Suicide Bombers

[Wunderbar]

They are the lowest form of humanity. They have no regard for human life and place no value on any acts in this world, other than murdering people in the name of their God.

The person who blew himself up in Netanya on Wednesday while people were sitting down to a family meal, the hijackers who were responsible for the devastation on September 11, the 18 year old girl who blew herself up this morning in a Jerusalem supermarket may have caused various amounts of harm but they are united by the same mentality: they will be rewarded for their acts of terrorism against the infidels in another life. They are convinced that there is a Zionist-American agenda [see OBL's speeches/articles] to conquer the world and they feel it is their religious duty to prevent it. There is a substantial amount of evidence they are recruited from universities, drugged and brainwashed into believing that their future rewards will be fulfilled [serenaded by virgins, etc.] through violent acts.

These people are not freedom fighters. They are people who are focused on committing criminal acts in the name of their religion. I have no sympathy for them. Violence is never the answer. Ghandi, martin Luther King, Ken Wiwa: they are true freedom fighters.

I don't think attacking Arafat's compound this morning was an appropriate response to the terrorism on israeli soil, but much like Colin powell, I understand why Israel took such action. Arafat is harbouring terrorists in his nation, and although he denounces such terrorist attacks he is either unable or unwilling to prevent the organizations responsible from continuing with them. If Arafat is ineffectual in stopping them, Israel has every right to defend its citizens from random massacres on their soil.

 

[Rosey]

i would argue that the people who convince suicide bombers to make their attacks are the lowest forms of humanity. i almost pity the bomber as much as their victims. their minds must have been seriously warped from a really young age to pull that shit.
it all bad

 

[Fin.K.L]

Some people give up their lives for their love

then some other people have other reason to give up.

 

[junglisthead]

its so easy to say from our perspective, that they are wrong and are the lowest form of humanity

however think about being in their shoes, everything gone to ruins, your own family being slaughtered around you, other countries trying to overrule you

when youve lost everything and have nothing, then you have nothing to lose

there is always 2 sides to a coin

 

[klaarwater]

Indeed - lets remember pre-Isreal - this area was an arab area - with a wide diversity of people in the holy cities, etc. But they with the whole holocost thing, the UN decided to solidify Isreal. Then the little war and Isreal gains some tactical ground through battle. Now whose is whose and what belongs to whom? Well in keeping with the native philosophy - the land belongs to noone - it there and that's it... we have no ownership of it, and frankly Isreal can stop this madness, they are bombing protesters with missiles, destroying homes, etc. How are the Palestinians to fight this occupation of what is traditionally land they occupy. So killing people because of some perceived ownership is wrong.

That goes with what you say about Ghandi and other nonviolent protestors... taking a life for any cause is wrong - see the 10 commandments - something about thou shalt not kill?? Sure there is that eye for and eye foolishness, but really that is no way to deal with social problems. So in the nuances of social thinkers like King, Ghandi, Buddha, etc life is sacred no matter what - and we should be doing what we can to preserve it no matter what.... I really don't care that the Al Queda raized the WTC buildings - they and their supporters do not deserve to die because of a beliefe that is contrary to someone elsed. That aside I don't condone any of the violent actions, but I can empathise with both peoples plights - its really quite sad.

I don't think that this needs to happen - there are deals on the table.... abd besides are the Isrealis so forgetful of how they were treated by the Nazi's - how can they in good faith be oppressing the Palestinians as they do?

And you want to talk about some agenda to take over the world? Pfft - who doesn't - wouldn't a world full of *pick your social movement* types be wonderful - sure. Lets also not forget how AMERIKA is taking over the world... I am more afraid of amerikans than terrorists for *pick your cause*.

 

[mingster]

Although, I think these people must know what the general public thinks of them, I doubt they care. In their eyes, they are doing something noble. They are freeing their families from a worse fate. To them, this is a price they must pay for eternal freedom.

Ming.

 

[Wunderbar]

Originally posted by junglisthead
its so easy to say from our perspective, that they are wrong and are the lowest form of humanity

however think about being in their shoes, everything gone to ruins, your own family being slaughtered around you, other countries trying to overrule you

when youve lost everything and have nothing, then you have nothing to lose

there is always 2 sides to a coin

Evertything gone to ruins? Your family being slaughtered? The terrorists who committed the atrocities on 9/11 lived rather comfortably, financed by an international terrorist organization. OBL comes from one of the wealthiest families in the Middle East, yet he chose the terrorist life.

A lot of the Al Qaeda/Hamas/IJ terrorists are university students who could graduate and lead normal lives. They are not blowing up innocent civilians for strictly political reasons. They do it because they do not value life: they are not living for this world.

The pre-intifada situation in Palestine was not so horrific that the only way to protest was to kill lots of civilians.

I do not feel sorry for Timothy McVeigh, Baruch Goldstein or Osama bin Laden and I do not feel sorry for their disciples.

 

[Wunderbar]

Originally posted by klaarwater


abd besides are the Isrealis so forgetful of how they were treated by the Nazi's - how can they in good faith be oppressing the Palestinians as they do?

The Nazis made a concerted effort to locate, concentrate, and exterminate every Jewish person living in Europe. Get that??? Locate--> concentrate-->Exterminate. It was genocide: the attempted annihilation of an entire race of people. Ever hear of the Final Solution? The Nazis were only 1/3 "successful", "only" killing 6 million Jewish men, women, children and babies.

How is this even on the same level as the Israeli occupation of the West bank, an area that israel occupied after the surrounding 6 Arab nations attempted to drive them into the sea in the 1967 6 Day War? The israeli soldiers are not bent on genocide. They are not instructed to kill civilians.

How can you compare genocide and occupation?????

 

[recoil]

suicide bombing is abhorrent.

unfortunately Israel does not respect human life either.

Sharon was directly involved with the massacre at Shatila in 1982. he is a war criminal who is responsible for the murder of men women and children. i encourage anyone to go look it up for themselves.

i saw some footage of Israeli soldiers the other night on the news. the Israeili military tried to stop it from being shown, but the news agency broke their contract and showed it anyway.

it showed these bitch ass soldiers, all or 18 or 19, terrorizing a family of refugess in a camp they were ocupying.

i am not sure how she was injured, but the mother lay mortally wounded on the floor. the soldiers gave her no assistance and delayed the arrival of an ambulance, despite the pleas of her husband and children

they also begged them not to break down their wall, but they did anyway.

the soldiers were interviewed outside the dwelling. one said, with the most arrogant contemptuous look on his face...

"why are we here? a purification? it is dirty here. i don't know why a hebrew soldier is so far from his home."

the other was asked how he felt about what they had done to the palestinian family

"was it so bad? i don't think so"

the injured mother whom they had denied medical attention died soon after .

these particular soldiers are very low life forms, and, like the suicide bombers, are brainwashed to believe they are superior because of their ethnicity and religion. - i'm sure there are hundreds more who are just as bad, if not worse. think of all the shit that goes on off-camera.

what they are doing is no better than what SS stormtroopers did to Jewish people in Warsaw during WW II.

how can someone emigrate to Israel and make trouble for people who have lived there for ages? destroying their orchards, bulldozing their homes?? bloodyminded people who like to make trouble, apparently. it's apartheid.

how would we feel if droves of people started immigrating here (with American backing), forced us into ghettos, and terrorized and humiliated our families

what would we do?

once again, suicide bombing is terrible terrible terrible and completely wrong.

targeting civilians is so wrong. but both sides are murdering civilians. 2 weeks ago an Israeli tank fired a shell at the car belonging to an activist. he wasn't in the car at the time. his wife and 5 children were blown to pieces. the Israeli government claims they were aiming at some unspecified target. what the fuck!!!??!!

i can understand why someone would decide to become a militant. after so much frustration and humliation, what do they have to lose???

i would become militant too if some arrogant punk came to my home and terrorized my family. at least i could still respect myself.

people need to be given opportunities and hope.

when you deprive people of their dignity, with no end in sight, anything can happen.

 

[kurtz]

extreme literal interpretations of the two religious texts in question do not make any sense to me

take for example, this quote for the Old Testament:

2Kings 2:23

"From there Elisha went up to Bethal. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two (she) bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria."

'things that make you go hummmmmmmm'
~arsenio

 

[kodos]

the settlers have to get out of the occupied territories, sharon has to stop inflaming relations with arafat, arafat actually has to do SOMETHING, and shit will get worked out. these suicide bombings really DO harm the palestinian cause... its just sick, what they do, and there is no amount of justification that can be applied to the issue... its like charlie manson brainwashing people - who is the real evil here? everyone wants to prolong the conflict to their own political ends and human lives are the trade-off. this kind of calculating power maneouvering has to stop!

 

[Wunderbar]

Originally posted by recoil
suicide bombing is abhorrent.


what they are doing is no better than what SS stormtroopers did to Jewish people in Warsaw during WW II.

.

This comparison completely trivializes the Holocaust. The behaviour of those Israeli soldiers is completely abhorrent. And they deserve to be punished severely. But their actions are not a reflection of Israeli policy. It is an isolated incident that will be investigated and you can bet your bottom dollar that Israel, a democracy with a rule of law and a Constitution [much like ourselves and unlike a virtually lawless, dictatorship in Palestine] will punish those responsible.

But you cannot compare the Holocaust , an organized, meticulous, institutionally backed plan to wipe out an entire race of people, with the isolated acts of a few evil soldiers that completely contravene the nation's policy. The Jews of Eastern Europe were rounded together like cattle and sent to gas chambers en masse. If the Germans were successful in WW2, there would be no Jewish people alive today.

It saddens me to see people throw around the Holocaust as if it described every bad thing that happens on a daily basis. It demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what happened 60 years ago in Europe.


As a side note, people look at the death toll in the intafada and see that 3 times as many palestinians have died than israelis. What the raw numbers do not show is the circumstances of death. The majority of the Palestinians that have been killed int he uprising have died with a weapon by their side. They were active participants in the "uprising". [Thisis not to say innocent Palestinians have died. They indeed have and it is extremely horrible when it does happen. However the percentage of innocents is rather small] The majority of the israelis that have perished were civilians losing their lives while partaking in activities we as Canadians take for granted: walking the streets, eating in a pizzeria, dancing at a nightclub, sitting down for a family dinner.

 

[PosTMOd]

Originally posted by Wunderbar
we as Canadians take for granted: walking the streets, eating in a pizzeria, dancing at a nightclub, sitting down for a family dinner.

Dancing at a nightclub maybe, but those other things are quite foreign to me. Eating at a pizzeria? Wha?

 

[A Nony Mouse]

its easy for us to sit here outside of it all, criticising and correcting. how many of you can truly conceive what hell it is in the middle east right now, myself included! all i know is how i feel as a first generation palestinian canadian. did your parents come to this country on refugee status because mine did. before i come across too harsh i should say that at this point no one is right anymore. we, the palestinian people destroy ourselves and our own cause by our lack of solidarity, and the israeli government destroys its cause by having a war criminal as its spokesperson. it is pointless to lay blame at this point because both sides are just as accountable now. as much as we would like to romanticise the situation regardless of which side, if any, you find yourself leaning towards. as pointed out already, when you have nothing to lose you might as well give up your life if that might make thing better. of course this does not justify suicide bombings by any means, but it might make you understand how it can happen. it frustrates me should this situation be taking place anywhere else in the world nations would be up in arms about the injustice to humanity and yet instead the US supplies the israeli army with weaponry(did you think they were making it themselves). the entire situation is a big pile of bullshit. i say this as a palestinian. i am losing all hope and i am not even in the midst of the struggle. if you think the media portrays accuracy then you are living in an illusion in my opinion. its funny how israel asys they will not harm arafat and yet they bomb the compound he is within. im cynical right now having come off watching an evening of news, but none of us(myself included, even being of the cultural background i am) can truly appreciate what it is like. i have many more thoughts right now but they keep drifting in and out of my conciousness. i apologise for the ramble but i am tired of this all. dont judge that which you do not know.

 

[junglisthead]

Originally posted by Wunderbar


Evertything gone to ruins? Your family being slaughtered? The terrorists who committed the atrocities on 9/11 lived rather comfortably, financed by an international terrorist organization. OBL comes from one of the wealthiest families in the Middle East, yet he chose the terrorist life.

A lot of the Al Qaeda/Hamas/IJ terrorists are university students who could graduate and lead normal lives. They are not blowing up innocent civilians for strictly political reasons. They do it because they do not value life: they are not living for this world.

The pre-intifada situation in Palestine was not so horrific that the only way to protest was to kill lots of civilians.

I do not feel sorry for Timothy McVeigh, Baruch Goldstein or Osama bin Laden and I do not feel sorry for their disciples.

noone told you to feel sorry for them, the fact remains there is always two sides to every coin

for you to blunty say, that they are not doing it for political reasons, shows me the ignorance you have towards these issues

 

[Wunderbar]

Originally posted by junglisthead




for you to blunty say, that they are not doing it for political reasons, shows me the ignorance you have towards these issues

Read my post again. I said they don't do it for STRICTLY political reasons.

My point is, most of these terrorists act out of religious fanaticism. While political factors trigger discontent, it's the religious brainwashing that translates the disconent into acts of terror.
Whether it's Timothy McVeigh blowing up the Federal building in oklahoma city, Mohammad Atta flying a commercial airliner into the South Tower, Baruch Goldstein firing away at Moslems as they pray or the extremist Buddhist sect who released sarin gas in a Tokyo subway, it's fanatacism that seperates those who are unhappy and are willing to find a compromise and negotiate from those who kill to get their message across.

And the situation in Palestine is not so desperate that it warrants killing innocent Israeli civilians, especially when it can be argued that the main reason for the plight of the average Palestinian is not Israel, but rather Arafat's ineffectiveness as a leader. Palestine is not a democracy, they do not have an open media, terrorist organizations are basically in control and the government has a debt crisis.

 

[junglisthead]

talk about brainwashing, your post reeks of typcial pro american propaganda

those people are the bad people, they are the evil enemies

its sad, but the fact remains, those who are strapping the bombs onto themselves feel justified

lets void 9/11 and al qaeda terrorists for a bloody sec , afterall it is a totally different scenario, where yes, religious context is heavily involved

however, this is not the case in israel, the Palestinians are being slaughtered by intelligent weaponry, and for what ?? trying to protect what they originally had.........imagine seeing your 5yr old cousin shot in the head from an israeli soldier, or your house being torn down, because they jews are reclaiming land with force

of course you would strap a bomb on and seek revenge,

what is the saying, an eye for an eye..................

 

[recoil]

"And the situation in Palestine is not so desperate that it warrants killing innocent Israeli civilians"

obviously the killing of civilians is wrong. that goes withut saying. but i am curious. what is your source? how do you know what the condition in Palestine is like? from CNN?

"especially when it can be argued that the main reason for the plight of the average Palestinian is not Israel, but rather Arafat's ineffectiveness as a leader"

this is just blind propoganda

i was just looking up some stuff up on the invasion of Lebanon by Israeli Defense Forces in 1982. if you are interested, check these links to learn about the Shatila massacre: how the Israeli Military helped facilitate the slaughter of over 2000 men women and children in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, September, 1982.

the first hand accounts of eyewitnesses are pretty graphic and shocking.

http://www.indictsharon.net/

after you read this it is even more shocking that one of the men indirectly responsible for the massacre is now the leader of the country.

here's another link for anyone who might be interested:

http://www.infotrad.clara.co.uk/antiwar/fatefultri.html

peace

 

[ADT]

Im not getting in this again with you Wunderbar because your stance is deliberately biased, and your style of argument is cheap, and offensive...

all i have to say is that

i see more injustice in the deliberate enslavement, and oppression of the palestinian people by the consensus of almost all of Israel then I do in a few violent acts by the consensus of a few individual palestinians..

even so, the body count is still 2:1 for the israelis.. so cry me a river

 

[ADT]

Originally posted by Wunderbar

And the situation in Palestine is not so desperate that it warrants killing innocent Israeli civilians

lol.. get a clue.. i would rather die than let a group of people oppress my children ON MY SOIL

 

[Rosey]

you know what is really disturbing about this whole thread? it hit be last night. calling suicide bombers 'the lowest form of humanity', effectively allows you to write them off in your mind as less-than-human or non-human which is exactly what the nazi's did to the jews (and the americans did to the vietnemese).

once a group reaches the conclusion that on a moral level, their enemies are not human, then they will soon lose any restrictions on their behaviour with regard to the humane treatment of that enemy.

are they humans? or just vermin to be eleminated? goes for both sides.

 

[Wunderbar]

Originally posted by ADT
i see more injustice in the deliberate enslavement, and oppression of the palestinian people by the consensus of almost all of Israel then I do in a few violent acts by the consensus of a few individual palestinians..

(1) The Israelis enslaving and oppressing the palestinian people? How so? Give me examples. This is news to me and I've followed the siutation carefully for the last 8-9 years.

(2) Even Yasser Arafat, the leader of the PLO, condemns suicide bombings, as being completely detrimental to the peace process


People have alluded to my bias. I am biased in favour of a system of democracy, freedom, and the rule of law. I am biased in favour of being able to walk the streets in peace, not even thinking about the possibility of a suicide bomber. In my examples of religious-based terror I included a Christian, a Jew, a Moslem and a Buddhist. Religion can blind reason and there is NEVER, EVER an excuse to use religion to justify the killing of innocents.
Whether it's a pro-lifer shooting an abortion doctor or the extremist Sikhs slaughtering Hindus, it's murder and there's no tolerance in any organized society for murder.

ADT, when the Passover suicide bombing took place I noticed you were pretty quiet. Why is that? When the Israeli soldiers abbhorently stopped an ambulance with a wounded Palestinian you were all over it. But when 19 die and a hundred are injured in a blast as they were eating dinner, you have nothing to say on the issue.

And the people who are blowing themselves up in Israel now are lured by the religious rewards that they will reap in 'another life'. While the land conflict is obviously a factor, it's the Islamic fundamentalism that translates discontent with the situation into using violence to send a message about the situation. There are many moderate, reasonable notable Palestinians who want to negoitate a peaceful settlement and it's sad that their voices are muffled by the sounds of deplorable organizations who advocate the murder of civilians as a solution to the situation.

 

[Zenmaster Chi]

How to convince people that bombing is legitimate...

Respect for and implementation of human rights in occupied territories



General Assembly resolution 2443 (XXIII) of 19 December 1968






The General Assembly,


Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and by the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights,


Bearing in mind the provisions of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian
Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949,(1)


Mindful of the principle embodied in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights regarding the right
of everyone to return to his own country, and recalling Security Council resolution 237 (1967) of 14
June 1967, General Assembly resolutions 2252 (ES-V) of 4 July 1967 and 2341 B (XXII) of 19
December 1967, Commission on Human Rights resolution 6 (XXIV) of 27 February 1968 (2) and
Economic and Social Council resolution 1336 (XLIV) of 31 May 1968, in which those United
Nations organs called upon the Government of Israel, inter alia, to facilitate the return of those
inhabitants who have fled the area of military operations since the outbreak of hostilities,


Recalling the telegram dispatched by the Commission on Human Rights on 8 March 1968, calling
upon the Government of Israel to desist forthwith from acts of destroying homes of the Arab civilian
population in areas occupied in Israel,(3)


Recalling also Security Council resolution 259 (1968) of 27 September 1968, in which the Council
expressed its concern for the safety, welfare and security of the inhabitants of the Arab territories
under military occupation by Israel, and deplored the delay in the implementation of Council
resolution 237 (1967),


Noting resolution I on respect for and implementation of human rights in occupied territories,
adopted by the International Conference on Human Rights on 7 May 1968,(4) in which the
Conference, inter alia:


(a) Expressed its grave concern at the violation of human rights in Arab territories occupied by
Israel,


(b) Drew the attention of the Government of Israel to the grave consequences resulting from the
disregard of fundamental freedoms and human rights in occupied territories,


(c) Called upon the Government of Israel to desist forthwith from acts of destroying homes of the
Arab civilian population inhabiting areas occupied by Israel and to respect and implement the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949(5) in
occupied territories,


(d) Affirmed the inalienable rights of all inhabitants who have left their homes as a result of the
outbreak of hostilities in the Middle East to return home, resume their normal life, recover their
property and homes, and rejoin their families according to the provisions of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights,


1. Decides to establish a Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices Affecting the Human
Rights of the Population of the Occupied Territories, composed of three Member States;


2. Requests the President of the General Assembly to appoint the members of the Special
Committee;


3. Requests the Government of Israel to receive the Special Committee, co-operate with it and
facilitate its work;


4. Requests the Special Committee to report to the Secretary-General as soon as possible and
whenever the need arises thereafter;


5. Requests the Secretary-General to provide the Special Committee with all the necessary facilities
for the performance of its task.



1748th plenary meeting,

19 December 1968



1. United Nations, Treaty Series, vol. 75 (1950), No. 973.

2. See Official Records of the Economic and Social Council, Forty-fourth Session, Supplement No.
4 (E/4475), chapter XVIII.

3. Ibid., para. 400.

4. See Final Act of the International Conference on Human Rights (United Nations publications,
Sales No.: E.68.XIV.2), p.5.

5. United Nations, Treaty Series, vol. 75 (1950), Nos. 970-973.


Read this link as well:
http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/AllSymbols/BAA87006CC10F931802568B300380FD9/$File/a54r079.pdf?OpenElement

*it's a pdf but worth the read*

Got some more coming up...

It's REALLY important to actually read pertinent international documentation before spouting off opinions regarding who is right and who is wrong.

If people read relevant UN reports, they'd realize that the international community has already formed a general consensus on the Israel/Palestine relationship.

 

[Zenmaster Chi]

Some more important stuff

It would be really good if everyone went to the following link. I wanted to post more pertinent documents but they're just too damn big. Give the documents a good read...it'll illustrate the realities of the situation.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/7/a/moatsc.htm

This link will take you to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights page for the "Special Committee to Investigate Israeli Practices affecting the Human Rights of the Palestinian People and Other Arabs of the Occupied Territories"

This page outlines the UN's position on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It outlines actions taken by both nations and the result of said actions.

It's good to read it before shooting off too many aggressive opinions.

By reading the documents at the UNHCR site, it becomes pretty clear WHY the situation is as it is.

Happy reading...

 

[Wunderbar]

Zenmaster, thanks for the link and when my workload eases I will plow through those documents.

Looking at this history of the conflict one thing is clear: nobody is perfectly free from blame. Both sides have made some bad decisions which have exacerbated the siutation. The history is long and involved and I don't have the time to get into it.

I did not intend to turn this thread into another Israel/palestine land debate. My focus was on religious motivated terrorism and how dangerous and deplorable these organizations that support it are, because they do not respect "this world". They are convinced that there is somthing better waiting for them and that by taking many people with them, their rewards will be multiplied.

I don't know about you, but I'm not banking on an after-life and I want to make sure I live a full, long life in this world. This is a foundation of a free society. s.7 of our Constitution defines our inalienable right to life, liberty and the security of the person.

There is never ANY excuse for the death of innocent civilians whether they are Palestinian, Israeli, Canadian, American, Christian, Moslem, Jewish, doctors, laywers, janitors, teachers, white, black, or brown. Violence is never the answer.

Peace.