everywhere else so why would it be different now.

-jM
A&D
 

danielablau

TRIBE Promoter
You crazy fuck....you write a lot of weird fucked up shit but this is some logical coherent writing.

that said, who was there prior to the Palestinians and how long were the Palestinians there for?
 
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Spinsah

TRIBE Member
That's a very human response and I think that sentiment taps into a lot of anger and fear that is part of the daily life of those living in Israel. However, because it is so deeply emotionally and culturally invested, it's blinded to some of more nuanced and pragmatic critiques that are justifiably levied at Israel.

Israel is a rational actor and a democratic, first-world country that must be held to a higher standard. I reject the notion that any critique of Israel equates to antisemitism - that's a false dichotomy. I also reject that the disproportionate civilian deaths on the Palestinian side falls entirely on Hamas for putting civilians in harms way. That many civilians killed in hospitals, schools and playing on beaches is simply unacceptable.

Many of us who don't have deep personal or cultural ties to the region do believe that Israel has a right to defend itself, but also believe that right is not without limits and qualification, and that the actions of Netanyahu's governement and the IDF are not beyond reproach.
 

Spinsah

TRIBE Member
The really depressing thing is, the anger represented in that letter was stoked by Netanyahu's government as it is politically advantageous to them to gather broad support, go in and, as they say "mow the lawn" in Gaza. Of course, this buoys Hamas as well as it activates their support networks and they too gain political support. It's a bloody quagmire and despite the slanted death toll, it remains a zero sum game.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
This was some thoughtful commentary and good links from Sullivan on the human shield angle:

For Israel, There’s No Such Thing As An Innocent Gazan « The Dish

"When you are killing scores of children, it is not enough to argue self-defense (even though the Iron Dome has given Israel about as robust a defense against home-made rockets as you can get). You have to argue for something grander to nullify the corpses of children. And the dehumanization of those living in Gaza – to the point at which spectators with popcorn cheer their deaths – has led to Israeli indifference to the deaths of human beings that, if they were Jews, would be regarded as the harbinger of calamity. Can you imagine the response in Israel if over 200 Israeli children were killed by a rocket attack by Hamas? Can you imagine anyone saying that the Israelis did this to themselves? That tells you everything about how deep the moral rot has gone, how this kind of zero-sum war and brutalizing occupation over decades cannot but destroy a country’s soul."
 
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DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
Well no, it's not "bloody complicated". You're making a defacto assumption that Israel does have a right to exist. Why should it? Because the bible and torah say so? Because the UN carved out some land and said "ok just go here, locals be damned"?

1st point - yes it's bloody complicated. anyone who think otherwise is either naive or ignorant, or possibly both.

2nd point -

a) I support Israel's right to exist because it currently exists today and has existed my entire life. I live in the world of reality, and not one of fiction where we can go back and revise history.

b) I also support a Palestinian state. I support a 2 state solution. Israel has no more (or less) a right to exist than a Palestinian state.

3rd point - the UN carved out a 2 state solution with Israel and Palestine each having land and Jerusalem being an international city. It was actually a reasonable solution, and virtually every peace proposal since is based on the same idea. The Jewish leadership accepted the proposal and the Arab leadership didn't. Unfortunately I doubt Israel will ever relinquish Jerusalem now that they control it, and that will further damage any chance of a final peace.

And so given that $3B is only about 1% of their GDP (which is different than budget, but whatever for now...) then let them fight their own war with their own money.

yes, no shit. I said GDP, and linked a graph specifically saying GDP. 1% of GDP is undoubtably a lot of expenditure, but the point is the country could easily cope if they had to make it up.

But the US aid does not come with no strings attached. They do it to exert a certain (limited) amount of influence in Israel's conduct, as well there is also memorandum of understanding between the US and Israel that Israel will not use nuclear weapons. No more aid and al that goes out the window.

At this point the only way those two are going to be satisfied is if they fight it out and one comes out a winner. Sad but that's the way humans seem to settle things in the end, it's been the same everywhere else so why would it be different now.

isn't that kind of what's happening now? is that your "simple" solution?
 

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
that said, who was there prior to the Palestinians and how long were the Palestinians there for?

there was never a recognized country of Palestine. Before this current conflict it was a British territory, who had it since the end of WW1. Prior to that is was part of the Ottoman empire for centuries.

Prior to the existence of modern Israel even the term 'Palestinian' would have referred to both jews and arabs. The jews were not the majority and made up less than half of the population, but there were still hundreds of thousands of them, so they do have some sort of claim to the land. After WW2 more jews emigrated to the area, and once they created their own state more kept coming.
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
^^ might be the same one that - allegedly - had temporarily stored some arms.

Though you think something is wrong with IDF filter when no one intervenes to say: let that one slide, significant PR risk.

I think its pretty clear evidence of the reckless scope they have for basis of targeting.
 

ndrwrld

TRIBE Member
Those fuckers bombed that school knowing fully well the UN was in the process of evacuating that school. They blamed it on Hamas' missiles that ' fell short '.
Sorry...Fuck Israel.
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
I kind of think the attack is purposeful - if your aim is to demonstrate to Palestinians that nowhere is safe and to the rest of the world that the letters U and N don't mean shit.

There's a certain gangsterism/"I don't give a fuck" angle that is plausible motivation for the strike.
 

mute79

TRIBE Member
The crazy thing is that 170k people, mostly civilians, have died in neighbouring Syria since 2011. To put this figure in perspective, it outweighs combined deaths of all Israeli/Arab wars since 1963, and this includes all sides involved in conflicts (Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, etc).

Just yesterday 700 people died in a single day in Syria. Why is there no uproar about this?
 

danielablau

TRIBE Promoter
The crazy thing is that 170k people, mostly civilians, have died in neighbouring Syria since 2011. To put this figure in perspective, it outweighs combined deaths of all Israeli/Arab wars since 1963, and this includes all sides involved in conflicts (Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, etc).

Just yesterday 700 people died in a single day in Syria. Why is there no uproar about this?

There def needs to be an uproar. It's such a mess in the middle east.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
More on the school - and more evidence for the deliberate gangsterism of the attack:

Israeli strike on Gaza school kills 15 and leaves 200 wounded | World news | The Guardian

The Israeli military first claimed, in a text sent to journalists, that the school could have been hit by Hamas missiles that fell short. Later, a series of tweets from the Israel Defence Forces appeared to confirm the deaths were the result of an Israeli strike. “Today Hamas continued firing from Beit Hanoun. The IDF responded by targeting the source of the fire. Last night, we told Red Cross to evacuate civilians from UNRWA’s shelter in Beit Hanoun btw 10am & 2pm. UNRWA & Red Cross got the message. Hamas prevented civilians from evacuating the area during the window that we gave them.”
...
“We spent much of the day trying to negotiate or to coordinate a window so that civilians, including our staff, could leave. That was never granted … and the consequences of that appear to be tragic.” Gunness said the Israeli military were supplied with coordinates of UN schools where those displaced were sheltering. UN sources told the Guardian a call was placed to the Israeli military at 10.55am requesting permission to evacuate but their call was not returned.
 

Spinsah

TRIBE Member
The crazy thing is that 170k people, mostly civilians, have died in neighbouring Syria since 2011. To put this figure in perspective, it outweighs combined deaths of all Israeli/Arab wars since 1963, and this includes all sides involved in conflicts (Israel, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, etc).

Just yesterday 700 people died in a single day in Syria. Why is there no uproar about this?
This is a common deflection and it's disingenuous for two reasons. One, of course there's been an uproar. There's still uproar over Boko Haram and how more and more of those abducted schoolgirls have been sold into slavery. Two, Israel does not get to play the relativist game with radical fundamentalist regimes unless it too wants to slide into that category. Israel must be held to a higher standard, it is after all a democratic first-world country; and, as it reminds the west all the time, it should be given special consideration on those merits. Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition have stoked fear within Israel and abroad to justify this offensive for political gain, and Hamas, also standing to gain, is more than willing to play along.

Many of our friends and neighbours here in Canada, online on Facebook and here on Tribe are Jewish and have strong ties to Israel; of course this conflict is going to spur more discourse and discussion. I don't know many people with family and friends suffering under Boko Haram, do you?

It really saddens and frustrates me to see so many rhetorical games played, logical fallacies deployed and false dichotomies put forward by the unbridled supporters of Israel's current offensive. It reeks of desperation and suggests a rotting moral foundation.
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
Sullivan on the apologist misdirection to other conflicts:

Goldblog wonders why the press is paying so much attention to Gaza and so little to Syria, when the implications of the latter conflict are, in his view, much broader (and the death toll much higher):

[T]he Arab Spring (or Awakening, or whatever word you choose) has given lie to the idea—shorthanded as “linkage”—that the key to American success in the broader Middle East is dependent on finding a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This idea, that all roads run through Jerusalem, has traditionally motivated a great deal of journalistic and foreign policy expert interest in this conflict. Finding a solution to this conflict is very important to the future of Israelis and Palestinians, of course, but not nearly so much to Americans. A peaceful resolution to this conflict would do little to bring about good governance in Arab states, or an end to Islamist extremism in the greater Middle East. Which brings me back to Syria. The war in Syria (and Iraq, since it is more or less a single war now) is of greater national security importance to the United States than the war in Gaza, and it should be covered in a way that reflects this reality.​
It’s a familiar, ancient device for Israel apologists: there are worse massacres elsewhere; solving Israel-Palestine won’t help us much in foreign policy anyway; so let’s move right along, shall we? And don’t mention the settlements, except in asides that are designed to credentialize the writer as someone who naturally opposes them – even as he also opposes any serious pressure on Israel to stop the provocations. He attributes the discrepancy to the Western world’s weird obsession with criticizing Israel, which is subtler version of the accusation of anti-Semitism.

One reason, of course, which Goldblog mentions, is that the US is partly paying for the slaughter in Gaza and for the clean-up afterwards. More to the point, condemnation of Assad is universal in the US (while Netanyahu is lionized and egged on by one political party), and the conflict there is an evenly matched civil war, rather than one more relentless pounding of a weak mini-state under Israeli control with casualties massively lop-sided in one direction. This is not to say that what is going on in Syria isn’t unbelievably awful and worse in many ways than what’s occurring in Gaza. We noted the massacre here that Goldblog says the NYT ignored. It is simply to say that we would be far more involved if we were supplying the weapons that were killing Syrians en masse.

Keating, on the other hand, agrees that the world is paying attention to the wrong events, but thinks the reason has more to do with how we react to short-term vs. long-term conflicts:

One big problem with the now prevalent “arc of global instability” narrative is that it lumps together short-lived flare-ups of long-running local conflicts with much larger and more transformative events. Sooner or later, the violence in Gaza will be resolved by a cease-fire, though the question is how many more people will die before it happens. The violence in eastern Ukraine flares up and dies down, but despite the understandable wariness in Eastern Europe, it seems unlikely to spread beyond its immediate region.

The twin civil wars in Iraq and Syria are another story: a long-running and increasingly chaotic situation without an obvious political solution, even a short term one. The violence challenges long-standing borders in the region and could increase the risk of international terrorism, and the refugee crisis it has created will continue to place strain on surrounding countries. Given the Iraq war and the deepening U.S. involvement in Syria, I would also argue that it’s the crisis the U.S. bears the most direct responsibility for. This week’s most discussed tragedies will eventually come to an end. But the chaos in Iraq and Syria isn’t going anywhere.​
 

mute79

TRIBE Member
This is a common deflection and it's disingenuous for two reasons. One, of course there's been an uproar. There's still uproar over Boko Haram and how more and more of those abducted schoolgirls have been sold into slavery. Two, Israel does not get to play the relativist game with radical fundamentalist regimes unless it too wants to slide into that category. Israel must be held to a higher standard, it is after all a democratic first-world country; and, as it reminds the west all the time, it should be given special consideration on those merits. Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition have stoked fear within Israel and abroad to justify this offensive for political gain, and Hamas, also standing to gain, is more than willing to play along.

The concerning thing about your response is that you haven't addressed the Syrian conflict and have somehow implicated Israel in it. There is in fact no uproar about the conflict in Syria as the fundamentalists that are on the rampage are supported by the West and Saudis so as to gain access direct access to the Mediterranean coast. The goal is to establish a pipeline to send Arabic nat-gas to Europe and cut off the supply from Russia. So for this reason 170k people have died and the media is silent.

As for your point about Israel, you fail to recognize that it is a country that has about 20% of its population that is Arabic. Arabs have representation in the Knesset and even one of the supreme court judges is Arabic. What is disingenuous is to imply that Israeli population (notice how I didn't indicate Jews here but all Israelis) must accept the suffering at the hands of terrorists because they are a democracy. An absolutely ridiculous notion, equivalent to implying that the US should have ignored 9/11 because the perpetrators were terrorists and do not hail from a democracy. Ridiculous.
 

Big Cheese

TRIBE Member
This is a common deflection and it's disingenuous for two reasons. One, of course there's been an uproar. There's still uproar over Boko Haram and how more and more of those abducted schoolgirls have been sold into slavery. Two, Israel does not get to play the relativist game with radical fundamentalist regimes unless it too wants to slide into that category. Israel must be held to a higher standard, it is after all a democratic first-world country; and, as it reminds the west all the time, it should be given special consideration on those merits. Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition have stoked fear within Israel and abroad to justify this offensive for political gain, and Hamas, also standing to gain, is more than willing to play along.

Many of our friends and neighbours here in Canada, online on Facebook and here on Tribe are Jewish and have strong ties to Israel; of course this conflict is going to spur more discourse and discussion. I don't know many people with family and friends suffering under Boko Haram, do you?

It really saddens and frustrates me to see so many rhetorical games played, logical fallacies deployed and false dichotomies put forward by the unbridled supporters of Israel's current offensive. It reeks of desperation and suggests a rotting moral foundation.

great post.

respect
 
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