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SOCAN want to tax ISPs

kuba

TRIBE Member
Top court hears pitch for tariff on web use
Last Updated Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:37:20
OTTAWA - Internet users will have to pay more for access if Canada's music composers and publishers convince the Supreme Court of Canada to add a tariff on web use.




The Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada (SOCAN) is in court on Wednesday arguing that internet providers should hand over millions of dollars toward royalties for pirated music.

The tariff would be essentially a tax of up to 10 per cent on the ISPs' annual revenues.

The ISPs say they shouldn't be held responsible for what users post on their websites.

"We're simply the pipe between them and our subscribers," said Jay Kerr-Wilson, a lawyer with the Canadian Cable Television Association.

Statistics Canada says ISPs reported revenues of more than $1.25 billion in 2001.

A new tariff would be passed on to the customers, the industry says.

SOCAN collected and distributed more than $120 million in royalties from sales of blank CDs, DVDs and cassettes, and annual fees from bars, restaurants, broadcasters and other places where music is used.

If the Supreme Court agrees to impose the new tariff, the legal precedent could open the door for other associations to lobby for similar payments for software, photographs and works of literature that have been put on the web.

SOCAN is also asking the court to decide if ISPs can be held accountable for web content hosted in other countries but accessed by Canadians. A consortium of ISPs from Australia, Europe and the United States are attending the hearing.
 

Silvershadow

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by qtip
The ISPs say they shouldn't be held responsible for what users post on their websites.
And they shouldn't! Phone companies can't be held accountable if people use the phone for illegal purposes, so it's the same thing!
A new tariff would be passed on to the customers, the industry says.
That's not fair for people who don't download music... granted, they're rare, but there ARE some. Seriously, it's not good enough that they already get a large chunk of money from blank CD/tape sales, even if you DON'T use them for music purposes???
SOCAN is also asking the court to decide if ISPs can be held accountable for web content hosted in other countries but accessed by Canadians.
Well, they damn well better not! It's the SOCAN, as in CANADIAN! If the sites are in other countries, then the SOCAN shouldn't be able to touch them.
 

Hi i'm God

TRIBE Member
Re: Re: SOCAN want to tax ISPs

Originally posted by Silvershadow
And they shouldn't! Phone companies can't be held accountable if people use the phone for illegal purposes, so it's the same thing!
That's not fair for people who don't download music... granted, they're rare, but there ARE some. Seriously, it's not good enough that they already get a large chunk of money from blank CD/tape sales, even if you DON'T use them for music purposes???
Well, they damn well better not! It's the SOCAN, as in CANADIAN! If the sites are in other countries, then the SOCAN shouldn't be able to touch them.
they probably just want to be there to see what happens and if if could happen in thier country.
 

Subsonic Chronic

TRIBE Member
I wonder how long until they start with tarrifs on hard drives "because people can keep illegal files on them!!".

I really have a hard time seeing eye-to-eye with the argument that "there is the potential to abuse this medium, so we have to assume that everyone *is* abusing it, and tax them all accordingly".

It's this assumption of guilt that gets to me, combined with the RIAA and friends being able to wield legal power and control government policy.
 

Mike Richards

TRIBE Member
Put me in the ring with one of these clowns!! I can't stand the AVLA or their Big Brother the RIAA. Never really had a problem with SOCAN but now they're getting kinda whiny and need a punch in the face!!
 

Vote Quimby

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Subsonic Chronic
I wonder how long until they start with tarrifs on hard drives "because people can keep illegal files on them!!".

I really have a hard time seeing eye-to-eye with the argument that "there is the potential to abuse this medium, so we have to assume that everyone *is* abusing it, and tax them all accordingly".

It's this assumption of guilt that gets to me, combined with the RIAA and friends being able to wield legal power and control government policy.
Don't forget that SOCAN already gets a tax from the sales of recordable media like Cd's and tapes.
 

Subsonic Chronic

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Vote Quimby
Don't forget that SOCAN already gets a tax from the sales of recordable media like Cd's and tapes.
Yup. I haven't forgotten. That I don't mind *as much* because we have a fair use policy here in Canada that prevents pricks like the RIAA from suing us for Copyright violation.

But on the other hand, it's more of that "assummed guilt" bullshit where the tax is being levied on the assumption that the products are being used for illegal purposes. It's completely contradictory to the 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra of our justice system.
 

Mike Richards

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Subsonic Chronic


But on the other hand, it's more of that "assummed guilt" bullshit where the tax is being levied on the assumption that the products are being used for illegal purposes. It's completely contradictory to the 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra of our justice system.
Thank You!!! Now lets go beat them up!!!
 

why not

TRIBE Member
i think this is fine.

socan is the musician's friend, and i'm a poor indie musician.

if you're not going to pay for your downloads, your ISP should.


it's fucking sad how many talented musicians are giving up because they can't afford to do it anymore.

i know we can't fight downloading, but there has to be a way to get some of this money back into the artist's pocket.
 

Mike Richards

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by why not


i know we can't fight downloading, but there has to be a way to get some of this money back into the artist's pocket.
Right.. but don't start doing whatever you feel like until you've figured out a way that it works!!
 
Originally posted by why not
i think this is fine.

if you're not going to pay for your downloads, your ISP should.

technically, we are paying our ISPs and im sure this will trickle down -- so we ARE going to be paying for our downloads.

but.

so will our neighbours and everyone else that is on your ISP, regardless of whether they download music or not.

my mom pays for internet service and doesn't know jack shit about mp3s... i don't really think it's fair that her ISP costs will go up, if all she does is read online newspapers and email her friends
 

Silvershadow

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Mike Richards
Right.. but don't start doing whatever you feel like until you've figured out a way that it works!!
Exactly... I'm not going to say that I don't download music at home, but I really don't download that much... and I certainly don't download NEARLY as much as some people do... then there's people like my grandmother who don't download ANY. It wouldn't be fair that myself, my grandmother, and some 13-year-old who downloads 40 gigs of music a month should get taxed the same.
 

AdRiaN

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by why not
it's fucking sad how many talented musicians are giving up because they can't afford to do it anymore.
True artists need to be starving ... otherwise they are sell-outs. :p
 

why not

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Silvershadow
Exactly... I'm not going to say that I don't download music at home, but I really don't download that much... and I certainly don't download NEARLY as much as some people do... then there's people like my grandmother who don't download ANY. It wouldn't be fair that myself, my grandmother, and some 13-year-old who downloads 40 gigs of music a month should get taxed the same.
if you don't want the innocent to pay, then stop downloading, or figure out a way that only the guilty will pay.

i personally don't see a way that free downloading will ever be stopped - someone's always going to figure out a way around it. the only other option are things like this that acknowledge it's common and can't be stopped.

i would like to see some tracking on the various P2P programs so that the royalties are distributed according to downloads, instead of assuming that people download in the same stuff that sells well. i see a hell of a lot of independant music in people's shared folders - most of these artists are barely breaking even, regardless of how many good reviews they got.
 

Shug

TRIBE Member
I consciously do not download mp3s or share my legitimate mp3s with others.

Why is someone like me, a supposed consciencious intairwebber, being punished for the transgressions of others? It's like I'm having to pay for other people's parking tickets because I own a car.

Absolutely retarded. The powers that be are just not willing to accept the incoming paradigm shift. They have to change their definitions of ownership and product.

But, it's become increasely clear that the almighty dollar can buy laws, as displayed by the rejection of the 'do not call list' bill, which had a public approval rating of over +90%.

I expect this will go through.
 

why not

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Mike Richards
Right.. but don't start doing whatever you feel like until you've figured out a way that it works!!
suggest a way.

people are cheap, especially regarding creative work. the theory seems to be that artists should be grateful for being able to make art, therefore they don't deserve to make a living off of it.

millionaire musicians are a tiny fraction of a percent of artists - the vast majority are losing money, regardless of talent.

vote with your dollar.
 
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