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Tankless water heaters?
- Thread starter alexd
- Start date
They seem to be the norm over here.
I've had no trouble with them, other than when the pilot light went out in the one in my old place. Ours now also does our heat too, and you can hear it cycle on and off occasionally if you're close to it.
I haven't had to pay to install one though.
I've had no trouble with them, other than when the pilot light went out in the one in my old place. Ours now also does our heat too, and you can hear it cycle on and off occasionally if you're close to it.
I haven't had to pay to install one though.
Flashy_McFlash
Well-Known TRIBEr
Just got one and it's BOMB-ASS. Hot water all the time, the thing is the size of a shoebox, and you're saving on electricity. If you ever plan on putting a hot tub or anything like that in your home, it's a must.
Our contractor did the install and it was ~$3000. And we'll get some money back from Enwise for it.
A coworker of mine has been looking into getting one. He has said that he thinks he will see a payoff after 4 years. This is with a significant discount on price and installation because he has a close friend who's a contractor. My coworker also has a family of four.
My feeling is that for a large family with large water consumption they are worth looking in to but for the person who lives alone or with one other person the heaters might not be a good investement unless you plan to be there for a long time.
You need to try and work out how much energy you are using now to heat your hot water and then figure out what the tankless heater will do for you.
Flashy_McFlash
Well-Known TRIBEr
For us, the size consideration was pretty huge. Going from a tank that's the size of Andre The Giant to the tankless unit which is literally the size of a shoebox will allow us a lot more options in our basement reno.
kirstenmeows
TRIBE Member
Tankless water heaters are amazing. I have had one for the last ten years, and while it was a pain in the ass when initially installed (new in Canada, and no one from enbridge had a clue how to fix them), things have changed dramatically. You will never run out of hot water, as it heats the water as needed. This is perfect for those who have large families or enjoy extended hot showers. You'll save money on hydro, as your hot water is not constantly being heated. As Flashy said, there's no monster sized water tank taking up space. Most of these systems also heat your home, and are very efficient. The only real downsides that I experienced were the fact that you really do have to have someone come in and maintain the unit at least once a year (even though the older systems say the same, many of us don't), and when there's a power failure, it will fail as it's powered by hydro and there's no reserve hot water in a tank to use if needed.
All in all though, it is a great system, and I would highly recommend it. It does qualify for the tax credits that are now available, and many companies will offer to pay for the home audit itself if you have them do the installation.
All in all though, it is a great system, and I would highly recommend it. It does qualify for the tax credits that are now available, and many companies will offer to pay for the home audit itself if you have them do the installation.
Have you considered solar? Toronto is now piloting a rebate program.
I assume you mean you're saving on natural gas charges and not electricity?
From what I've read, these things are good if you're the right kind of person and if you get the right kind of unit.
You have to keep in mind that as water enters the unit, it goes through a series of burners to super heat the water. The flow of the water is important because if the flow of water is too great, it won't have a chance to heat up as much water volume compared to a low flow. Complaints I've heard are that someone could be taking a shower and someone else is washing the dishes. Both need hot water and now the unit is having to deliver to two locations. It's capacity is sorta split in half now. Yes both will get heated water but perhaps not at the same strength or worse, not at the same temperature. This forces you to lower the amount of cold water you're using to get more heat from the overall runoff. If you get a unit that's powerful enough, you use less hot water and hopefully can distribute it throughout the house better. But definitely not for using it with a hot tub (at least to my knowledge).
One other complaint or gripe about the units is in relation to the cost of utilities that we pay in Ontario. Due to our lower costs, it will take sometimes up to 10 years before you start seeing a payback on those things. Like others have mentioned, if you plan on staying there a long time and use a lot of hot water, yeah go for it. However, if you're not going to be investing much time in your house, don't bother with the expense. I'm still on the fence about it and I plan on staying where I live for a very long time.
Lobo
I think I posted about this somewhere already but...
My last apartment had a new, tankless heater. Now, I have a hot water tank in a house.
The nice thing about the tankless variety is that you do get a never ending supply of extremely hot water. This is great for extended showers or large baths.
but....
I really doubt it would be good for 'large families' as its ability to support more than one hot water using device at a time is low.
Also, the water that it delivered was tooo hot, as in, you never really need water that hot.
What I do now, with my water tank, is reduce the setting to the point where, the hottest water it delivers is great for a hot shower. So, in the shower or to do dishes i just use 100% 'hot' water, and it comes out at comfortably hot. This is somewhere around 25% or 'warm' on the tank's temperature setting. This works fine for me since I'm the only one living in the place and never use all the water in the tank. At this setting, during the summer when I'm not using any gas heat, my gas bill is low, around $10 monthly. The tankless heater, also for just me, was at least $40 to $60 a month.
Granted at the low temperature setting there's not enough hot water to fill up a large bathtub -- but there's more than enough for a couple people to take simultaneous showers (in different showers).
Talking about water is fun!
-jM
A&D
My last apartment had a new, tankless heater. Now, I have a hot water tank in a house.
The nice thing about the tankless variety is that you do get a never ending supply of extremely hot water. This is great for extended showers or large baths.
but....
I really doubt it would be good for 'large families' as its ability to support more than one hot water using device at a time is low.
Also, the water that it delivered was tooo hot, as in, you never really need water that hot.
What I do now, with my water tank, is reduce the setting to the point where, the hottest water it delivers is great for a hot shower. So, in the shower or to do dishes i just use 100% 'hot' water, and it comes out at comfortably hot. This is somewhere around 25% or 'warm' on the tank's temperature setting. This works fine for me since I'm the only one living in the place and never use all the water in the tank. At this setting, during the summer when I'm not using any gas heat, my gas bill is low, around $10 monthly. The tankless heater, also for just me, was at least $40 to $60 a month.
Granted at the low temperature setting there's not enough hot water to fill up a large bathtub -- but there's more than enough for a couple people to take simultaneous showers (in different showers).
Talking about water is fun!
-jM
A&D
rswbrixton
TRIBE Member
Two thumbs up on tankless !! Currently using a Rinnai with coecentric vent - ease of install and looks tidy on the exterior . My kwh useage with hydro has decreased and average of 2 to 3 kilowatts hours per day - versus the power vented Rheem in previous house. Silent - increased floor space in mechanical room - I can remotely control water temp via off board stat ( still requires wire linkage - stat wire )
Flow rate modulates the gas firing rate - from say 30,000 btuh to 185,000 btuh .
Please try to install on a Non - windprevailing wall - as there have been some circumstances of heatexchangers freezing and splitting with cold air rushing down the vent over a period of no useage of appliance - hard to say how many hours of down time - but i expect amabient temp will play with the figure .
Bosch - Tagaki - Rinnai - Waewella - Viessman -NTI are just a few of many that are now available throughout Ontario .
Flow rate modulates the gas firing rate - from say 30,000 btuh to 185,000 btuh .
Please try to install on a Non - windprevailing wall - as there have been some circumstances of heatexchangers freezing and splitting with cold air rushing down the vent over a period of no useage of appliance - hard to say how many hours of down time - but i expect amabient temp will play with the figure .
Bosch - Tagaki - Rinnai - Waewella - Viessman -NTI are just a few of many that are now available throughout Ontario .
yah, on demand heaters are the norm in europe and most of the developed world these days...god knows why we haven't really adopted them here as much. I suppose because comparatively we have tons of room compared to other cities.
they work really well and use less power to run because they're not always keeping water hot.
they work really well and use less power to run because they're not always keeping water hot.
I have this hot water tank that came with my house on a rental contract with Enbridge. If I got a tankless system, does Enbridge have to do the installation (disconnect the existing tank), or can I shop around for a tankless system and have it installed by the new supplier?
Flashy_McFlash
Well-Known TRIBEr
You can absolutely have someone else do the install and disconnect the old one. Enbridge is going to charge you $75 to take the old tank back, but if you know someone with a truck and about an hour to spare, you can take it over there to avoid that fee. The place we dropped it off at was around Lawrence and Dufferin.
Tankless
Normally, i just use this forum to check out the upcoming events, but saw this post on tankless water heaters and felt compelled to comment. I've been working in the industry for a few years and thought I should reply. (Yes, I registered just for this).
I've worked for two companies thus far who sell and install tankless systems. Both sell Rinnai and Navien units. Navien systems are slightly more expensive and 98% efficient, but both will run you about $3000 for install.
If you want, you can fork out the $300 (or so) for the first ecoENERGY evaluation *the federal government will rebate half of the cost of the first evaluation (up to $150). After installation, you will be required to have a post-replacement evaluation and that will run you about $150 and there is no rebate for this. You will get back $500 from the goverment. To find out if it's worth it to you, do the math. Some companies will offer a discount on the equipment if you use them, or their licensed ecoENERGY partner to do the evaluation. These also qualify for the Federal Tax Credit for home renovations.
You can also rent a tankless. Currently Sears has the lowest rental rate of about $30, i think and EnWise is the highest at $39.95/month. You will still qualify for ecoENERGY rebates if you rent and in most, if not all cases, the rental agreement is fully transferrable to a new homeowner, and most should have a buyout. Newten, Reliance and Sears are probably the biggest ones renting. EnWise says they rent, but I think it's actually a financing agreement. Enbridge is now offering a $300 rebate for tankless systems. Most reputable companies sell Rinnai and Navien. I'm not sure about Navien, but Rinnai is a Japanese company that's been around since 1910.
People should keep in mind that these systems are not exactly the same at a hot-box or whatever they call them in Europe/England since many houses have multiple smaller units made only to service the immediate faucet. You must double check your load supply to make sure your gas line can accomodate the equipment - most can, but just in case.
You cannot install a Rinnai or Navien on your own. They don't allow cash-and-carry. This is to protect their warranty and the intergrity of the equipment. If you have hard water, you must have a softener or your warranty is void. If you have low-flow shower heads you must get rid of them since they don't allow for enough pressure to trigger the system.
You can certainly buy and install on your own, the cheaper models they sell at home depot, but with something like this, it's my advice to have it done professionally. Also, you should have a Sales Rep or a professional make sure that the system you're getting is appropriate for your home and your family. Some people run two or more systems depending on the size of your home. Also, you want to make sure that a tankless will go in your home. if you're in a townhouse, it's likely not going to work unless you have a corner unit. If you're in city-centre toronto, you want to make sure you have enough clearance from your neighbours to allow for the venting.
Electric systems are available, but not from Rinnai or Navien and they feel that electric tankless systems aren't worth it for environmental or economical reasons. Rinnai works on natural gars or propane. Navien, if I remember correctly is natural gas only.
Anyway, have fun yanking your tank.
Normally, i just use this forum to check out the upcoming events, but saw this post on tankless water heaters and felt compelled to comment. I've been working in the industry for a few years and thought I should reply. (Yes, I registered just for this).
I've worked for two companies thus far who sell and install tankless systems. Both sell Rinnai and Navien units. Navien systems are slightly more expensive and 98% efficient, but both will run you about $3000 for install.
If you want, you can fork out the $300 (or so) for the first ecoENERGY evaluation *the federal government will rebate half of the cost of the first evaluation (up to $150). After installation, you will be required to have a post-replacement evaluation and that will run you about $150 and there is no rebate for this. You will get back $500 from the goverment. To find out if it's worth it to you, do the math. Some companies will offer a discount on the equipment if you use them, or their licensed ecoENERGY partner to do the evaluation. These also qualify for the Federal Tax Credit for home renovations.
You can also rent a tankless. Currently Sears has the lowest rental rate of about $30, i think and EnWise is the highest at $39.95/month. You will still qualify for ecoENERGY rebates if you rent and in most, if not all cases, the rental agreement is fully transferrable to a new homeowner, and most should have a buyout. Newten, Reliance and Sears are probably the biggest ones renting. EnWise says they rent, but I think it's actually a financing agreement. Enbridge is now offering a $300 rebate for tankless systems. Most reputable companies sell Rinnai and Navien. I'm not sure about Navien, but Rinnai is a Japanese company that's been around since 1910.
People should keep in mind that these systems are not exactly the same at a hot-box or whatever they call them in Europe/England since many houses have multiple smaller units made only to service the immediate faucet. You must double check your load supply to make sure your gas line can accomodate the equipment - most can, but just in case.
You cannot install a Rinnai or Navien on your own. They don't allow cash-and-carry. This is to protect their warranty and the intergrity of the equipment. If you have hard water, you must have a softener or your warranty is void. If you have low-flow shower heads you must get rid of them since they don't allow for enough pressure to trigger the system.
You can certainly buy and install on your own, the cheaper models they sell at home depot, but with something like this, it's my advice to have it done professionally. Also, you should have a Sales Rep or a professional make sure that the system you're getting is appropriate for your home and your family. Some people run two or more systems depending on the size of your home. Also, you want to make sure that a tankless will go in your home. if you're in a townhouse, it's likely not going to work unless you have a corner unit. If you're in city-centre toronto, you want to make sure you have enough clearance from your neighbours to allow for the venting.
Electric systems are available, but not from Rinnai or Navien and they feel that electric tankless systems aren't worth it for environmental or economical reasons. Rinnai works on natural gars or propane. Navien, if I remember correctly is natural gas only.
Anyway, have fun yanking your tank.
This reminds me of the tankless electric type they had in many hotels in (east) Africa, which were installed on single shower heads.
THey often had warnings not to get too close to the shower head. You'd feel it real quickly when failing to heed that warning.
Sketchy times.
-jM
A&D
THey often had warnings not to get too close to the shower head. You'd feel it real quickly when failing to heed that warning.
Sketchy times.
-jM
A&D
greginhali
TRIBE Member
i just had a dude coming around door to door claiming they were from Just energy. THey offer to put in a tankless system for free. He want to hook it up to my natural gas, and claims i will save $. The rental fee is 24 dollars a month?
Im not sure what to do. Im renting an electric tank through direct energy for 8.75 month.
Not sure if the saving are worth it? Any ideas?
Im not sure what to do. Im renting an electric tank through direct energy for 8.75 month.
Not sure if the saving are worth it? Any ideas?
We have one and love it. We got a Baxi and World of Comfort did the installation-- they were amazing and did a great job. It was tricky in our house, since it involved cutting into the floor and routing the vent through a new hole out the side of the house (because we're attached on both sides).
Anyway, endless hot water if you want it, not bigass tank in your basement, and better on the bills.
The minor drawback is that you don't have instant hot water, but this is not a big deal for anyone who can handle turning on the tap 15 seconds before they get hot water.
The more major drawback for us is due to the vent going right into our back yard, so when the hot water is on during the summer and we're hanging out back there we can smell the exhaust, which is kind of like a leaking gas smell. But it's rare that the hot water is being used while we're having out outside. And it's not dangerous in any way, just a minor irritant. This isn't a problem for most houses where it vents out the side of your house.
Anyway, endless hot water if you want it, not bigass tank in your basement, and better on the bills.
The minor drawback is that you don't have instant hot water, but this is not a big deal for anyone who can handle turning on the tap 15 seconds before they get hot water.
The more major drawback for us is due to the vent going right into our back yard, so when the hot water is on during the summer and we're hanging out back there we can smell the exhaust, which is kind of like a leaking gas smell. But it's rare that the hot water is being used while we're having out outside. And it's not dangerous in any way, just a minor irritant. This isn't a problem for most houses where it vents out the side of your house.
In most cities now they are redoing the building codes so that the new enery efficient furnaces and tanks will exhaust into back yards and not the small areas between houses.
Its not just the smell - noise is actually becoming a bigger issue now. Harmonics and echos can makes the quietest system a complete nightmare for neighbours.
Its not just the smell - noise is actually becoming a bigger issue now. Harmonics and echos can makes the quietest system a complete nightmare for neighbours.
greginhali
TRIBE Member
he did mention that it would be vented out to our backyard, our furnace is as well and i dont mind it. Im going to call Enbridge and see what they have to say, i asked my neighbor and he signed right up.
Bernnie Federko
TRIBE Member
Revisiting this as we're in reno/addition mode.
Are these worth it? Would be Gas...
Are these worth it? Would be Gas...
Bernnie Federko
TRIBE Member
Looking at the Rheem RTGH-95DVLN 9.5 GPM Indoor Direct Vent Tankless Natural Gas Water Heater