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Now Porter wants an even longer runway than first proposed at Toronto Island airport

alison87

TRIBE Member
Porter got me to Chicago for Honey Dijon & Derrick Carter, Montreal for Neil Young and New York for Fengler, Tobias & Efdemin.

Air Canada got me to Canada for a marriage that barely lasted 3 years.

I know who wins.

Edit: Though i did fly through Pearson to go to Vegas. Tipping the scales a bit. Damn.
 
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Chris

Well-Known TRIBEr
I dont like this idea at all, and I dont think counsel will vote for this either. We cant even get a casino downtown for right or wrong, now an airport expansion with jets? No way folks, no way.
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
I dont like this idea at all, and I dont think counsel will vote for this either. We cant even get a casino downtown for right or wrong, now an airport expansion with jets? No way folks, no way.

You have more faith in Toronto city Council than I do Chris. As soon as Porter & Bombardier start plying them with drinks, free plane tickets, and fact finding junkets to Montreal their votes will change.
 
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sianspherica

TRIBE Member
You have more faith in Toronto city Council than I do Chris. As soon as Porter & Bombardier start plying them with drinks, free plane tickets, and fact finding junkets to Montreal their votes will change.

Pretty much

There is too much money to be made in this

Eventually people will start getting paid off or getting perks and all levels of government will give in.

What a shame, Toronto was starting to have such a nice waterfront, now it's just going to sound like an airport. You'll look over the water to the island and jumbo jets will be going back and forth all day.
 

sianspherica

TRIBE Member
Oh for sure.

Your 3 year marriage to a human male may not have worked out

But your next marriage to a female llama sounds like a splendid union.
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
Having just watched how the Councilors were all lapping at the casino trough, while some even simultaneously took public stands against casinos, I think we are in store for a massive spectacle of municipal ball washing for months to come... On the casino issue, besides the party favors, who knows what kind of other items changed hands under the table from the casino lobby.... $10,000 or $50,000 Vegas poker chips perhaps? More? Future fact-finding trips to Vegas? Promises of future campaign donations? Billion dollar jet deals will take Councillor fluffing to the next level, but I wonder if we will ever get to know the full scope of it.
 

Wiseman

TRIBE Member
I think people should realize that it will take more than an "ammendment" to the terms of the Tripartite Agreement to allow Jets. I think they may have to throw the whole thing out. The document defines the use of the airport as:

“as a permanent public airport available for general aviation, and from the time of receipt of a request from the Minister, available for limited commercial STOL service operations.”

The spirit of the document is intended to focus the use of the airport on personal aircraft and limit Commercial Airline use. For what Porter wants I think they need to get the document completely redone.

As a side note the document actually specifically restricts the land from being used for a Casino.

Here is the agreement (see section 9 on page 6):

http://communityair.org/briefing/docs/briefing8-tripartite.pdf
 
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agentRC4

TRIBE Member
Pretty much

There is too much money to be made in this

Eventually people will start getting paid off or getting perks and all levels of government will give in.

What a shame, Toronto was starting to have such a nice waterfront, now it's just going to sound like an airport. You'll look over the water to the island and jumbo jets will be going back and forth all day.

Jumbo Jets can't use the airport even with the new runway addition. It won't be large enough.

They are asking the agreement to allow the cSeries planes which are on average 20db's louder than the current planes Porter uses.

With the initial request for 12 planes there will be 12 extra departures and 12 extra arrivals a day. Departures in the morning and arrivals in the evening. So it is not a drastic uptick in traffic and noise.

As noted before the new cseries planes are 6% below the current notice level requirements in the agreement.


This is going to be approved. The CDN government has put a lot behind the new C series planes. The jobs this new project creates here and MTL is a great win for everyone and is good for the CDN economy.

Porter should be given a pat on the back for doing good business.

Remember Olivia Chow protesting in 2006 when the first flight took off. She said their business model would never work. Well here we are 6 years later with a potential 2 Billion dollar boost to the economy courtesy of two great Canadian companies Porter and Bombardier.
 

Blysspluss

TRIBE Member
Personally, I'm stoked. Canadian-built aircraft...and potentially a new carrier in YXE to right downtown to YTZ?(One can hope, anyway)

Very very cool.
 

Wiseman

TRIBE Member
Not sure why everyone is touting Porter as a success. The last financials I saw (I'll try to find where I saw it) shows they aren't making money yet.
 

sianspherica

TRIBE Member
Porter's flight loads are in the mid 50%'s, AC and Westjet are in the 80's

So basically each Porter flight is nearly HALF EMPTY
 
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blueshrike

TRIBE Member
FWIW after having been to Nice, France (once in my life a long time ago), I don't think this is a good idea.

Lots of tourists and some locals hang out on the waterfront and there are lots of hotels and tourist focused businesses in Nice. So it seemed like it didn't kill commerce. But I found the constant air traffic unpleasant. Like a jet lands every 5 minutes or less from like 6am till midnight. The final approach is just off the beach over the water in front of the city just like at BB.

I have flown Porter and I do like it. But they should run their jets out of Pearson like everyone else. Take the runway extension money and build high speed rail to Pearson and put more security people there so that security delays decrease.

The waterfront here already sucks. Can we, maybe, do something to make it less sucky for a change instead of more sucky. If the waterfront didn't suck, then people would want to go there and that would, in the long run, bring a lot more economic value to TDot than yet another airline that will eventually go bankrupt (as they all eventually seem to do)
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
the beaches in Ibiza and St. Marteen sucked because of all the planes flying overhead:rolleyes:

just saying
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
I spend a lot of time on the Toronto Islands, and I have noticed an increase in air traffic, especially in the last 2 years. Planes are coming in 1 km apart already, and there already queues for takeoffs with the existing aircraft. If you have ever taken the Hanlan's ferry you can see one plane landing while another is a short distance behind it on final approach... I guess the only way they can increase the passenger throughput is to land and take off faster and maybe jets will do that, or use bigger planes and I guess that is why they are buying these Bombardier planes.

It would be interesting to know how many passenger planes already take off and land from the Island Airport and how much headroom is in that schedule for more frequency.
 
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derek

TRIBE Member
Porter's flight loads are in the mid 50%'s, AC and Westjet are in the 80's

So basically each Porter flight is nearly HALF EMPTY

things changed a bit. i've flown all 3 and it was AC and WJ that were going out 50% (even less) a few months ago. i've purposelly choosen those two knowing for flights where i'm coming back on a friday it's easier to bump if i'm finished business a little earlier.

west jet as a company is doing pretty well.

most porter flights i've been on were at least 80% full. mind you it's a popular corridor (tor to montreal).

if the current agreement doesn't allow for jets this is something that will need to be work through, and create a new agreement. if in the end though they can meet all the requirements, i don't see the issue. if the issue is decibels, in theory, it shouldn't matter whether it's jet or not so long as it doesn't go over the limit.

you can have a nice waterfront and an airport as well. also, the waterfront is much bigger than the small stretch that parallels the airport. plenty of space.
 

blueshrike

TRIBE Member
20 db is a lot. That's 100 times the sound power.

Though I must admit that perceived loudness is much less. 20db will seem to increase loudness by 4 times for most people.

Also interesting to note that the sound contours for the CS100 series are all estimated calculations ... since the plane hasn't flown yet.

CSeries on track for first flight in June, says Bombardier

The estimated 70db sound contour seems like it would be over residential and definitely would be over the waterfront.
Noise contours for the Bombardier CS100 and the Porter Airlines expected order | Leeham News and Comment

70db is very noticeable.
Noise Comparisons

However, the quality of the noise coming from a jet is different than a prop plane ... so maybe that will make it difference.
 

blueshrike

TRIBE Member
20db is not relatively loud. 100x the sound of power is not loud.

poor comparison.

i live on the subway line and probably deal with more noise than anyone near the island airport.

20 db is not loud at all. But an increase in 20db can mean a lot. It raises the sound power by 100x and the perceived noise by 4x.

I feel bad for you then Derek. Noise can be quite harmful.
 
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