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Outkast's indian performance during the grammys

Booty Bits

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Mike Richards

...and why when I ask people what their back grounds do they tell me stupid things like "part Italian- part Jewish"?
Jewish is not a nationality.

"yeah I'm part Canadian-part Catholic"
its probably cuz they were raised in both cultures. there are jews in italy, but they're a pretty small community. so they probably have one parent whos italian and one whos jewish.
both of those (italian and jewish) are CULTURES that extend beyond their religions.
 

Moez

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Isosceles_CAT
Pardon my ignorance, but is that really true?
from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Native-American

Encyclopedia: Native American
Native Americans (also American Indians, Amerindians, Amerinds, or Red Indians) are indigenous peoples and descendants of those who lived in the Americas prior to the European colonization. Many of these tribally affiliated ethnic groups endure today as political communities. The name "Indians" was bestowed by Christopher Columbus, who mistakenly believed that the places he found them were among the islands in Southeast Asia known to Europeans as the Indies. (See further discussion below).

Canadians generally use the term First Nations to refer to Native Americans; the Canadian Indian Act, however, which defines the rights of recognized First Nations, refers to them as Indians. In Alaska, because of legal use in the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act (ANSCA) and because of the presence of the Inuit, Yupik, and Aleut peoples, the term Alaskan Native predominates. In Canada, however, Inuit are not considered First Nations (neither are M tis).

The preferred term in Latin America for the original inhabitants of the Central and South America is Indigenous peoples. (See further discussion below.) Native Americans officially make up the majority of the population in Bolivia, Peru and Guatemala and are significant in most other former Spanish colonies, with the exception of Costa Rica, Cuba, Argentina, Dominican Republic and Uruguay.
 

Evil Dynovac

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by janiecakes
?

What the crap are you talking about?
When it comes to race perceptions and individual perceptions there is a double standard. When someone does something positive they may be dubbed a 'credit to their race' while someone who does something negative is never representing their culture and if we say that they are we are branded as rascists.

I've always found it a perplexing twist in logic that is common in our society. Racial representation (and misrepresentation for that matter) is selective.
 

R4V4G3D_SKU11S

TRIBE Member
On one hand - coming from the whitey side of things - doesn't seem like a big deal.

But if you stop and put yourself in the other sides shoes, it becomes a bit clearer. Its not that they think that this will further smear their cultural image - We've come far enough that people know that Native culture isn't all stereotypical bows and arrows and teepees. Its more the fact that this WAS the way they were actually portrayed/perceived for many years, and it did it indeed end up having monstrous repercussions for their culture. While nowadays we know better than to take such portrayals literally, it wasn't always that way.

So its more that Natives see this as a disrespect/devaluation of what they were put through.

I bet if they'd come out wearing Swastikas, people would have been pissed - even though we all know Outkast aren't Nazis.

Oh and the fact that Natives are out on the street, alcoholics, had nothing to do with that whole cultural assimilation thingy a hundred years back? Musta been a weak culture! (So tempted to rolleyes here). You might want to do a biiit more reading on the subject, Dynovac.
 

mingster

TRIBE Member
can someone please explain to me the connection between "native cultures" and outkast? why would they have chosen this theme for their performance?
 

vveerrgg

TRIBE Promoter
you guys are getting in a huff over nothing....

I thought their performance was wikkd!

If it were Carabanna would you be just as upset? There are lots of crazy outfits and dancing and stuff that could be compared to native indian culture........ Thats been around for ages and it's accepted.

just chill.... everyone who gets their nose outta joint over this..... really..... take a minute and get your nose outta joint for something that matters. go find a REAL cause to get pissed about.

entertainment is there to entertain...

ya'lls were prob. just as upset at janets boob being on tv. :p
 

R4V4G3D_SKU11S

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Evil Dynovac
but the gluesniffing aboriginals that sleep on Queen St. all day aren't representing their race or culture in the slightest.
They aren't representing Native Culture.

They are representing the LACK of their culture. Which was taken from them by European Settlers. And you say you've done reading on the subject??

And vverrgg - way to weigh in there, pal.

Carribean people celebrating their own culture != Other people showcasing stereotypes that were once used to condone cultural genocide.
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Evil Dynovac
When it comes to race perceptions and individual perceptions there is a double standard. When someone does something positive they may be dubbed a 'credit to their race' while someone who does something negative is never representing their culture and if we say that they are we are branded as rascists.

I've always found it a perplexing twist in logic that is common in our society. Racial representation (and misrepresentation for that matter) is selective.
I don't think this is true.

I've heard the expression 'a credit to their race' criticized for its racism before. It's definitely not an expression I would ever use.
 

Evil Dynovac

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by R4V4G3D_SKU11S
Oh and the fact that Natives are out on the street, alcoholics, had nothing to do with that whole cultural assimilation thingy a hundred years back? Musta been a weak culture! (So tempted to rolleyes here). You might want to do a biiit more reading on the subject, Dynovac.
I am of course aware that the Native American plight on the streets is a result of forced assimilation. That wasn't the discussion at hand but I guess it bears mentioning.

A weak culture? It's bad to say and would get the 'roll eyes' from any politically correct person, and from an overall point of view is false, but I have tried to ponder cultural assimilation dispassionately from time to time. Throughout the ages two cultures meet. Most often they are not peaceful and a conflict of one type or another breaks out. One culture is defeated, the other assimilates what's left. Why does one thrive in this situation and the other receive defeat? Of course every instance of this phenomena has different factors but one can't help but wonder why some cultures had a propensity for assimilation, why they were so darn good at it. Ahh, but I ramble.

A chilling thought to consider is this, if Columbus had discovered America in 992 rather than 1492 there would not be a single Native American alive today. Five hundred years earlier there was no sparing of cultures and peoples. Europe is home to the graves of indigineous cultures that never saw latter times. Consider the Celts, who we know existed but have no existing cultural purity today.

The point of this is that the sparing of opponents, the allowance of survival and cultural integrity of the defeated (such as it is) is a relatively new practice in human behaviour.
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by vveerrgg
go find a REAL cause to get pissed about.
I find it really irritating that this gets busted out every time anyone says 'hey - this pisses me off' about race or gender stereotypes.

It's such a lazy thing to say. If you don't feel like discussing it, then don't. But don't slag other people for doing so. And don't assume that people who discuss this kind of shit AREN'T pissed about issues that you consider more important than this one.
 

Klubmasta Will

TRIBE Member
you guys should stop beating around the bush.

i didn't see the performance, but, given the descriptions i've read, i can certainly see why natives would be offended.

add it to the list next to the atlanta braves, the tomahawk chop, the washington redskins and that wacky cartoon they use to represent cleveland baseball.

while you're at it, all you white people should kindly stop getting chinese tattoos and practicing martial arts.
 

mutslaster

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by janiecakes
I find it really irritating that this gets busted out every time anyone says 'hey - this pisses me off' about race or gender stereotypes.

It's such a lazy thing to say. If you don't feel like discussing it, then don't. But don't slag other people for doing so. And don't assume that people who discuss this kind of shit AREN'T pissed about issues that you consider more important than this one.
AMEN sister.
 

Booty Bits

TRIBE Member
mingster, i don't think you're going to find a satisfactory answer to your question.
outkast is big on costumes and ridiculous get-ups for their live performances, and i think the native theme was just the next idea of andre 3000's list.

to be honest, when i first saw the performance, i loved it. i thought it was amazing, and i adored the marching band dressed up to look like toy soldiers. then i talked to a few people about it in the days following the show, and i realized that there was a whole subtext that i hadn't seen originally.

but on to what dynovac is saying (spewing?), i really think your tie-in to homeless native people is WEAK.
 

Evil Dynovac

TRIBE Member
One race should never pretend to be another race because there will always be a chance that the pretending person will come off as a dillhole and then he will misrepresenting the race he is pretending to be.

Only when everyone is acting like their own kind and not like another kind will we all be together, respectful, as one.

:rolleyes:

I always found it stupid that culture comes before humanity.
 

R4V4G3D_SKU11S

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Evil Dynovac
The point of this is that the sparing of opponents, the allowance of survival and cultural integrity of the defeated (such as it is) is a relatively new practice in human behaviour.
OK - point made - and agreed that it is new - but does that make it wrong to go against it? The whole idea of multi-culturalism is a new concept. Should we begin to shirk it here in Canada, because it isn't how things have been done in the past?

I think this incident goes beyond just "political-corrrectness". How about a Jewish person getting up in arms had they come out in Swastikas? Is that political corectness gone awry? Do images used by Imperialists to condone ethnic/cultural genocide become fair game after a certain amount of time has elapsed?
 

Littlest Hobo

TRIBE Member
Outkast should stop perpetuating native stereotypes, what with the headdresses and all, and get back to stereotyping hip-hop stereotypes, with the Cristal, dancing half naked chicks and expensive cars.
 

Evil Dynovac

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Booty Bits


... but on to what dynovac is saying (spewing?), i really think your tie-in to homeless native people is WEAK.
I understand Liz, basically I can't even mention alcoholic Native Americans without crossing a line, whereas if I started a thread on my alcoholic uncle that wouldn't bat an eye.

You and RS are doing what we're all suppose to be doing, and I won't bust on you for that. We whites are to quash all forms of inter-racial unpleasantness and ensure that Canada's Natives are supported and shielded from any ill thought or word. We are to encourage them as they pick up the pieces when we destroyed their way of life.

Doesn't leave much room for truly open discussion but I agree that it's the right thing to do.
 

R4V4G3D_SKU11S

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Evil Dynovac
One race should never pretend to be another race because there will always be a chance that the pretending person will come off as a dillhole and then he will misrepresenting the race he is pretending to be.
They should have half a brain and realize that they should maybe lay off using symbols that were employed to destroy a culture.

THAT is the actual kind of respect for other humans that you are talking about.

And Will, again when were martial arts and chinese lettering tatoos used to attempt to wipe out the chinese?
 

janiecakes

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Evil Dynovac
I understand Liz, basically I can't even mention alcoholic Native Americans without crossing a line, whereas if I started a thread on my alcoholic uncle that wouldn't bat an eye.
haha

COME ON!
 

Evil Dynovac

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by R4V4G3D_SKU11S
They should have half a brain and realize that they should maybe lay off using symbols that were employed to destroy a culture.
See, I agree with this, which is why wearing swastikas is just wrong.

But where does Outkast's use of the warbonnet and teepee fall into your above statement? When was the warbonnet and teepee employed to destroy a culture?
 
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