So the holocaust had little to do with "ideological excess" and a whole lot more to do with godlessness and atheism? We card-carrying atheists, agnostics, and humanists need to start addressing all of those killings that weren't in the name of a god or gods, but rather, were done for reasons that did not have religion as the central motivator? You cannot be serious, Colm.
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~*...the atheist bus campaign...*~
- Thread starter that 420 guy
- Start date
spaboy said:You should have asked their marketing director prior to ok'ing this ad.
The article explains that "probably" was inserted in order to be able to run the ad. Would it be somehow illegal to ad "There is no God"? Apparently it would be in England.
To be sure, Richard Dawkins is definitely an atheist, not agnostic. The slogan comes off as agnostic in order to be printable -- but the intent behind it is purely atheistic. ie., the assertion that really, there is no God.
-jM
A&D
wayne kenoff said:
It probably has a lot to do with the fact that socialist regimes have consistently outright banned religious affiliation. Case in point, Soviet Russia, China, Communist Cuba -- though in recent times Cuba has eased up, USSR fell apart, and China -- well I don't know what's going on there anymore.
-jM
A&D
Flashy_McFlash
Well-Known TRIBEr
Why do you seem so upset?
Colm said:
A couple of other people have covered some of the points that I had in response to your post, but I will say a few more things:
One huge difference between the murderous attacks of the various churches and those of "atheism" is that the armies of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc were not killing in the name of atheism; they each had their own particular cause. Conversely, the various major religions have all displayed a great zeal for killing those of other faiths (or no faith) simply for the reason of not being "one of us". How many indigenous lives and cultures were destroyed by Christian crusaders/explorers? How many lives would an organization like Hezbollah snuff out in order to expand the Muslim "empire" an extra kilometre? How many examples of "Godly" genocide exist in the Torah?
As for "taking the time to address past wrongs", I'm sure that the Catholic and Protestant Churches' millions of victims over the centuries really appreciate the fact that some 80-year-old European man waddled out onto a balcony and tossed out a few words on their behalf in the year 200_! I mean, it was "nice" of the churches to apologize for past abuses in the way that it's "nice" for a drunk driver to apologize at his sentencing for mowing down a pregnant pedestrian. It looks good in a history book, but ultimately means fuck all.
Religions essentially wield their power in as flagrant a manner as they can get away with. When the church was the centre of society in pre-Enlightenment Europe and colonial North America, it acted with impunity to marginalize, imprison or outright murder its opponents. Now that the various churches have been reduced to God Fan Clubs in the civilized world, they content themselves with meddling in things like family law and reproductive rights. Where religion still holds considerable power (South America, middle east, Africa), you still see all kinds of human rights abuses that are either condoned or directly encouraged by the leadership of the religions responsible.
Flashy_McFlash
Well-Known TRIBEr
Where did you get the 60% stat?
Flashy_McFlash
Well-Known TRIBEr
Apparently Manitoba is hovering around 170% agnostic.
sheik rock
TRIBE Member
Agnostic is what atheists tell their Granma so she doesn't cry.
The Watcher
TRIBE Member
Atheists hope (don't pray) to bring ads to Toronto
Canadians say dialogue 'a healthy thing'
JEFF GRAY
From Friday's Globe and Mail
January 16, 2009 at 4:37 AM EST
The atheist slogan, "There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life," may soon be coming to subways and buses in Canada's largest city.
The Toronto-based Freethought Association of Canada, inspired by a campaign that has plastered British buses with the phrase, has contacted the private firm that handles ads on the Toronto Transit Commission to see if the message would violate any rules. Organizers plan to launch a fundraising page on the website atheistbus.ca in the next few days.
The British campaign, which has inspired similar moves in Washington, Barcelona and Madrid, has sparked complaints to the country's advertising authority and a backlash from the evangelical group Christian Voice, which has proclaimed that Britain is in "deep sin."
Here in Canada, reaction to the idea from religious groups reached by The Globe and Mail was muted.
Journalist Ariane Sherine, who came up with the idea to have 800 buses in Britain carry a message promoting atheism, has endorsed a similar campaign in Toronto, where organizers hope to raise $6,000 to place ads on buses and in subway stations. (Leon Neal/AFP/Getty Images)
Neil MacCarthy, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Toronto, said it was difficult to comment on ads that he hasn't seen.
"The reality is that organized religion is often an easy target," he said. "... At the same time, this type of campaign would likely generate discussion and dialogue around faith. And that can be a healthy thing, as long as it is done respectfully."
The moderator of the United Church of Canada, Right Rev. David Giuliano, said he would rather see atheists say what they believe in, rather than what they are against.
But, pointing out that his church also uses advertising, he said he has some sympathy with the impetus behind the ads.
"I think most of these ads ... are responding to a version of God and Christianity that is grounded in a kind of judgment and fear and guilt," Mr. Giuliano said in an interview. "I don't believe in that God either."
Mohamed Elmasry, founder of the Canadian Islamic Congress, said he had no problem with the ads: "They have a system of belief like anybody else, and they are entitled to live with this system and also propagate it among others."
The effort to bring atheist ads to Toronto's transit system started with a Facebook group.
The website atheistbus.ca was launched this week by Chris Hammond, a first-year political science student at York University who has joined with the Freethought Association to mount a campaign.
The effort has been endorsed by Ariane Sherine, the British journalist and comedy writer who launched the London campaign.
Echoing Ms. Sherine - who said she wanted to counter London bus ads referring people to a website warning that non-Christians would roast in a "lake of fire," - Mr. Hammond, 22, said he wanted to answer ads quoting Bible verses that he had seen on TTC buses.
"There's atheists that are out there. This will show them they are not alone," Mr. Hammond said.
Organizers hope to raise at least $6,000 to buy ads on the TTC, which run from $315 for the back of a bus to $700 for a subway ad, said Katie Kish, vice-president of multimedia for the Freethought Association.
Toronto organizers can only hope - rather than pray, of course - for the reception that greeted the British campaign.
Originally, organizers there had aimed to raise £5,500, or about $10,000, to put ads on 30 London buses. Instead, they raised more than £144,000.
(The qualifier "probably" was included in the slogan both to satisfy Britain's ad regulator and scientific atheists, who reject anything that smacks of faith.)
TTC vice-chairman Joe Mihevc, a former Christian theologian who has long sat on the ad-review committee, said he would welcome the atheist ads: "What better place to have one of the key theological, philosophical debates of our time but on public transit?"
Canadians say dialogue 'a healthy thing'
JEFF GRAY
From Friday's Globe and Mail
January 16, 2009 at 4:37 AM EST
The atheist slogan, "There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life," may soon be coming to subways and buses in Canada's largest city.
The Toronto-based Freethought Association of Canada, inspired by a campaign that has plastered British buses with the phrase, has contacted the private firm that handles ads on the Toronto Transit Commission to see if the message would violate any rules. Organizers plan to launch a fundraising page on the website atheistbus.ca in the next few days.
The British campaign, which has inspired similar moves in Washington, Barcelona and Madrid, has sparked complaints to the country's advertising authority and a backlash from the evangelical group Christian Voice, which has proclaimed that Britain is in "deep sin."
Here in Canada, reaction to the idea from religious groups reached by The Globe and Mail was muted.
Journalist Ariane Sherine, who came up with the idea to have 800 buses in Britain carry a message promoting atheism, has endorsed a similar campaign in Toronto, where organizers hope to raise $6,000 to place ads on buses and in subway stations. (Leon Neal/AFP/Getty Images)
Neil MacCarthy, a spokesman for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Toronto, said it was difficult to comment on ads that he hasn't seen.
"The reality is that organized religion is often an easy target," he said. "... At the same time, this type of campaign would likely generate discussion and dialogue around faith. And that can be a healthy thing, as long as it is done respectfully."
The moderator of the United Church of Canada, Right Rev. David Giuliano, said he would rather see atheists say what they believe in, rather than what they are against.
But, pointing out that his church also uses advertising, he said he has some sympathy with the impetus behind the ads.
"I think most of these ads ... are responding to a version of God and Christianity that is grounded in a kind of judgment and fear and guilt," Mr. Giuliano said in an interview. "I don't believe in that God either."
Mohamed Elmasry, founder of the Canadian Islamic Congress, said he had no problem with the ads: "They have a system of belief like anybody else, and they are entitled to live with this system and also propagate it among others."
The effort to bring atheist ads to Toronto's transit system started with a Facebook group.
The website atheistbus.ca was launched this week by Chris Hammond, a first-year political science student at York University who has joined with the Freethought Association to mount a campaign.
The effort has been endorsed by Ariane Sherine, the British journalist and comedy writer who launched the London campaign.
Echoing Ms. Sherine - who said she wanted to counter London bus ads referring people to a website warning that non-Christians would roast in a "lake of fire," - Mr. Hammond, 22, said he wanted to answer ads quoting Bible verses that he had seen on TTC buses.
"There's atheists that are out there. This will show them they are not alone," Mr. Hammond said.
Organizers hope to raise at least $6,000 to buy ads on the TTC, which run from $315 for the back of a bus to $700 for a subway ad, said Katie Kish, vice-president of multimedia for the Freethought Association.
Toronto organizers can only hope - rather than pray, of course - for the reception that greeted the British campaign.
Originally, organizers there had aimed to raise £5,500, or about $10,000, to put ads on 30 London buses. Instead, they raised more than £144,000.
(The qualifier "probably" was included in the slogan both to satisfy Britain's ad regulator and scientific atheists, who reject anything that smacks of faith.)
TTC vice-chairman Joe Mihevc, a former Christian theologian who has long sat on the ad-review committee, said he would welcome the atheist ads: "What better place to have one of the key theological, philosophical debates of our time but on public transit?"
praktik
TRIBE Member
Genesius said:I wonder if the TTC will allow "Jesus is Lord, repent or perish"?
edit: oh sorry, it should say "Probably, Jesus is Lord; repent or perish."
That way it makes no truth claim.
They do allow christian messages - what about that series of biblical quotes? Some of those seemed pretty old testament-ey to me...
They do allow christian messages - what about that series of biblical quotes? Some of those seemed pretty old testament-ey to me...
On the TTC? I don't remember that. Got any examples?
The most recent ones that I saw were for some church in Etobicoke, and ran (fairly lukewarm) biblical passages under the heading "Bus Stop Bible Studies."
acheron
TRIBE Member
http://www.mississauganews.com/article/6660
September 11, 2007 11:19 PM - The City of Mississauga is refusing to sell ad space on its transit buses to a Christian group for religious messages, prompting the organization to question the municipality's advertising policy.
“We’re a federally-registered charity and publicly launched our ministry last December. Since that time, we’ve placed more than 800 ‘studies’ inside TTC buses and subway cars, and on the backs of buses,” said David Harrison, president of Scarborough-based Bus Stop Bible Studies.
Typically, an ad contains a bible verse or passage, along with a thought-provoking question or comment that will cause the reader to think about what he or she has just read.
“We don’t preach, and we don’t allow any kind of offensive or controversial message,” Harrison told The News, noting the ads conform to the TTC’s advertising standards and the Canadian Advertising Standards Council.
Based upon the “great success” of its ads in Toronto, the organization wants to expand to other large cities. So far, he says, Bus Stop Bible Studies has received approval from transit companies in Abbotsford, B.C., Calgary, Lethbridge, Ottawa, Stratford and Waterloo, among other municipalities.
But it has received a firm thumbs down in Mississauga.
“We were told that religious advertising is not allowed on buses, because Mississauga Transit does not want to field calls from clients regarding this topic,” Harrison said.
In a letter to Mayor Hazel McCallion, Harrison noted the Ontario Human Rights Code prohibits discrimination on the basis of creed in the provision of services, such as advertising.
“Accordingly, there would be grounds for a complaint if the position is a blanket refusal to accept religious advertising," he said.
Harrison also referred to a recent British Columbia case that determined the Canadian Charter of Rights is applicable to a publicly-owned transit authority in respect to freedom of expression pertaining to advertising on buses.
However, in her response, McCallion said the law “clearly provides that the rights under both the Human Rights Code and the Charter of Rights are subject to reasonable restrictions.
“It is my opinion that (the City’s) restrictions are reasonable and necessary for the purpose of providing good governance,” said McCallion. “The City’s policy was established in good faith to ensure that the City remains neutral and refrains from implementing measures that could favour one religion over another or that might have an effect of imposing one religion over another...”
McCallion says the City wants to prevent conflicts and alienation among the many ethnic and religious groups in Mississauga.
But Harrison doesn’t buy that argument.
“Our experiences in Toronto completely contradict any conflicts and alienation amongst ethnic and religious groups,” he said. “To our knowledge, only five criticisms have been received and they come from atheists and non-religious individuals.”
Harrison acknowledges that because of those complaints, his program is under review by the TTC.
He's asking the City of Mississauga to reconsider and allow a trial placing of ads for eight weeks.
September 11, 2007 11:19 PM - The City of Mississauga is refusing to sell ad space on its transit buses to a Christian group for religious messages, prompting the organization to question the municipality's advertising policy.
“We’re a federally-registered charity and publicly launched our ministry last December. Since that time, we’ve placed more than 800 ‘studies’ inside TTC buses and subway cars, and on the backs of buses,” said David Harrison, president of Scarborough-based Bus Stop Bible Studies.
Typically, an ad contains a bible verse or passage, along with a thought-provoking question or comment that will cause the reader to think about what he or she has just read.
“We don’t preach, and we don’t allow any kind of offensive or controversial message,” Harrison told The News, noting the ads conform to the TTC’s advertising standards and the Canadian Advertising Standards Council.
Based upon the “great success” of its ads in Toronto, the organization wants to expand to other large cities. So far, he says, Bus Stop Bible Studies has received approval from transit companies in Abbotsford, B.C., Calgary, Lethbridge, Ottawa, Stratford and Waterloo, among other municipalities.
But it has received a firm thumbs down in Mississauga.
“We were told that religious advertising is not allowed on buses, because Mississauga Transit does not want to field calls from clients regarding this topic,” Harrison said.
In a letter to Mayor Hazel McCallion, Harrison noted the Ontario Human Rights Code prohibits discrimination on the basis of creed in the provision of services, such as advertising.
“Accordingly, there would be grounds for a complaint if the position is a blanket refusal to accept religious advertising," he said.
Harrison also referred to a recent British Columbia case that determined the Canadian Charter of Rights is applicable to a publicly-owned transit authority in respect to freedom of expression pertaining to advertising on buses.
However, in her response, McCallion said the law “clearly provides that the rights under both the Human Rights Code and the Charter of Rights are subject to reasonable restrictions.
“It is my opinion that (the City’s) restrictions are reasonable and necessary for the purpose of providing good governance,” said McCallion. “The City’s policy was established in good faith to ensure that the City remains neutral and refrains from implementing measures that could favour one religion over another or that might have an effect of imposing one religion over another...”
McCallion says the City wants to prevent conflicts and alienation among the many ethnic and religious groups in Mississauga.
But Harrison doesn’t buy that argument.
“Our experiences in Toronto completely contradict any conflicts and alienation amongst ethnic and religious groups,” he said. “To our knowledge, only five criticisms have been received and they come from atheists and non-religious individuals.”
Harrison acknowledges that because of those complaints, his program is under review by the TTC.
He's asking the City of Mississauga to reconsider and allow a trial placing of ads for eight weeks.
Bass-Invader
TRIBE Member
i saw some of these ads today on the buses. my life wasn't changed though.