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Paris shooting massacre 2015

praktik

TRIBE Member
Ok Praktik,

I'm kind of disappointed that after all this time, ie. one month, you have not taken the time yourself to read the Koran. Y

So when did you figure out your interpretation of Islam was the only correct one?

By what authority can you claim that only yours is true, and that when muslims post interpretations of Islam that are peaceful, THEY are wrong and YOU are right?

When did you become a fundamentalist muslim?
 
Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

praktik

TRIBE Member
And after the deposit of Jeffsus vitriol and poison, back to your regularly scheduled commentary on Paris.

THis was an excellent exploration of satire in the context of the attacks (wow kind of nice being a on a new page!):

The Limits of Satire by Tim Parks | NYRblog | The New York Review of Books

What does satire do? What should we expect of it? Recent events in Paris inevitably prompt these questions. In particular, is the kind of satire that Charlie Hebdo has made its trademark—explicit, sometimes obscene images of religious figures (God the father, Son, and Holy Spirit sodomizing each other; Muhammad with a yellow star in his ass)—essentially different from mainstream satire? Is it crucial to Western culture that we be free to produce such images? Do they actually work as satire?

Neither straight journalism nor disengaged art, satire alludes to recognizable contemporary circumstances in a skewed and comic way so as to draw attention to their absurdity. There is mockery but with a noble motive: the desire to bring shame on some person or party behaving wrongly or ignorantly. Its raison d’ȇtre over the long term is to bring about change through ridicule; or if change is too grand an aspiration, we might say that it seeks to give us a fresh perspective on the absurdities and evils we live among, such that we are eager for change.

Since satire has this practical and pragmatic purpose, the criteria for assessing it are fairly simple: if it doesn’t point toward positive change, or encourage people to think in a more enlightened way, it has failed. That doesn’t mean it’s not amusing and well-observed, or even, for some, hilarious, in the way, say, witty mockery of a political enemy can be hilarious and gratifying and can intensify our sense of being morally superior. But as satire it has failed. The worst case is when satire reinforces the state of mind it purports to undercut, polarizes prejudices, and provokes the very behavior it condemns. This appears to be what happened with Charlie Hebdo’s images of Muhammad.

Why so? Crucial to satire is the appeal to supposed “common sense” and a shared moral code. The satirist presents a situation in such a way that it appears grotesque and the reader who, whatever his or her private interests, shares the same cultural background and moral education agrees that it is so. The classic example, perhaps, is Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal of 1729. Swift’s target was Protestant England’s economic policy in Catholic Ireland and the disastrous poverty this had created. After paragraphs of statistics on population and nutrition, we arrive at the grotesque.

(click link for the whole thing!)
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
So when did you figure out your interpretation of Islam was the only correct one?

By what authority can you claim that only yours is true, and that when muslims post interpretations of Islam that are peaceful, THEY are wrong and YOU are right?

When did you become a fundamentalist muslim?

When I read this, Praktik, I had to double check which page I'm on. Because now we're talking in complete circles.

You are proof positive of what is wrong with western nice people looking at Islam through their lens. I've said this before.

Islam makes a Claim for itself, written repeatedly in the Koran, that it is the end all, be all, no interpretation but ONE interpretation, book of Allah, from then and for forever! Forever and ever! No questions! No interpretation! Every single Muslim on Earth knows this and every single person who reads the Koran and believes it is a Muslim and knows this!

Praktik, why do you not believe me when I say that? You have three choices:

1. Willfully disbelieve that the Koran is a bunch of violent nonsense
2. Wait for any muslim in this thread at all to speak up and say that the Koran is wrong
3. READ THE BLOODY KORAN YOURSELF

You refuse to do any of those things. You really refuse to do any of those things. What is an intelligent West supposed to do with a person like you?

You are not for want of education or language. You are a clever person. But, it seems, like all religions, your mindset has made you blind.

WHAT makes you persist in the opinion that Islam is a religion of peace? What?

-jM
A&D
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
Praktik,

You have a smart mind.

SendAQuran.com - Send A Quran for FREE, Al-Furqaan Foundation, IL , USA

Here, they will send you a FREE KORAN.

Here is the RAW CODE of the Kuran
The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
Again.

I am sick and tired of making it easy for you to read the bloody book for yourself. You really have no position until you READ THE KORAN, and then come back to me and tell me about your westernized, bullshit, circumsized opinion.

It is exactly RIGHT THERE and NOT ONE muslim has countered anything I've said, because exactly 100% OF EVERYTHING I've said is Islamic and correct according to Sharia Law.

100%. .

Be a nice handsome Toronto person in a condo with kids somewhere; but you are WRONG when it comes to Islam and every Muslim KNOWS that you're wrong, and yet they say...

NOTHING...

NOTHING....

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....

-jM
A&D
 
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ndrwrld

TRIBE Member
I heard that the hackers "Anonymous" are waging war on ISIS and al-Qaeda.
Quite ironic that 72 virgins will be attacking the terrorists now!
 

Lojack

TRIBE Member
Praktik if you need a Koran I've got a few, people on the street and cab drivers keep giving them to me.
 

ndrwrld

TRIBE Member
The Rothchilds purchased Charlie Hebdo in December 2014. Then, after the attack, the French Government donates 1.2 Million so the magazine can go on.
Sales before attack...30,000 a week.
Sales after...3 Million.
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
Praktik if you need a Koran I've got a few, people on the street and cab drivers keep giving them to me.

Actually have a copy on my shelf - but have trouble wading through any of the ancient holy texts for any serious amount of time, kind of like reading Hobbes' Leviathan, the old language and syntax just doesn't read easily for me.

That said, I probably shouldn't pick it up and read it now - because if I do that will mean I will automatically agree with OBL and Jeffsus, since there is only One True Way to read the One True Book, or so it is alleged by radical extremists and those who carry their water.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
The Rothschilds are still quite the fixture for them, about all that's changed from the 1800s is the overt linking of them to an overtly anti-semitic conspiracy of world control (both Jews and catholics were suspected of divided loyalty and connection to One World Government conspiracies in service of their religious identity).

Now people have lost the nativism that lead them to these ideas - and for most who imbibe them the anti-semitic roots are no longer really why people fall for them - it was just the Rothschilds' route to the current Meta-Conspiracy of our times, the path that brought "Rothschild" into the common parlance of conspiracy subculture (along with the Bildebergers, Rockefellers, Trilateral Commision, etc etc)
 
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Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
Actually have a copy on my shelf - but have trouble wading through any of the ancient holy texts for any serious amount of time

Well I rest my case. I feel embarrassed about being an actually accomplished intellectual who is talking to a random kid online who can't even be bothered to bring the book off the shelf and read it -- even given multiple opportunities to read it online.

At this point, my questions for you are related to:

1. How big is your penis?
2. Do you bottom?

I'll pay $300 if you're less than 200 pounds, depending on your age, we can work out a deal.

Everyone has a price, but I know from now that I'm not paying for your opinion.

-jM
A&D
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
haha - or that reading the Koran or not would even resolve our differences - we've both seen the same bits of text used to further all kinds of narratives about islam in different ways.

It doesn't matter what the quote is really, it matters how you interpret it and what you're connecting it to.

The false premise here is that reading the Koran would have me agree with Jeff's *interpretation* of the Koran and have me adopt his view on Islam as a result.

This is clearly not a likely outcome from me re-reading portions of the Koran
 

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
It doesn't matter what the quote is really, it matters how you interpret it and what you're connecting it to.

so how would you interpret this :

008.012 : When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

it seems pretty straightforward in it's meaning. not much latitude for honest interpretations.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Seems pretty violent doesn't it.

Or is this a trick question? I was supposed to say it doesn't sound violent?

So yes - I guess there are violent verses in the Koran! What progress we are making
 
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DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
we are making progress if we can be honest about what much of these sacred texts actually mean, and not pretend they're some sort of rorschach test for the reader and the meaning is projected by them.

progress would also be calling out these passages as the hate they are and denouncing them.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Is that progress though?

I dont see how a condemnation fest is progress. But if this is some kind of litmus test - i think we can all agree:

A) there are violent passages in the koran
B) there are violent passages in all holy books
C) people use these passages rhetorically to justify actions

So great. We all agree these passages exist and they're bad.

Whats next then?
 

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
next? challenge the idea these texts are "sacred" and by extension absolute truth and infallible.

you do this by criticizing, condemning and mocking these bad ideas (as Charlie Hebdo did and still does)

this has been going on over the past few hundred years as more and more of these passages get relegated to being considered "batshit".
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
I guess I dont see much coming out of that - though I will be happy to condemn violent religious texts when asked, as this is pretty much rote for me at this point.

It is likely that the differing diagnoses between us is what leads one another to different prescriptions - and the idea that the other person is naively leading us on the road to ruin.

For my $$ and effort, I'd much rather focus on regional arrangements and Grand Bargains and all the tough diplomacy that needs to occur to reduce ongoing conflict in the region - for it is the ongoing and repetitive application of violence and trauma that give ideologues their power and what makes it easier for the general public to listen to them.

This likely stems from my differing diagnosis - that the violence we see in the ME and from Islamic terrorism is inextricably linked to nationalist, political and tribal causes, that it is (after a fashion) the "theme" given to much stronger underlying mechanics that are rather mundane and typical in the human condition.

It is the unravelling of these mechanics we need to get to - we can all talk each other's ears off about how bad certain manifestations of religious belief are and how much we abhor the ways it infects society with repression and backwards thinking - but it won't be a fart in a windstorm as long as great and regional powers are engaging in long-simmering cold wars along a few different axes of power (Sunni/Shia most broadly, but also Pakistan/India, Israel/Palestine, Europe vs America vs Russia vs China gets in the mix frequently enough too - to say nothing of the feuds of even more local units like tribes and cities).

There's a lot of states caught in a security trap - a deadly cycle of spending more on arms and conflict to shore up their own insecurity. We need the kind of diplomatic effort that today feels inconceivable and unworkable - but it may only be that we need to suffer even deeper wounds and pay higher prices before we eventually do it.

Chaos returns to order eventually, it just hurts on the way down.
 
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