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The catholic church....

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
From a logical standpoint, the Catholic Church is your best bet if you are going to call yourself a "Christian". I recognize PosTMOd's points about the absurdity of religion (and agree with them, mostly), but given that someone willfully chooses to forgoe rationality and adopts Christianity, it makes no sense to me whatsoever to do so outside of Catholicism.

Anyways, I doubt many of you outside of Sporty Dan and AdRiAn have read the Catechism (holding mine as we speak), but it provides a coherent and closed model of the world, even if irrational by todays standards. (The catechism is the specification of the Catholic Faith; the bible is not the basis for catholicism as it is highly contradictory and, after all, is just a simple book assembled by catholics in ~300AD) Catholicism is coherent in the sense that any one of its tenets do not contradict any of its others; this property is notably lacking in most other flavours of "christianity", which, because they are based on the bible, are chock full of hypocracy and theologic inconsistancy. Catholicism has had hundreds of generations of (otherwise) very intelligent people working hard to cohere the faith and have done an impressive job, actually. The Catechism is the result of these works. I point out that Catholicism is, IMO, nonetheless irrational because it's fundamental principles are faith and God which.. well.. doesn't hold much salt with me anymore.

re: PosTMOd's Jesus comments
Jesus definitely did exist. The dead sea scrolls make reference to him, obviously biblical texts make reference to him (for whatever that's worth), Islamic texts make reference, but most importantly there are Roman documents related to the man Jesus that the Jews were causing a stink about and that the Romans crucified. The Romans were pretty reliable paperworkers. Obviously I believe most of the subsequent stories about him were highly embellished, but the fact remains that there was definitely a man named Jesus who went around theosophising and was eventually crucified by the Romans.

re: Free Will
I agree with Adrian (and Aquinas, amongst others...) on this issue. Religion is based on the assumption of free will and placing responsibility for actions on man. I personally, however, see the brain as a deterministic, dynamical system and thus don't believe free will is an actual phenomenon. The repercussions of this are of course that morality (and all things) are irrelevent, and the idea of being 'responsible' for my actions to a God (even if one exists) is nonsense. In this way, it is much easier (and more fun) to be PosTMOd's flavour of atheist. However it is much less comforting (initially), to which I believe PosTMOd was referring when he said it is 'harder' to have this mindset.

I do not believe in a soul, as a result of knowing that the brain/mind/me is a deterministic dynamic system.

PosTMOd, falling back onto science is no more rational than falling on religion, really. Science is merely a contemporary religion; it differs from classical religions only in that it is not based on 'faith', but rather testability. THe idea that science is actually objective is obsolete. Our best interpretation of reality is entirely a function of (and limited by) the construction of our cognition and its mechanisms, thus the search for any truly objective worldmodel is irrational and meaningless.

Religion is irrational therefore because it is the result of humans trying to make sense of something. Anytime a human tries to make sense, they are (ironically) engaging in totally irrational behaviour. The best we can do is sit back, realize we are irrational, useless, and insignificant, and maximize the faculties that are built into us; ie. the ability to enjoy pleasure. I mean, may as well, right?

So, MY new irrational worldview is that nothing really matters and I should maximize the amount of time I spend enjoying myself and try to remember those times. YAY.
To this end, I think Epicurus and I would have made great bed buddies.

-jM
A&D
 

Bean

TRIBE Member
Taken from 22MAR02's Globe and Mail.

http://www.globeandmail.com/science , then click on the link for the article....

Peace,

Sabina

.:. Share what you know, learn what you don't .:.
-----

Do priests who abuse minors share personality traits?

By MICHAEL VALPY
RELIGION AND ETHICS REPORTER

Friday, March 22, 2002 – Page A14

The technical name for most priests who are sex offenders is ephebophiles -- men attracted to postpubescent minors -- whose target population is males between 15 and 17 years of age.

The vast majority are known in the jargon of sex-abuse therapists as "groomers."

Through enticement, persuasion and entrapment, they reduce their victims' resistance to sexual abuse rather than use physical force.

They may well have what psychologists call an "adult heterosexual adjustment" but they seek sex with adolescent males for a number of reasons, including social immaturity, identification with the adolescent and lack of opportunity to be intimate with women.

They display traits consistent with narcissism or dependent personality disorders.

Narcissists have fantasies of grandeur and see others as mere extensions of themselves to be exploited at will. People with dependent personality disorders have a pathological fear of separation and show submissive, clinging behaviour.

This profile of the priest sex-abuser comes from Rev. Curtis Bryant, a Jesuit psychologist practising in Los Angeles and the former director of in-patient services at the Saint Luke Institute, a treatment centre for priests in Washington, D.C.

The Saint Luke Institute has kept psychosocial histories of priest sex offenders for more than a dozen years, Father Bryant writes in the April issue of America, the U.S. Jesuit magazine.

Their histories show that more than 50 per cent were themselves abused as children -- much higher than the estimates for the male sex-abuser population at large, which is about 30 per cent.

"Researchers believe that pedophiles make up about 3 per cent to 6 per cent of the population," Father Bryant said.

"While no one knows for sure the exact percentage of priest pedophiles, no serious researcher has established that there are more pedophile offenders in the ranks of the priesthood than elsewhere.

"The [Roman Catholic] Archdiocese of Philadelphia places its percentage of priest pedophiles at 1.8 per cent."

Father Bryant says the most striking characteristic of priest sex offenders is their apparent normality.

However, their tendency to be narcissistic or to show dependent personality behaviour means they lack the capacity to show empathy for their victims and lack the normal social skills of their age group.

Father Bryant says early treatment programs largely emphasized castration, lobotomies (neurosurgery) and antilibidinal mediation. In the 1970s, treatment shifted to behavioural modification techniques such as aversion therapy.

Since the floodgates opened on church sex-abuse complaints in the early 1980s, treatment has focused on getting priests to acknowledge and accept responsibility for their sexual problems, getting them to understand what triggers their actions, teaching them techniques to avoid getting into trouble and getting them to understand that they can't be cured but they can be treated.

Father Bryant says a major treatment problem is getting the offender to let go of his priest persona and accept being a patient.

"Priests, like doctors, resist [this] because they are used to being in control and are uncomfortable in any dependent position.

"A feeling of 'uniqueness,' supported by their profession, encourages grandiosity, making the recovery process a 'put-down.' "

He says that, of 450 priests treated at St. Luke between 1985 and 1995, only three relapses were reported, none of which involved physical contact.
 

AdRiaN

TRIBE Member
Jeffsus!

Duüde! It has definitely been too long since we've gone out drinking together. :)

And by the way, I would have probably added a blurb on Apostolic Succession as another reason why the Holy Mother Church of Rome is the only true Christian church. Good job nonetheless.
 

PosTMOd

Well-Known TRIBEr
Jeffsus: I used to be a catholic... confirmed, and had my first communion and shit... had to appease the stepmonster.

Also, look into anything that references Jesus... it is a forgery. All the epistles are, and the one reference to Jesus from the 200 or so historians around at the time has been proven again and again to be a forgery...

But, I won't continue that argument anymore; I've done it plenty of times on here, and it's not important, just really fucking hilarious that christianity is steeped in pretty well the same amount of truth as hercules and the three bears.

The repurcussions in my world are real, and don't assume that you can have insight into others merely because you take a determinist approach (which I take to look at other people, because they are mostly determined to be sheep); myself, I don't consider much in my life to be determined, except to the extent that there are parameters outside of which it is hard to move, but which are much richer than what you can determine from my ad lib typings on a message board.
 

Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member
"if this gets out, it'll be a scandal"



U.S. Cardinal Sean Patrick O'Malley talks to Pope Francis at the Vatican in 2015. (Andreas Solaro/AFP/Getty Images)
"Activists and some church leadershoped the Vatican would take a tougher stance [on sexual abuse] under Pope Francis," The Wall Street Journal's Francis X. Rocca reports from Vatican City(subscription):

  • "Instead, the opposite has happened, deepening the gap between the Vatican and U.S. church leaders, who have pushed for a more stringent response."
"No clearer is the rift than in the relationship between Pope Francis and ... Cardinal Sean O’Malley of Boston, ... the Vatican’s point man on sex abuse."

  • "An appeals panel set up by the pope had reduced the punishments of a number of Catholic priests found guilty of abusing minors."
  • "If this gets out, it will cause a scandal," Cardinal O’Malley told Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, in effect the pope’s prime minister."
  • "The Boston cardinal’s influence has declined to the point where ... the pope excluded him from the organizing committee [of an 'abuse summit' for bishops next week], which had been Cardinal O’Malley’s idea."
⚡Breaking ... Pope Francis has defrocked former U.S. Cardinal Theodore McCarrick after Vatican officials found him guilty of soliciting sex while hearing Confession, and sex crimes against minors and adults
 

Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member
The Catholic closet
"[G]ay men likely make up at least 30 to 40 percent of the American Catholic clergy, according to dozens of estimates from gay priests themselves and researchers," the N.Y. Times Elizabeth Dias writes:

  • "Some priests say the number is closer to 75 percent."
  • "Fewer than about 10 priests in the United States have dared to come out publicly."
  • Don't forget: The Catholic Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful.
What's next: Beginning Thursday at the Vatican, "Pope Francis will host a much-anticipated summit on sex abuse with bishops from around the world."

  • "The debate promises to be not only about holding bishops accountable but also about homosexuality itself."
  • "Studies repeatedly find there to be no connection between being gay and abusing children."
 

Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member
Stunning scale of global Catholic crisis

Pope Francis greets a Vatican Swiss guard as he arrives Thursday to open the sex abuse prevention summit at the Vatican. (Vincenzo Pinto/Pool Photo via AP)
As the Vatican continuesits four-day bishops' summit on dealing with sex abuse by priests, this stunning roundup by AP Vatican correspondent Nicole Winfield shows starkly that this is "a global problem that requires a global response":

  • Argentina: Pope Francis' home country is beginning to see an eruption of the scandal, with some cases even implicating failures by the pontiff himself.
  • Australia: A four-year national investigation found 4,444 people were abused at more than 1,000 Catholic institutions between 1980 and 2015. 7% of Catholic priests in Australia in 1950-2010 were accused of sexually abusing children.
  • Chile: Chilean criminal prosecutors have staged a series of raids on the church's secret archives to seize documents. They have opened more than 100 investigations into abusive priests.
  • Germany: The German Catholic Church concluded at least 3,677 people were abused by clergy between 1946 and 2014. More than half the victims were 13 or younger and most were boys. Every sixth case involved rape and at least 1,670 clergy were involved. 969 abuse victims were altar boys.
  • Ireland: Tens of thousands of children suffered wide-ranging abuses in church-run workhouse-style institutions.
  • U.S.: About 70 dioceses and religious orders have released lists of accused priests, according to BishopAccountability.org. Pennsylvania alone found 300 priests sexually abused at least 1,000 children since the 1940s. Prosecutors in more than a dozen states have opened similar investigations.
 

Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member
These guys should have their tax exemptions removed and be disbanded...


Bulletin: A top cardinal admitted today at the abuse summit in Vatican City "that the global Catholic Church destroyed files to prevent documentation of decades of sexual abuse of children," per National Catholic Reporter.
 
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