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The Basic Universal Income

deep

TRIBE Member
Read an interesting interview the other day on this subject - Why we need to plan for a future without jobs

A couple things stood out

We’ve already seen Uber-deployed driverless cars in Pittsburgh, and driverless trucks will be deployed in the next five to six years — we’ve already seen them across Europe. The largest job in 29 states is driving a truck. There are 3 and a half million people who operate trucks and 5 million more who support them in various ways.

So there’s a tsunami of change on its way, and the question is twofold. One is how does America go through a transition to what will be I think an economy with far fewer jobs — particularly middle-class jobs? What policies will guide us through this transition? And second, what do we want this to look like on the other end?

I believe a UBI is a way to ease the transition, and it's also a way to provide a floor for people — not necessarily a substitute for work, but a supplement to work that allows them to have a sense of economic security, have consumer buying power. We want to allow people to be entrepreneurs, to take risks and raise kids and do other things without turning the world into the Hunger Games.

Sean Illing
Obviously you’re an advocate for a UBI, but I’d like to hear what you think is the most compelling counterargument against UBI.

Andy Stern
Certainly our concept of work is problematic. This is a country in which people have not figured out what to do if they don't work for money. I think there are many other ways that people potentially can work but, psychologically, the Protestant work ethic is embedded in the psyche of our country. The idea that someone would get something for nothing is anathema here. People that work feel like those who don’t shouldn’t be rewarded. It’s just an alien concept.

Sean Illing
If we don’t implement something like a UBI, what does work and the middle class look like in 30 years?

Andy Stern
It looks like the Hunger Games. It’s more of what we’re beginning to see now: an enclave of extremely successful people at the center and then everyone else on the margins. There will be fewer opportunities in a hollowed out and increasingly zero-sum economy.

If capital trumps labor, the people who own will keep getting wealthier and the people who supply labor will become less necessary. And this is exactly what AI and robotics and software are now doing: substituting capital for labor.

Another interesting read on the subject

A World Without Work

I'm in the leadership side of tech business - even within the industry, there's a continuous dividing line that moves, creating groups that benefit economically from change and those displaced/made irrelevant by it. It's the crux of innovation. The drive is continually to automate and supplant things people used to do, either make or save someone money keeps moving the sticks. So even if within the tech industry you see entire segments of it disrupted, once titans run out of business, people / organizations that are technically adapted to cope to begin with, I think the story is even worse for many more people outside of the industry. Those in no great position to pivot to something else. That pace of software eating the world I think eclipses a lot of people's ability to adapt to it - the question is then do they no longer deserve existence? A measure of a society's progress shouldn't just be margins or productivity, there has to be something to balance against that kind of self interested drive. Maybe another AI to balance human self centeredness / stupidity out :)
 
Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

praktik

TRIBE Member
Yeah, all these articles seem to detail the same major plot-points.

That being said, in terms of the creepy *moralizing* aspect of opinions like BBJs... Well, of course if I were to get a BIG (Basic Income Guarantee) cheque, of course I'd be spending part of it on *vice-things* like beer and tobacco, cuz I'm a smoker and I likes me fine quality Quebec microbrews. Seriously though, who are these fucking Puritans that keep using that creepy moralizing line of argument.
I mean, seriously though, the government should be happy if people use this money for cigs and booze, cuz they tax the hell out of those things. They're getting their money back!

I don't think they even do math. A welfare benefit or basic annual income is money that just disappears in the void.

they don't even know how to connect economic effects or factor in how this cycles through the economy keeping businesses flush with customers all over the place because when poor people get cheques, unlike rich people, they spend them

As I said "ideological autopilot" - there's no story that can't be shoehorned into some partisan war whose shape was defined back in 1984.

meanwhile adults - conservative and liberal alike - know how to do math and consider something on its merits, and were it not for the bleatings of anchronisms like bbj, stuck rooted in the ideological battles of the recent past, we might have something here that people across the spectrum could agree on!
 

Polymorph

TRIBE Member
You know what. If there's one way in which I agree with BBJ, it's that we should totally kill off the CBC,
I mean, if our actual Heritage/Culture Minister there, Mme. Melany Joly, says the CBC should be more like Vice?
Well, Hello. There's already VICE. What. You want to copycat it?
I don't dislike the local CBC newsfeeds, but whatevs, it's no different than from what I get from any other news channel.

Verdict: Kill the CBC. Fund Basic Income. ye- ah
 

Polymorph

TRIBE Member
Y'now, given that we're still a *colony* of Britain........ I don't understand how the BBC has managed to attain such relevance, while our humble CBC here has not. '
Is it because BBC1 openly broadcasts Glatonbury, whereas the CBC here doesn't even bother to broadcast Coachella?
Is it because the BBC has shows like Dr Who. etc? And the CBC has what.
ok fine drunk end of rant
 
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basketballjones

TRIBE Member
I don't think they even do math. A welfare benefit or basic annual income is money that just disappears in the void.

they don't even know how to connect economic effects or factor in how this cycles through the economy keeping businesses flush with customers all over the place because when poor people get cheques, unlike rich people, they spend them

As I said "ideological autopilot" - there's no story that can't be shoehorned into some partisan war whose shape was defined back in 1984.

meanwhile adults - conservative and liberal alike - know how to do math and consider something on its merits, and were it not for the bleatings of anchronisms like bbj, stuck rooted in the ideological battles of the recent past, we might have something here that people across the spectrum could agree on!
this has nothing to do with parties. this has to do with feasibility. it is not feasible
if it were it would have been implemented all over the place
so back up your bleating please and prove what you are saying isnt ideological autopilot based from a partisan war in 1984

it sounds great, just like raising the min wage does. but it has been proven that companies simply cut workers and demand more from the workers still with a job
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
What if it was more efficient than doling out benefits with all the cumbersome rules and bureaucracy ?

I thought you were all about the incompetence of government - why are you against ideas that might streamline the government and get it doing less stuff it would only fuck up anyway?
 

Polymorph

TRIBE Member
Here's another new VICE articles vaguely related to *Basic Income*, but it's one that amuses me:

Nearly Half of Canadian Students Can Barely Afford to Eat | VICE | Canada

Amusing, because, as you well know, many Canadian students can barely afford to eat, yet each year they regularly toss their super-valuable textbooks in the garbage, along with everything else, including everything IKEA and the entire contents of their food pantries.

Well, at least where I live.
 

Lojack

TRIBE Member
LOL when I saw that earlier today the exact two things I thought of, in order, were: (1) Starving students, duh and (2) they throw out their text books and that guy from Tribe makes a lot of money from that.
 

Lojack

TRIBE Member
I ran the numbers on basic income once and the results were rather terrifying. The only way to pay for it would be to slash and burn most government services and/or raise taxes to 1970's Britain levels (think 95% taxes for the highest incomes).
 
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basketballjones

TRIBE Member
or just borrow the money!!
budgets balance themselves when you grow the ecomony from the heart
cue unicorns and rainbows and shirtless jt
 

Lojack

TRIBE Member
To be fair, my calculation was based on $25k/year as a BUI. Though I did not factor inflation once I had done the initial calculations, I figured that would just drive me to tears.
 

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
if that almost drove you to tears what are your thoughts on the prov libs plans and the fed libs plans?
jump off a building yet?
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
If you pick a bad model for the basic income, it will look unworkable.

Other models look different and won't be unaffordable, or could be even more efficient than our current welfare state.

Depends on your assumptions, what you're counting and not counting, what the details of the policy are, how far you follow the economic impacts through the economy
 
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basketballjones

TRIBE Member
based on what you have seen so far with the prov liberals, who even their own ppl said the green energy was written on the back of a napking and ignored their own ppls cries to stop and think it through, how do you think this will work out?

they could not make a hand shake work that didnt cost us a billion with nothing to show for it

ehealth
gas plants
insurance reforms
health premium
green energy...
this list goes on and on
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
It's not just about the Wynne government , lots of conservatives talking about this in the US and peeps in europe giving it a trial
 

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
i await the announcement of this curing everything that ails


but before that, i am afraid of the cost to "study" it that will entail. we dont have a lot of good luck (except the ppl are paid to "study" whatever is the bad thing de jour) of finding ways to not make it crazy expensive and completely lose sight of the actual study to only be shelved and then re studied the next year, rinse and repeat
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
It's because you don't engage with ideas you run them through your cynicism/partisan matrix and *make* everything be the same story.

Your obsession with Wynne means you can't even recognize the conservative case for a basic annual income or negative income tax -so busy are you trying to score your partisan points and sing your refrain about government incompetence
 

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
no, that is your story
if you refuse to look at the evidence i cant do anything about that

i talk about wynne because she is the leader of the province i live in, which has been steadily declining since the libs were voted into office. should i talk about anyone else?

every thing they have done has resulted in catastrophe. why would i expect this to be different? the fact you think it wont result in the same result means you are ignoring the past and hoping against hope the same mistakes wont be repeated

who am i trying to score points with?? this place is loaded with lib voters, i didnt know this was a high score game. here i thought i was simply talking about horrid mismanagement
 

wickedken

TRIBE Member
the basic income will eventually be everywhere to bribe the majority of people who will be put out of work because of technology. it will be good in theory because you can decide to do anything with your time, which is the premise of technology itself - to free the person from the need to work. but I'm thinking this is going to be an excuse to actually withdraw and reduce the level of government involvement in many spheres, similar to the freedom of serfs, who became free to contract for less money, work all the time, and receive nothing of what they used to get from lords.
 

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
that sounds suspiciously like union talk

is the "not working for a living but want more and will hire kinnear to be our lord" union not so far off in our future

scummy weasels gonna scummy weasel
 
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