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Not to get too philosophical, but....

somasociety

TRIBE Member
My question for the day is about biases. More specifically, is the development of some form of a 'social class' bias avoidable? I was actively thinking today if (and if so how) I was being at all biased towards any of my fellow human beings on a day-in-day-out basis. Racially, nope. Gender-wise, no. Sexual orientation, no. religion, no. Class? Hmmmmm... I think about it: I'm a middle class, university educated individual who had to work to get myself through school. I have more than enough education to be aware of, and concerned about, the extreme class differences/inequalities that exist in Western society. It really pisses me off that 'the rich get richer, the poor get poorer' is not "just a saying". Rich kids don't have to work like I do. Waah, waah, etc., etc. So anyway, OK, I guess I dislike 'rich' people. Then the other day , my friend asks me, "How likely is it that you would go out with a girl without a university education?". And I think, huh, probably not too likely. I really only am attracted to, and want to be with, people who have been exposed to the level of knowledge/experience/existence that I have been. So, am I biased or what? And if so, is this at all avoidable or destructible?

Sorry this was so freakin' long.... :rolleyes:
 

PosTMOd

Well-Known TRIBEr
I wouldn't go out with a stupid girl, university educated or not. University makes some stupids even stupider... nothing worse than a stupid who thinks that an education makes them smart.

It is the nature of humans to categorize. That is what our brains do. With this comes bias, so it is unavoidable in that sense. However, merely *knowing* that you will be biased can help you reduce the bias... and progressively less biased in subsequent interactions.
 

somasociety

TRIBE Member
<---- in agreement.

What am I saying though, is IS that shite eventually avoidable at all? Even once one has a 'class bias' knowledge, can one improve upon it?

I think this might be a deeper question about the 'rehabilitation potential' of people in general... I've been studying alot of law, sociology, criminology, etc. lately and have been debating how truly possible it is to rehab someone... Some say nothing works...
 

dlerium88

TRIBE Member
^^^ Being a dumb university girl I can attest to that ;)

Actually I know I'm somewhat biased towards less educated people. But to me an educated person isn't necessarily a university student or graduate. It's somebody who takes the time to learn about things that interest them.

I remember somebody telling me once about the three classes of people: (I cant remember the exact quote but this is the jist of it)

The ones who talk about themselves

the ones who talk about other people

the ones who talk about more important things than people.

Ritika <-- ok i know someone else has to know the saying I'm talking about..if you do please refresh my memory!
 

dlerium88

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by somasociety
<---- in agreement.

What am I saying though, is IS that shite eventually avoidable at all? Even once one has a 'class bias' knowledge, can one improve upon it?

I think this might be a deeper question about the 'rehabilitation potential' of people in general... I've been studying alot of law, sociology, criminology, etc. lately and have been debating how truly possible it is to rehab someone... Some say nothing works...

but I dont know if Id say that only wanting to date an educated person is necessarily a class bias.
 
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somasociety

TRIBE Member
I like the gist of the quote, dlerious, but I'm afraid I don't know the author

But hey, because one good 'class' quote deserves another.. :D

Martin Niemoller (copied at the entrance to the Yad Va-Shem, the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Jerusalem):


They came for the Communists
And I didn't object for I wasn't a Communist;
They came for the Socialists
And I didn't object for I wasn't a Socialist;
They came for the Labour leaders
And I didn't object for I wasn't a Labour leader;
They came for the Jews
And I didn't object for I wasn't a Jew;
Then they came for me
And there was no one left to object
 

somasociety

TRIBE Member
but I dont know if Id say that only wanting to date an educated person is necessarily a class bias.

Isn't it? Or is there on some subconscious level a bias against people who don't have the opportunity/$$$ to do the university thing? Blah.

Hope you're right, don't know why I'm arguing....
 

sarafina

TRIBE Member
ritika! i know what you mean...but i can't remember exactly...the first part you said was right i think:
stupid people talk about themselves..
smart people talk about events??
wise people talk about ideas??
something like that...but i don't know exactly..

Sarah
i like it too though!
 

Quirkz

TRIBE Member
There are innate "norms" which are amplified by our fast paced society. They either hold people back or make them strive too high. It's hard for a poor person to set a goal as high as a well off person if they've never realy seen, or understood, what they can acheive.
 

dlerium88

TRIBE Member
Ok yeah sarafina. You're so much closer than I was! (Good thing I was trying to think of something smart while I was drunk *lol*)

and maybe somasociety you're right, but as much as I think it's hard for people of so-called "lower-classes" to goto university, I don't think its that much harder. I think its more of a societal influcence. As in, some of these people of "lower" classes aren't necessarily pushed in the same direction. I'm not sure though. I havent really met many people who haven't tried to furthur their education, regardless of how small of an action...(be it school, or just reading)
 
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dlerium88

TRIBE Member
What Quirks said..he said it in a much less offensive way than was in my head..but yeah thats what I meant!

Ritika <-- not good at the political correct thing
 

labRat

TRIBE Member
i think there's a large difference between intelligence coming from a school and intelligence coming from experience. Book smarts only go so far, and really it's not that far at all.

i tend to be more agreeable with the latter - experiences tend to make a person much wiser than those who are stuck to bound pieces of paper. those that choose to believe that a four year degree will make them 'smarter' are correct in a sense. Those that choose to experience life beyond the confines of brick and morter type learning are far more knowledgeable.

--craig
 

Quirkz

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by *labRat*
i think there's a large difference between intelligence coming from a school and intelligence coming from experience. Book smarts only go so far, and really it's not that far at all.

It's what you make of it. If a person thinks a degree or letters behind their name is what gives them power they'll get nowhere, it's knowing your strengths and constantly improving your weaknesses. There's people you meet and you know instantly they will do well in life no matter what they do, and there's people you meet you know they won't.. I think it's mostly upbrining not money, although the exteremes obviously don't fit that.
 

Syntax Error

Well-Known TRIBEr
Originally posted by dlerium88
but as much as I think it's hard for people of so-called "lower-classes" to goto university, I don't think its that much harder. I think its more of a societal influcence. As in, some of these people of "lower" classes aren't necessarily pushed in the same direction. I'm not sure though. I havent really met many people who haven't tried to furthur their education, regardless of how small of an action...(be it school, or just reading)

i don't believe it's necessarily a class difference. some people have a higher desire to learn because they were encouraged to do so as a child. i didn't come from a very rich family but my parents encouraged me to read and got me interested in science and math at a very young age(plus sesame street helped a lot).

some people i know have no true interest in learning and only go to school to get a diploma and get a job. which is fine since we do live in the real world and you do need some form of education to get anywhere.

it's not really a rich/poor issue, although that does have a lot to do with it. it's more about how much love the parents have of learning and whether or not they try to instill that in their children. many rich parents let other people raise their kids and they're children become just as ignorant as the rest of society.
 

Pyrovitae

TRIBE Member
"the idea that all men are equal is obviously false, in so far as psychological aptitudes and talents are concerned--it is also untrue considered as the reality of a social order, which at best can be equal opportunities and equity before the law"~jaspers, (one of my favourite existentialists.)

we all have inherent and unique biases, i think. perhaps the most important aspect to overcoming that is self recognition and *awareness* of the bias that exists.

in regards to this discussion...well, i think it's a little ludicrous, actually. if i were to discriminate a potential partner based on being as well-read as i am, in various categories, (psychology, sociology, philosophy, elizabethan ---> gothic ---> victorian literature and everything in between,) then i don't think i would find many suitable matches, even if i don't happen to have a university diploma or education. (i'm not trying to sound conceited or anything.:) but it's true!)

the difficulty with looking for someone as a friend or otherwise with "knowledge/experience/existence" that you yourself have had, is that it's veritably impossible. not to mention that diversity is what makes other's interesting and complementary to us.

reality is subjective and we've each had a subset of very different experiences.

and i agree with labrat who said that "booksmarts" can only take you so far...there has to be an integration of "book" and "street" smarts to comprise a well-rounded individual.

*muah*
~N

(somasociety...is your name a nod to aldous huxley's 'brave new world'?)
 
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Temper Tantrum

TRIBE Member
I thought the quote was:

small minds talk about people
average minds talk about events
great minds talk about ideas


maybe? :)

~allie~
 

AshG

Member
Originally posted by dlerium88
Ok yeah sarafina. You're so much closer than I was! (Good thing I was trying to think of something smart while I was drunk *lol*)

and maybe somasociety you're right, but as much as I think it's hard for people of so-called "lower-classes" to goto university, I don't think its that much harder. I think its more of a societal influcence. As in, some of these people of "lower" classes aren't necessarily pushed in the same direction. I'm not sure though. I havent really met many people who haven't tried to furthur their education, regardless of how small of an action...(be it school, or just reading)

I've met many people who haven't tried to further their education, and have actually made an effort to curtail their education.
But this fact, I've observed, has little to do with intelligence(or class). I regard intelligence as the ability to generalize, both in a creative and critical manner.

Finance: what is the limit to what you do/n't understand the implications of foreign policy or ripple effects of compounding interests.
Art: how is this work actually and extension of the work done in another, seemingly disaparte, movement? How is it not?
Literature: How is the author's attempt to foreshadow insufficient in analogy? How does it manage to accomplish substructuring of the plot despite this shortcoming?
Math: How might this relationship be a simplified version of a larger relationship? Expain how this simplification occurs.

Some of the students I teach wouldn't even know what those questions mean, much less how to begin thinking about them. And some in this group are university bound.
Other students I teach have no intention of doing any king of post-secondary education, but could provide rather excellent responses to these types of questions.

Some students who go to university really don't benefit much by it, but others who don't go, would. And I think its tied into any one person's ability to generalize their education and use it in whatever situation they find themselves.

For me, intelligence x= education, but intelligence is an important factor in comptability; I want to be able to communicate well with my partner.

I think the class bias does rear its head when you consider the social circles in which you congregate. How likely is it, after having spent 4 years making friends in a uni environment, to associate with many people who haven't? Utlimately, probability says you won't have as many partners to choose from in the non-uni class.

and now i realize im beginning t ramble, so i'll just stop now.
 

Plato

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Pyrovitae
(somasociety...is your name a nod to aldous huxley's 'brave new world'?)

thats what i was thinking, great name eh!? :)

somasocioety, you may very well have a bias, otherwise you woudlnt be questioning it. i think the only way to rid yourself of it is to open yourself up to getting close with someone of a different social class and discover how wrong you may have been.

but then agian...may not be the best thing to do...i'd be pretty insulted if someone was dating me only to prove something to themselves.

p[l]a+0
 

HappyJR

TRIBE Member
Well... I know what you're saying, exept there's one thing that I think everyone has to take into account here.

A university education really has nothing to do with class...

Really, a university education is essentially the highschool of the new millenium.

It's basically where people of both lower and "middle" classes go to get trained.

University is trade school. You don't get an education, you go to learn how to do a job.

Lower class, "middle class" whatever you are, if you're in university it's cause you have no enheritance, wich means that in order to survive, you have to work.

And, the middle class just an imaginary class that the middle class itself is all to happy to propagate. It's really just the defenition of a better trained, and even more docile working class.

So, for the middle class to look down on the lower class is the most rediculous thing, because they're all working class... they're all lower class. Some of them just like to think they're not.

And as for university education. Think about it, the truly upper class don't have to go to university because they have an inheritance. They don't need to work and so they don't need to get trained. So when you talk about looking down on those that don't have a university education, remeber, it might go the other way around too.

And finally. All I can say is, as someone who's in the process of being University "educated" I get along a lot better with the guys I unload trucks with at work, then with the stupid self deluded fuckers I go to school with.
 
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Syntax Error

Well-Known TRIBEr
Originally posted by HappyJR

And finally. All I can say is, as someone who's in the process of being University "educated" I get along a lot better with the guys I unload trucks with at work, then with the stupid self deluded fuckers I go to school with.

Amen!
 

Syntax Error

Well-Known TRIBEr
oh so i'm in the way! is that all i am, an inconvieniece because you had to edit your post! i have feelings to you know! that really hurt.
 
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