Paris shooting massacre 2015

[Bernnie Federko]

Breaking news...

Reports from @SkyNews That 10 people have been killed at @Charlie_Hebdo_ offices in #Paris after they were stormed by gunmen

 

[praktik]

Hoping we get to a "Keep Calm Carry On" mindset in the next decade - expecting this latest to be another moment that ratchets up the security ladder domestically and potentially puts France in a more supportive position for foreign wars in the ME.

Only seems to go in one direction, each new incident ratcheting us up in one direction - towards ever more tradeoffs for security and more involvement in foreign (mis)adventures...

Let's see if France can start to be a grown up about this and take a page from the later years in the British/IRA experience.

 

[erika]

This was a targeted shooting aimed at the cartoonists and editor of Charlie Hebdo, who were in an editorial meeting.
10 journos and 2 officers were killed.
Their cover this week was going to be about controversial author Michel Houellebecq, whose latest book postulates that France could be ruled by Islamists in less than 10 years.

Charlie Hebdo was born out of the May revolt of 1968. They were ruthlessly satirical, and nothing escaped them.

They were THE paper of my youth.

They were firebombed after they repbublished all the Danish prophet cartoons, after which they published a cover saying "love over hate" showing a muslim making out with a white guy, complete with drool.

They had also recently published a cover showing that Muhammed, if he came back today, would probably be shot by Islamists.

They were completely irreverential and ballsy like nothing I've ever seen. This saddens me deeply.

Francois Hollande, speaking at the scene around noon, said that several terrorist attempts had been thwarted in the past week (what, who, who knows).

These guys had apparently planned this very professionally and looked specifically for their targets. One was overheard saying that the Prophet had been avenged.

Needless to say, the country is on higher terrorist alert than usual, with particular attention being paid to schools and places of worship. The guys escaped in a Citroen for which they have partial plates, but may have carjacked a second vehicle since.

I'm sad.

PS. The title should be changed: it's not a massacre in France per se, but a targeted attack on the offices of a satirical newspaper that happens to be in France.

 

[praktik]

Thanks for the insight Erika, hadn't yet heard about their new cover. Its a bit bizarre to see how deep that paranoia about Islam goes - that people could even publish a book with a thesis about an Islamic takeover of a major Western European country and not be laughed out to the street.

Our Canadian version of this outlook is Mark Steyn, when he remembers he's Canadian I guess..

 

[Techdruid]

Thank you for your always insightful input, Erika. je suis dévasté.

 

[erika]

This is the kind of paper they were:

Charlie Hebdo: French Satire Magazine's Shocking Covers (Photos) - The Daily Beast

 

[Jeffsus]

Very sad but not at all surprising that it was perpetrated by Muslims.

-jM
A&D

 

[Sal De Ban]

Their cover this week was going to be about controversial author Michel Houellebecq, whose latest book postulates that France could be ruled by Islamists in less than 10 years.

That's interesting. Houellebecq's work is really twisted, and it seems to come out so naturally (what a weird guy he must be). I'm still looking for the movie adaptation of "The Elementary Particles"...how much of that story can they actually put onto a screen?!

 

[DJ Vuvu Zela]

Its a bit bizarre to see how deep that paranoia about Islam goes - that people could even publish a book with a thesis about an Islamic takeover of a major Western European country and not be laughed out to the street.

it's called fiction bro.

 

[erika]

^
Needless to say the book has been getting tons of press, including from Charlie Hebdo.

 

[praktik]

Just sayin', these kinds of ideas have a lot of currency in France - have been for a few decades.

But maybe you're not all that exposed to the long-running debates in France on these issues - burqhas, the French secularist tradition and related policies, the "demographic threat" - these have all been much more prominent debates in continental Europe with North Americans like Steyn and others borrowing from the cottage anti-Islamic industry in France when they wanted to create a narrative of demographic doom from a rising Islamic threat in Europe - they have SO many babies!

 

[ndrwrld]

the video of the french police officer downed, then shot in the head, is horrific.
i don't know french, so i don't know what he said just before the head shot.
fuck.

 

[Mr. Magyar]

But ... But ... But Islam is a religion of peace!

 

[praktik]

But ... But ... But Islam is a religion of peace!

Yes it is - depending on where and who you are. Given there's a billion of them, there's going to be a minority/some bad seeds for whom it truly has become a "religion of violence" (to borrow a phrase from another thread title)

So Islam is a religion of peace AND violence at the same time, which might be a tough concept for some to grok.

 

[praktik]

Economist is on the case quickly, as per usual, their article ends on a worrying note:

Across the rest of Europe, the reaction was a mixture of shock and a sickening familiarity. Like Mr Chaghoumi, moderate Muslims expressed disgust at what they saw as a perversion of their religion. National leaders expressed solidarity with the French people. Anti-Islam populists moved to exploit anxieties over Muslim radicalism. (“This is war”, tweeted the Netherlands’ Geert Wilders.) The murders have plunged the continent back into a long-running conflict over freedom of expression, religious sensibilities and violent Muslim radicalism—with today’s attack putting France at the epicentre of that battle.​

Can't see anything good coming out of this...

 

[Mr. Magyar]

Yes it is - depending on where and who you are. Given there's a billion of them, there's going to be a minority/some bad seeds for whom it truly has become a "religion of violence" (to borrow a phrase from another thread title)

So Islam is a religion of peace AND violence at the same time, which might be a tough concept for some to grok.

Nonsense. Jews, Christians, Taoists, Hindus, etc. are not engaging in violence in the name of their religion to the degree that Muslims are. To suggest that it is just a few bad seeds who have taken over huge swaths of Iraq and Syria to establish a nonsensical caliphate, erupted in violence over satirizing their religion, and flown planes into buildings is nothing short of idiocy.

 

[rentboy]

 

[ndrwrld]

brilliant cough too soon cough

 

[erika]

Nonsense. Jews, Christians, Taoists, Hindus, etc. are not engaging in violence in the name of their religion to the degree that Muslims are. To suggest that it is just a few bad seeds who have taken over huge swaths of Iraq and Syria to establish a nonsensical caliphate, erupted in violence over satirizing their religion, and flown planes into buildings is nothing short of idiocy.

Christians did for ages! Inquisition anyone?

 

[praktik]

Nonsense. Jews, Christians, Taoists, Hindus, etc. are not engaging in violence in the name of their religion to the degree that Muslims are. To suggest that it is just a few bad seeds who have taken over huge swaths of Iraq and Syria to establish a nonsensical caliphate, erupted in violence over satirizing their religion, and flown planes into buildings is nothing short of idiocy.

Do you find name calling generally hurts or helps your interactions?

It is certainly NOT nonsense to remind people of how Islam is a religion of peace for far more people than for whom it is a religion of violence, and thats just in the numbers. There's a billion of them.

There's a few thousand ISIS fighters - and these people are fighting for many more reasons than just religion, including nationalism/tribalism - a recent history of political chaos and the inpouring of money/arms/support from powers all around the region making Iraq/Syria a particularly brutal place.

But is a brutal place not only - and certainly only tangentially - due to Islam.

 

[erika]

Nonsense. Jews, Christians, Taoists, Hindus, etc. are not engaging in violence in the name of their religion to the degree that Muslims are. To suggest that it is just a few bad seeds who have taken over huge swaths of Iraq and Syria to establish a nonsensical caliphate, erupted in violence over satirizing their religion, and flown planes into buildings is nothing short of idiocy.

And Hindus have slaughtered Muslims in India, Gujarat if I remember correctly.

 

[Mr. Magyar]

And Hindus have slaughtered Muslims in India, Gujarat if I remember correctly.

That's not on the scale of the Inquisition.

 

[erika]

Demonstrations of support and mourning have begun in France: place de la Republique is packed in Paris, over 10,000 people in Lyon.

 

[praktik]

Good article here:

Je Suis Charlie » Spectator Blogs

Doubtless some will still, even now, find a way to blame the victims. Doubtless some will do anything they can to avoid looking reality squarely in the face. Doubtless some will pretend that reality can be wished away or that responsibility can be transferred to someone, anyone, other than the perpetrators. Shame on those people. Shame.

Doubtless, too, there will be the usual calls on all Muslims everywhere to condemn these attacks as though they bear some inchoate communal responsibility for the barbarous actions of their co-religionists. This too will be drearily predictable and familiar and, most of all, desperately unfair. Their Islam has nothing to do with this even if it is also true that other subscribers to the faith do not share their views. The platitudinous suggestion Islam is a religion of peace is evidently, abundantly, true for the vast majority of Muslims while being utterly untrue for some. And so what? Where does that leave us? Only in a state of dread that’s matched only by its inadequacy.​

 

[erika]

Pretty well all cities of any size have demonstrations of support.
Trafalgar Square is also full.