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shooting at Connecticut elementary school

acheron

TRIBE Member
can you even imagine the challenge of asking americans to give up their guns in some kind of buyback-amnesty-surrender process?

there are plenty of folk who have incredible stockpiles of weapons who would be VERY reluctant to give them up without a fight.
 
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Spinsah

TRIBE Member
After the Port Arthur Massacre in Australia gun control became the hot political issue, and after a buy back program was instituted, 650,000 guns were destroyed. Since then, with tightening rules, all the stats suggest an unqualified success.

Check it:

[H]omicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
can you even imagine the challenge of asking americans to give up their guns in some kind of buyback-amnesty-surrender process?

there are plenty of folk who have incredible stockpiles of weapons who would be VERY reluctant to give them up without a fight.

It would be like tea party x1000000000
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
After the Port Arthur Massacre in Australia gun control became the hot political issue, and after a buy back program was instituted, 650,000 guns were destroyed. Since then, with tightening rules, all the stats suggest an unqualified success.

Check it:

I am aware of that, but gun ownership wasn't one of Australia's key founding principles. In America's case , gun ownership is enshrined in their founding documents and it also a key psychological-historical piece in the American mind - that of breaking away from colonization and securing one's own 'freedom', at gunpoint if necessary.
 
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alexd

Administrator
Staff member
can you even imagine the challenge of asking americans to give up their guns in some kind of buyback-amnesty-surrender process?

I was just thinking... This might be a great way to kickstart the US economy! By putting cash into the hands of the masses and pushing the liability into the future by dramatically increasing the national debt, they get the cash flowing now yet make future generations so poor they won't be able to afford buying any of the high end expensive guns.
 

acheron

TRIBE Member
After the Port Arthur Massacre in Australia gun control became the hot political issue, and after a buy back program was instituted, 650,000 guns were destroyed. Since then, with tightening rules, all the stats suggest an unqualified success.

Check it:

highly likely that most of those guns were for hunting. in the US, however, the larger portion of guns could conservatively be described as either for protection or recreation. The recreation ones would be a tough enough sell to get back but the protection ones... yeesh. Disarmament would have to be a very careful process, and gun possession would need to carry a VERY high penalty to discourage criminals from even using them. The way the US is set up now, with States setting their own laws, the Fed would have to more or less over rule all of them (very difficult to get through congress)... If this is the road we are indeed on, toward disarming the US citizenry, then it will be a long one and a painful one.
 

kmsmith

TRIBE Member
So, essentially, the solution the NRA proposes to this problem is to have more guns, and more people with guns. Makes perfect sense to me.

Further, I am trying to lose weight and McDonalds feels that the best solution would be to eat more Big Mac's.
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
Even in Canada, assuming Canada is some kind of example, mental health care is pretty poor.

It's certainly given the lowest priority in hospital triage. Unless you show up with a cop and handcuffs, which incidentally is the fastest way to get service in a Canadian hospital, you can be quite sure that you will wait 8, 10, 12 hours just to talk to someone. Talk for two minutes or less. Thank you for your time.

Mental Health is an issue that's not physically obvious, perhaps that's why it's ignored, or shunned, generally. So if these matters are handled so poorly in Canada, well, we can just imagine that they are not handled at all in the good ol' USA.

I feel it's fairly obvious, despite media attention, that the problem is not guns. Though yes I question why anyone would need a military assault rifle, the greater question is why anyone would feel the need to kill their mother, then a bunch of children and other random strangers, then themselves.

This is so clearly not a gun issue but a mental health issue. It pains me to side on the NRA here, but, like the beheading on the greyhound bus, like Luka Magnotta, like the dude in Norway, these all stem to unhandled mental health issues.

-jM
A&D
 

tripleup

TRIBE Member
Hospital triage, and the now entrenched mindset of emergency staff that you shouldn't be there, has lead to a significant drop in the quality of healthcare in this country.

They are so quick to dismiss your illness as a basic one and send you home, rather than actually diagnose whats potentially killing you, that you end up going back in much worse shape and/or near death before anything gets done.

/end personal rant
 
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The Americans are completely nuts.

NRA calls for armed guards in every U.S. school
WASHINGTON — Associated Press and Reuters

The nation's largest gun-rights lobby is calling for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer “waiting in the wings.“

The National Rifle Association broke its silence Friday on last week's shooting rampage at a Connecticut elementary school that left 26 children and staff dead.

The group's top lobbyist, Wayne LaPierre, said at a Washington news conference that, “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

He blamed video games, movies and music videos for exposing children to a violent culture day in and day out.

“In a race to the bottom, many conglomerates compete with one another to shock, violate, and offend every standard of civilized society, by bringing an even more toxic mix of reckless behavior and criminal cruelty right into our homes,” Mr. LaPierre said.

His remarks - in which he also charged that the news media shared blame for the second-deadliest school shooting in U.S. history - were twice interrupted by protesters who unfurled signs and shouted “stop the killing.”

Mr. LaPierre urged lawmakers to station armed police officers in all schools by the time students return from the Christmas break in January. Mr. LaPierre did not take questions from reporters.

Earlier on Friday, church bells rang out in tree-lined suburban Newtown and up and down the East Coast at 9:30 a.m. EST (1430 GMT) in memory of the victims of the attack on Dec. 14 in which 28 people, including the gunman, were killed.

Mr. LaPierre’s comments came at the end of a week when President Barack Obama commissioned a new White House task force to find a way to quell violence, a challenge in a nation with a strong culture of individual gun ownership.

“We have to have a comprehensive way in which to respond to the mass murder of our children that we saw in Connecticut,” Vice President Joe Biden, who heads the task force, said on Thursday.

The U.S. Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms and hundreds of millions of weapons are in private hands.

About 11,100 Americans died in gun-related killings in 2011, not including suicides, according to preliminary data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Some U.S. lawmakers called for swift passage of an assault weapons ban.

Some Newtown residents have already launched an effort aimed at tightening rules on gun ownership.

What I feel is a sense of guilt because I’ve been a strong advocate of gun control for years,” said John Dewees, 61, who was in downtown Newtown, where a makeshift memorial rose several feet around two Christmas trees with teddy bears and flower bouquets. “I wish I’d been more vocal. You wonder, had we all been, could we have averted this?”

The attack, which killed 20 first graders ages 6 and 7, shattered the illusion of safety in this close-knit town of 27,000 people where many residents knew someone affected by the attacks.

“There’s just so many connections,” said Jay Petrusaitis, whose son was in the same high school class as the gunman.

Churches as far south as Florida and at the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C., rang their bells.

Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy had called for residents of his state to observe the moment of silence to mark a week since a 20-year-old gunman killed his mother and then stormed Sandy Hook Elementary School. He killed a total of 28 people that day, including six school teachers and staff in a rampage that ended when he turned his gun on himself.

Governors in Maine, Illinois, Michigan and several other states also called for moments of silence.

The gunman, Adam Lanza, used a military-style assault rifle and police said he carried hundreds of bullets in high-capacity magazines, as well as two handguns. The weapons were legally purchased and registered to his mother, Nancy, his first victim.

Story here:
NRA calls for armed guards in every U.S. school - The Globe and Mail

It just proves how hopelessly out of touch the NRA is. Video games are the new whipping boy for what's wrong with society just as violent movies were before, and gangsta rap was before it, and heavy metal was before and comic books before it , etc. etc. He actually quoted video games like Mortal Kombat and Splatterhouse as being his examples of the "violent video games" what kind of google search did he do to dig up 20 plus year old video games for this kind of shit?

But then again, what else are they going to say? That assault weapons and military grade weapondry shouldn't be in the hands of civilians, despite that the argument makes complete sense? They'd lose the support of all the firearm companies around the world.

It's a bullshit move in their speech, compounded by how cowardly they're being by avoiding and refusing any further comment. Wayne LaPierre knows he's going to have to eat a shit sandwich, and right now he's trying to cleanse his pallet before taking the first bite.

Also, I find it ironic that he considers himself a patriot and likes to announce himself as one, when he's wiping his ass on the first amendment repeatedly.
 

Boss Hog

TRIBE Member
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Wayne LaPierre is on Meet the Press right now, saying that feeling safe is factual evidence that there will be less shootings in the U.S.

Yeah, tell that to the corpses, numbnuts.
 
lolzini - Israel basically says "don't drag us into your nuttier than squirrel shit argument NRA, and research our policies before mentioning us."

Israel rejects NRA claim that Jewish state proves U.S. needs more guns - thestar.com

Israel rejects NRA claim that Jewish state proves U.S. needs more guns
Published on Tuesday December 25, 2012
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HANDOUT/REUTER "Israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing: They said, 'We're going to stop it,' and they put armed security in every school and they have not had a problem since then," Wayne LaPierre said on the NBC News show Meet the Press.
Amy Teibel
The Associated Press
7 Comments

JERUSALEM—Israel’s policy on issuing guns is restrictive, and armed guards at its schools are meant to stop terrorists, not crazed or disgruntled gunmen, experts said Monday, rejecting claims by America’s top gun lobby that Israel serves as proof for its philosophy that the U.S. needs more weapons, not fewer.

• RELATED:NRA defends call for armed guards in schools

Far from the image of a heavily armed population where ordinary people have their own arsenals to repel attackers, Israel allows its people to acquire firearms only if they can prove their professions or places of residence put them in danger. The country relies on its security services, not armed citizens, to prevent terror attacks.

Though military service in Israel is compulsory, routine familiarity with weapons does not carry over into civilian life. Israel has far fewer private weapons per capita than the U.S., and while there have been gangster shootouts on the streets from time to time, gun rampages outside the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are unheard of.

The National Rifle Association responded to the Dec. 14 killing of 20 first-graders and six adults at a Connecticut elementary school by resisting calls for tighter gun control and calling for armed guards and police at schools. On Sunday, the lobby’s chief executive, Wayne LaPierre, invoked his perception of the Israeli school security system to back his proposal.

• RELATED:Wayne LaPierre’s most controversial NRA speech quotes

“Israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing: They said, ‘We’re going to stop it,’ and they put armed security in every school and they have not had a problem since then,” LaPierre said on the NBC News show “Meet the Press.”

Israel never had “a whole lot of school shootings.” Authorities could only recall two in the past four decades.

In 1974, 22 children and three adults were killed in a Palestinian attack on an elementary school in Maalot, near the border with Lebanon. The attackers’ goal was to take the children hostage and trade them for imprisoned militants.

In 2008, another Palestinian assailant killed eight young people, most of them teens, at a nighttime study session at a Jewish religious seminary in Jerusalem. An off-duty soldier who happened to be in the area killed the attacker with his personal firearm.

Israel didn’t mandate armed guards at the entrances to all schools until 1995, the Education Ministry said — more than two decades after the Maalot attack and two years after a Palestinian militant wounded five pupils and their principal in a knifing at a Jerusalem school.

Israel’s lightly armed school guards are not the first or the last line of defence. They are backed up by special police forces on motorcycles that can be on the scene within minutes — again bringing out the main, but not the only, difference between the two systems.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor spelled it out.

“We’re fighting terrorism, which comes under very specific geopolitical and military circumstances. This is not something that compares with the situation in the U.S,” Palmor said.

Because it is aimed at preventing terror attacks, Israel’s school security system is part of a multi-layered defence strategy that focuses on prevention and doesn’t depend on a guy at a gate with a gun.

Intelligence gathering inside Palestinian territories, a large military force inside the West Bank and a barrier of towering concrete slabs and electronic fencing along and inside the West Bank provide the first line of defence.

Guards are stationed not just at schools, but at many other public facilities, including bus and train stations, parking lots, malls and restaurants.

“There are other measures of prevention of an attack taking place, which are carried out 24 hours a day, seven days a week, all over the country,” police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said. Many are not for public knowledge.

Gun lobbyists who might think Israel hands out guns freely to keep its citizens safe might be less enamoured of Israel’s actual gun laws, which are much stricter than those in the U.S. For one thing, notes Yakov Amit, head of the firearms licensing department at the Ministry of Public Security, Israeli law does not guarantee the right to bear arms as the U.S. Constitution does.

“The policy in Israel is restrictive,” he said.

Gun licensing to private citizens is limited largely to people who are deemed to need a firearm because they work or live in dangerous areas, Amit said. West Bank settlers, for instance, can apply for weapons licenses, as can residents of communities on the borders with Lebanon and the Gaza Strip. Licensing requires multiple levels of screening, and permits must be renewed every three years. Renewal is not automatic.

The policy is designed “to strike a balance between needs and risks,” Amit said. “We know that weapons are a dangerous thing, and in the hands of someone who isn’t trained or isn’t reliable, it causes problems.”

The gap between Israeli gun ownership and U.S. gun ownership is consequently staggering. A total of 170,000 guns are licensed for private use in Israel, or about one gun for every 30 adults.

In addition to the privately held weapons, 130,000 guns are licensed to Israeli security companies, firing ranges, government ministries and companies that operate in areas deemed dangerous. Soldiers who carry assault rifles off base during their regular or reserves service turn them in when they complete their tours of duty.

By contrast, U.S. authorities estimate that at least one-third of all American households have firearms — and in many cases, not only one.

Americans are also much freer to choose what type of guns they buy. Automatic weapons of the type Lanza used to gun down his victims are banned for private ownership in Israel. It is also rare for a person to be authorized to own more than one firearm, Amit said.

Eighty per cent of the 10,000 people who apply yearly for licenses are turned down, he said. In the U.S., people can purchase firearms from private dealers without a background check or a license of any kind.

In Israel, applicants must undergo police screening and medical exams, in part to determine their mental state, Amit said.

Many Israelis receive weapons training in the military. But to be licensed to receive a weapon outside the military, they must undergo at least two hours of additional training, then repeat the training and medical exams every three years before they can renew their licenses.

Anybody who possesses a legally acquired gun waives the right to confidentiality, and authorities cross-reference for new information about the gunholder every three months.

“The point is not to complicate, but to make sure the system makes things safer,” Amit said.
 
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kuba

TRIBE Member
So today I meet with a client and we get talking about this issue - and he pulls out his iphone and shows me his arsenal. AK47, M16, 1938 Russian Sniper rifle, Glock, another mid 40s russian pistol, a super-spec Cdn Armed forces sniper rifle, etc etc. All legit, all kept in a vault, all obviously used for just shooting competitions. Says to me the biggest difference between US gun owners and Canadian gun owners is we feel this is a priviledge, and the community is very tight so they don't want any fuckups from anyone, to make things harder to get more guns.

Pretty sobering. Guy has 2 kids too, but just seems like it's "different" here. That said he also told me there are a LOT more guns hiding in people's homes than we think or know about.

Just an interesting anecdote.
 

derek

TRIBE Member
^^^

that's my experience as well. i shoot (i don't have an arsenal like above) and my gun is locked in a vault with trigger lock (i also remove the firing pin) and the ammo secured separately in a secret spot. this way if someone breaks in they don't have easy access to both. this is the case for all my shooting partners. we often joke that if someone ever broke into our homes it would take us longer to unlock, assemble and load the gun than it would for us to be robbed blind. also in canada, to the disbelief of some, you do not have the right to arbitrarily shoot an intruder, it's considered excessive force (unless your life is in immediate danger). keeping a loaded weapon in the home is just stupid.

we have a different mentality all together as you note in that it is a privilege not a right to own a gun.

a few of the guns you client listed though are prohibited and the only way he could own them is if he had them prior to them becoming prohibited (grandfather clause) or he's military, and even then it's only JTF2 and special operators that would be allowed. for example i'll never be able to purchase and ak47 or m16 (at least not automatic).
 

kuba

TRIBE Member
He did say the ak was modified to be semi auto t full auto. And also he did get it grandfathered. Said last month a home intruder was shot by a Serbian in Mississauga who he knew, and initially got arrested but then charges dropped. Also told me a story of when he went shooting and loaded up the car did not make it to the highway as cops pulled him over ( a whole team of them ). His neighbour did not know he was into guns so when he saw the armada load up he shat himself and called 911!
 

ndrwrld

TRIBE Member
altho i do think some of them conspiracy nuts are nutty, they do bring up some very real questions which have yet to be explained.
 

Blysspluss

TRIBE Member
That said he also told me there are a LOT more guns hiding in people's homes than we think or know about.

Yup. Registry and licensing blah blah...not everyone pays attention to it.

I can't say I blame em, given how the long gun registry was mismanaged.

That said, if I should ever inherit some guns from a relative or something like that...I hope it isn't too hard to declare them and do things on the up and up.
 
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I_bRAD

TRIBE Member
You don't have to declare them. Just get your possession and acquisition license and nobody needs to know how many or what you've got.
 

technowelt

TRIBE Member
Restricted firearms (all handguns and some long guns that have been specifically designated) still need to be registered.
 

acheron

TRIBE Member
oh for the days Pre-911 when Anderson Cooper was merely the slightly oddball host of reality game show "The Mole"
 
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