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sleeper cell?

Discussion in 'Politics (deprecated)' started by judge wopner, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. judge wopner

    judge wopner TRIBE Member

    TORONTO - One of the 19 men with suspected ties to al-Qaeda was ordered released on bail Wednesday after an adjudicator found no concrete evidence against any of the men.

    Al-Qaeda suspect appears on video.
    Adjudicator Aina Martens said she was obliged to release 30-year-old Mohammad Akhtar, who came to Canada from Pakistan in 1999, because of the lack of evidence of wrongdoing.

    "At this point, nothing has ever been proven about anybody arrested," said Martens.

    At least four other men who appeared at public review hearings Wednesday will be held because adjudicators said there is a "reasonable suspicion" they pose a possible threat to national security.

    The Immigration and Refugee Board found that some of the men denied release went by different names, or were in Canada on expired visas or for no specific reason. Several more reviews are expected to take place on Thursday.

    The 19 men – 18 Pakistanis and one from India – were arrested on Aug. 14. New immigration laws allow judges to keep them behind bars while police look for evidence to support their suspicions.

    Muslim community groups are upset by the arrests, saying the men are victims of racial profiling. They argue the evidence and the charges should be produced or the men should be released.

    "At this point, we (the Muslim community) feel that we are under siege," Jehad Al-Iweiwi of the Canadian Muslim Congress told a news conference on Wednesday.

    "These practices are simply placing us outside the… protection of the Canadian laws," said Al-Iweiwi.

    Tariq Shah, the lawyer for five of the men, said there is no reason that any of them should be kept in custody. "


    what i find disturbing, is how someone can be caught using false info to apply for a visa and not be considered in breach of Canadain law, and should not be in their lawyers mind detained.

    they did not mention in this article about the school that many of these guys were claiming to have attended was in fact investigated by the RCMP which apparently led them to these arrests as they were providing fronts for people to immigrate here under false preteneses.

    cbc news last night said a tip came from the Mexican consulate about forged Passports that led to the id of several of these men.

    unconfirmed so far, but these are some other things ive read about this one so far, not sure if they are all solid, but its scary:

    1. many of them were using different names at their school than what was on their student visa application.

    2. many of them were collecting welfare under different names as well (reason enough to deport a student visa recipient non?)

    3. many were claiming to be attending a school in ottowa while living in toronto.

    4. how coicedentally one of them is taking flying lessons and happened to selects the flight path over pickering consistently, while 2 of his roomates were found in the vicinity of the power plant at like 4am one night.

    5. how other people arrested who associate with the above guys also were found with explosive material in their apartments and requests made by some of them for acces to blue prints of the skydome and CN tower.

  2. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    Its actually a bit of a tough one. See although many of these issues are perfectly valid reasons to question them, really none of them are valid enough to detain them for any length of time.

    1. many of them were using different names at their school than what was on their student visa application.

    I've done this for years, my legal name is quite ethnic and fairly long. I have used an alias most of my life, when in a court of law or in a legal circumstance I make certain to always explain this and include both names. Most people do a bad job of pronouncing my name and personally I find that when I use it I get people referring to me using generic terms rather than my name. This has a very negative effect in business as I find that when I use my real name people don't say it in meetings (less they mispronounce it) and thus I don't create name recognition.

    2. many of them were collecting welfare under different names as well (reason enough to deport a student visa recipient non?)

    See this one is bugging the crap out of me. Why can a student visa holder collect welfare in the first place!!! They here to spend money on an education not collect money for education. Last I checked the rules for a student visa were pretty specific about this and about the restrictions on where someone with a student visa can work.

    3. many were claiming to be attending a school in Ottawa while living in Toronto.

    I did this as well (opposite direction) for the sake of insurance prices. Its a scam but many people are of "no fixed address" in that they do not update there information as often as they move. This is especially true for students. Again its probably a good sign that something wrong is happening but its a pretty minor charge!

    4. how coincidentally one of them is taking flying lessons and happened to selects the flight path over Pickering consistently, while 2 of his roommates were found in the vicinity of the power plant at like am one night.

    I've taken flying lessons, have been charged with criminal offenses in past and have also gone to a foreign country where I have received training in firing of small arms. On paper I'd make a fairly good terrorist by these definitions. Then again a flight lesson is about $100 and I'd suggest it to anyone as being the best way to spend $100 under the sun. I'm not unique one of my fathers greatest dreams in the world was to fly a plane, he could barely speak English when him and two of his brother in laws began to build a plane themselves from a kit.

    My parents farm bordered the guelph junction power lines, and a major highway. It could be argued that each and every time my father purchased fertilizer and diesel fuel he was becoming a suspect in terrorism. To make matters worse in the operation of the farm we used restricted chemicals that are pesticides and could be used in a crude chemical weapon (similar to the Tokyo subway attack). To add even more to the argument my father didn't use his legal name either. Traditionally people who have classic roman names do not use there roman names outside of religious circles we all use a common name. Muslims also follow this tradition and thus why it appears that they all have like 3 names.

    5. how other people arrested who associate with the above guys also were found with explosive material in their apartments and requests made by some of them for access to blue prints of the skydome and CN tower.

    Adding them up it looks really bad for these guys I agree!!! (at least the allegations do!!) but I have applied cryptography sitting on my desk at work and I have the blue prints to part of the Toronto subway system at home. I have access to fertilizer and have even owned a copy of the Anarchists Cookbook in past. I have a history of computer hacking and have been investigated by the RCMP in past with relations to this. By these same definitions they should be banging down my door, to make it even worse I have had a passport and citizenship revoked!!

    By these same definitions I'm guilty of every single thing that these guys are guilty of (with the exception of welfare fraud but I went down on tax evasion which isn't all that different).

    So the question has to be asked. Why are these men behind bars and why am I a free man. Is the law different for each of us, NOPE! is enforcement different? YES.
  3. OTIS

    OTIS TRIBE Member

    " 18 Pakistanis and one from India "

    Unless they found this group with the 18 Pakistanis beatin down on the one Indian, I say this is proof right there that they had ulterior motives! ;)

    But on a serious note, I think any immigration law in effect now should be more strictly enforcedy. Canada has a world reputation for being lenient on immigration compared to the US, and stories like this don't help matters much when it's revealed that these guys were in the very least scamming the system.

    I knew many people who lived in other countries, but stayed here long enough to get the status that allows them to be eligable for UI, Welfare, and all the rest. They would come to Canada periodically and collect, then fly back. There has to be way more background checking done IMO.
  4. judge wopner

    judge wopner TRIBE Member

    nice breakdown.

    true i guess anything can be excused away non?

    at what point do you look at someone or a group of people and say,

    1, you applied with fake names on your student visas, not short names, not alterations or nick names... but totally different names on what RCMP believe were stolen passports.

    this presumed ignorance of ethnicity by canadians is a terrible and rascist argument. i dont care if youre name has 57 letters, all consanats, if youre filling out an official goverment aplication , fill it out correctly and mabey tell them your short name when they wish to address you further.

    to avoid problems such as this, accept these names were fake.

    right away i think they have the right to revoke your visa as it was granted under false pretense. non? or is coming to canada with a false identity not enough cause to boot them out now a days?

    2. once in canada you did not attend the school you claimed, you come here claiming to go to school, and you ditch it while lying to the goverment and say youre still going.

    bullshit, you should be out on those grounds.

    student visa's are one of the most abused aspects of the immigration system, every year many kids who have applied disappear never reporting that they have returned to their homeland once the visa's expired.


    and yeah there is a fine line between presumption of guilt and evidence when all the ducks line up.

    you could be standing over a dead body with a smoking gun in hand and say you just left a shooting range and happen to walk past a man who happened to have just been shot in the face. at some point enough discrpencies should mean you be detained and held until such suspicion is ironed out non?
  5. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    My uncle in Holland has a neat job. He is a government inspector. When you call in sick, he may or may not visit you at home. If your not at home you must provide a location where you can be found (ie doctors office or where you are staying) else you don't get paid for your sick day.

    Would we be willing to do the same in Canada. Would we be willing to say that to collect EI or Welfare or to stay in Canada without landed status or citizenship your up for random inspections.

    We are far more lax than most countries, we're also trying to almost double the number of imigrants comming to our country to try and keep the demographics on the nice side of declining (naturally we do not have anywhere near enough children).

    Are we willing to accept the enforcement of these laws?
  6. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    Yah I do think so!

    Personally I think the suspession around these guys is right on the nuckle. I'm actually impressed at how well informed "we" seem to have been with regards to this. I'm somewhat glad that they are going to be investigating this furthur. I think there are a good 3000 people in new york who wished there government had done the same thing.

    But somewhere here I get a little more uncomfortable!! If we're going down this path I worry that it becomes harder and harder to justify what is a potential terrorist and what is a guy like my father. My dad sponsored somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 refugee families from Laos and the Philopeans. He would provide housing and or employment while they learnt english.

    With the history I outlined above more and more his involvement with religion, with foriegn refugee claiments (who had close ties to his farm and lived in his homes!!) and ability to provide explosives and chemical agents would have put him in jail. It doesn't add up!!! Unless you realize that the chemicals were used to kill bugs in barns, the diesel powered the generator and tractors, and the refugees were part of opur family history. In WWII we hid jewish people in our factory, during the indoneasian war we helped people escape from a horrible gorilla war. Its part and parcel with a history of devotion ...

    But without a very understanding context I would have arrested my father. And it wouldn't have been hard to deport him, he lied on his imigration paper work as well!!!!
  7. KickIT

    KickIT TRIBE Member

    I wish they would've done us all a favour and blown up the SkyDome.

  8. silver1

    silver1 TRIBE Member

    The owners were probably praying for that too. The insurance money collected would have been sick.
  9. KickIT

    KickIT TRIBE Member

    Doesn't the City of Toronto have part ownership in the Dome? I'm pretty sure tax payers are still paying out the duckets for that eye sore.

  10. OTIS

    OTIS TRIBE Member

    There's a reason why they are laws in the first place, there are other laws much more deserving of non-enforcement that immigration laws. And with a story as high profile as this one has been on the world stage, it doesn't do much to dispel Canada's reputaion for being a social shelter for illeagals. I'm not saying that we should create stricter laws, just strictly enforce the ones we have.

    On a second note, I didn't realize that we keep loose borders to keep our population up. Is this really the 'unofficial' reason? If so, where have you read this? And doesn't it seem like an inefficient way to encourage population growth, shouldn't we be creating incentives for our citizens to procreate rather than creating incentives for foreigners to immigrate?
  11. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    Actually or lax borders generally cause a bigger problem for the USA. We tend to be a transit point, people can get here easily than disappear and sneak into the USA where they have established family but couldn't immigrate to directly due to political reasons.

    There was actually talk a couple of years ago about extending maternity leave to almost 18 months from the 3 months as it stands now. Additionally we are increasing funding to day cares more than at any time in history. More than likely over the next ten years your going to notice more and more benifits designed around raising children and around mortgages on homes and educational credits and tax breaks. I would also expect that you'll see a change in how doctors gain acredation in Canada when moving here from a devloping country.

    I don't know how official or unofficial it is.
  12. OTIS

    OTIS TRIBE Member

    Yea cuz as of right now, I effin never want to have kids.
    So I can understand the reluctance from our generation to do so.
  13. judge wopner

    judge wopner TRIBE Member

    immigration is not to keep the population up.

    immigrations specific intent is to bring workers in the country who have something to contribute to the labour pool.

    refugees are brought in as part of human rights that says we should help those who face persecution in their native land.

    immigration since WW2 has shifted from the economic basis for immigration to a more greyish refugee policy.
    back in the day a worker came on his own, when he made enough money could bring his family over.

    now an entire family can come over at once as long as they are sponsored by a resident family. even if that resident family is on welfare and the familiy coming in wil be shortly applying for welfare.

    these changes have been in place for a short while but were done out of a reiterpretaion of immigration law that says its not fair to bring people in only on the basis of economic needs of the nation.....
  14. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    the birth control pill litterally changed our society as much as the automobile did!! By now you would have already been a father!

    But our society hasn't yet figured out how to deal with this, neither has western europe!! Italy for instance is in a steep population decline, men simply aren't getting married and are living at home into there 40's. There government is litterally building an education campaign to get men to leave there parents home. They actually struck down a law that had made having sex in a car illegal based on the fact that so many men lived with there parents and were in there 40's and the only place they could have sex was in a car.

    Personally I love children, but I don't plan to have any! Its going to be hard to convince me otherwise unless I'm placed in the circumstance unprepared (knocking on all the wood around me please lord don't let me find out I'm a dad!!!)
  15. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    I don't know if I would be so firm in this belief. I think what your saying is fairly accurate but I would argue that they are hoping to get a replacement rate of about 2.1 versus or natural rate which is somewhere around 1.8 (note a 2 represents a balanced equal replacement rate). By selecting those with skills necessay in the economy you get the double bonus of them more than likely being prosporous and of providing a resource for your industry.

    Right now we are in a slight economic decline (not a recession by any means) yet we are still increasing our imigration attempts.

    Here as an abstract I snagged from


  16. OTIS

    OTIS TRIBE Member

    Hahaha that's funny because I'm of Italian descent, and it's almost taboo to leave the house unless you've put a ring on a girl's finger, so when I left at 23, despite having liberal parents (as far as Italian immigrants go) I still got the eye of death for going against the grain. But part of it is that i've always gone against the ethnic grain, so they expected it. My brothers wouldn't have gotten away with it tho. Every one of my single male cousins are still living at home, some are over 30 for god sakes!!! :eek: That was so not for me.
  17. Ditto Much

    Ditto Much TRIBE Member

    I was lucky with that one. Dutch tradition kicks your ass out at 18 when they ship you off to the military and your expected to never come home again. My parents converted my bedroom into a guest room within a month of me leaving (all be it they kept all 4 of my sisters rooms exactly the same untill well after they were all married and had kids!!!)

    I'm realizing more and more that my parents didn't much like me!!!

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