Norway does it right - why can't Canada?

[wickedken]

Here's the whole quote:

Today, the tax brings in $1 billion a year in revenue that is returned to British Columbia taxpayers. Assessing the tax’s impact on overall greenhouse gas emissions is a somewhat complicated endeavor, given a number of confounding factors (like the economic collapse of 2008-2009), but it’s clear that when it comes to the use of carbon-intensive petroleum products like gasoline and diesel, there has been a marked decline since the year 2008 in British Columbia. In the first four years of the carbon tax, sales of refined petroleum products per capita in BC declined by 15 percent, according to the Sightline Institute, substantially more than the decline in Canada as a whole.

The things I take from it:
- Government takes in the money, meaning that it is not revenue neutral.
- Impact on emissions is "complicated"
- Sales of refined petroleum products has declined 15%

The last point does not mean that emissions have declined, nor does it mean that sales have declined due to the carbon tax. This is the thing with economics: it's a fuzzy science aka social with many factors at play. What is common with these schemes however is the imposition of a social cost towards a favoured few: see the renewable energy program right here in Ontario that has ended up giving literally hundreds of millions of dollars to multinational corporations in the name of environmentalism.

I'm not doubting the goal.

I'm just doubting that this government is in any way capable of steering our society towards that goal. If you think they are capable, then logically you think that the Liberal government's missteps *just* in the recent past is an aberration, yes?

 

[djfear]

Why must you compare Olso to Vancouver?

Someone said to me that Munich was like Toronto.


NO.

Because they are both:
- ocean coastal cities, roughly facing west
- similar size: oslo 1.5m, vancouver 2.3m
- mild climate vs the rest of the region
- surrounded by mountains
- both avid ski & snowboarding opportunities
- nature in their backyard
- "sky trains"
- small downtown
- expensive as fuck, though Norway takes the cake on this

I've stayed in both cities for several weeks at a time to get a sense for each place. Yes, they're different - Oslo is in Europe and its nature is european, so the architecture is different, but they're still similar.

 

[praktik]

I'm just doubting that this government is in any way capable of steering our society towards that goal. If you think they are capable, then logically you think that the Liberal government's missteps *just* in the recent past is an aberration, yes?

I dont really go in for the whole 'governments can't do anything right' philosophy, but I know its a big trend in our times.

The issues here are even more meta than a particular bugaboo about "politicians" and "government" - because I'm not sure "businesses" and "individuals" are capable of thwarting disaster either.

I think its worth trying - and i like what a carbon tax does from a philosophical/economic perspective, starting to integrate into our capitalism some true costs that we have not been assessing directly. Its a bit disruptive, but only because we've been doing bad math without using some variables that were inconvenient, because it meant individuals would pay higher the more they consumed and businesses would have higher costs for unleashing products that cause society wide damage.

Now, I have a sneaking suspicion Monbiot is right, and that our economic order itself is the issue, but as long as we're going to have a capitalist economic system we might as well welcome these kinds of openings and take the opportunity to nudge it in the direction of a more accurate and sustainable model for growth - staying status quo clearly isn't working, and no one can demonstrate serious harm done by the BC carbon tax, only benefit and benefit.

So why not? Might as well give it a shot before The Troubles set in.

 

[wickedken]

Dude it's not about "governments" its this particular government that has consistently shown itself to be inept, short-sighted and having the propensity to enrich a select few.

Like I said earlier in this thread, the goal is fine, but there is a disconnect between the goal and what public policy can achieve.

 

[praktik]

I guess this makes solutions to global warming extra sad, because only governments can implement and enforce the directives that will influence businesses and individuals to meet the targets we need to meet.

Where they are not in an ideological straight jacket that precludes all policy options that make a dent, most are still too beholden to business interests that profit from status quo and from a general public that has become tantalized by the dirt kicked up by AGW denialism, giving politicians the space to not drive so hard on this.

It also is coming at exactly the wrong time for our international structure - if an issue ever required international cooperation and a pooled sovereignty it's this one. But we are still too much divided into little States and coordination is still too difficult for us to achieve anything (absent is serious enforcement too)

So it's not just our government - no government is really equipped to make big progress on this - even Germany has both hands tied behind its back on nuclear.

So what about our liberal government? I don't believe they are especially incompetent, they seem rather typically so. And I have a made in Canada solution working great so why not copy that here. I would want the tax no matter who is in power, once we have one (taking the long view) we can make it better and better and give it more teeth over the years and with big plans to offset the disruption (something we never do that well: see NAFTA)

But I'm not going to let a general complaint about governments or specific ones about this government stop me from welcoming a long overdue change: we absolutely need this mechanism!

 

[Puma]

The end result will be more business will move to China . We will produce less and will require to import more. The only thing this carbon tax will do is increase the prices on everything. global pollution will actually increase since China will have to pollute more to meet the demand now that we won't produce anything.

 

[Bernnie Federko]

[YOUTUBE]KHoJPUHG83g[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Ho||yw0oD]

I had a 14 dollar hotdog in Oslo. You could really taste the socialism.

Including interest paid, I am looking at spending at least $85,000 on my education across my lifetime... possibly more. If my education was free that could buy a lot of socialist hot dogs.

 

[basketballjones]

Norway proves oil-rich nations can be both green and prosperous - The Globe and Mail

At slightly more than 1 per cent of GDP, Canada’s carbon taxes are the bottom of the pack among Organization of Economic Co-operation and Development countries. Only the U.S. and Mexico tax carbon at a lower rate.

you are far too intelligent to be so incredibly naive to think norway and Canada are even remotely comparable erika

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/14/wynnes-carbon-gouging-plan
This is the main reason Norway’s carbon tax didn’t work — many large emitters were exempted, with the government arguing not to do so would have made them uncompetitive.

yes i know its the sun but it actually has facts to back its premise up

 

[Puma]

you are far too intelligent to be so incredibly naive to think norway and Canada are even remotely comparable erika

Wynne
This is the main reason Norway’s carbon tax didn’t work — many large emitters were exempted, with the government arguing not to do so would have made them uncompetitive.

yes i know its the sun but it actually has facts to back its premise up

That is a great article that explains the issues with the carbon tax.

 

[praktik]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Oz_Mark/status/565875791222013952/photo/1

France is leading the way, and it's not because they have a carbon tax!

 

[wickedken]

But I'm not going to let a general complaint about governments or specific ones about this government stop me from welcoming a long overdue change: we absolutely need this mechanism!

I don't think I fully understand this... you recognize that government may not be able to make "progress" on this, and also that they can be beholden "to business", so how do you think this would actually deliver any change you want? You'll just end up being taxed, with no change.

The whole thing is a con game dressed up for you do-good liberals to let you feel less guilty.

 

[Balzz]

Oilman Becomes Milkman as Norway's Best Jobs Disappear - Bloomberg Business

 

[praktik]

I don't think I fully understand this... you recognize that government may not be able to make "progress" on this, and also that they can be beholden "to business", so how do you think this would actually deliver any change you want? You'll just end up being taxed, with no change.

The whole thing is a con game dressed up for you do-good liberals to let you feel less guilty.

I'm an incrementalist - it means I welcome a carbon tax being introduced by any major party in Ontario. We have a blueprint for a winning carbon tax in BC, and even if we have issues, future governments will fine tune.

We didn't get "great policies" on day 1 in almost any area of government - taking the long view, each has been made better over time by successive governments pushing and pulling policy in different directions. Even if we had an objectively poorer government at the time, since we absolutely need to price carbon into the economy I welcome *any* carbon tax, knowing we will iron out any issues over the years.

But we need the mechanism first!

And notice how I rest my argument in economic terms and the fact our economy has been subsidizing carbon by NOT pricing it in since forever - I dont know what this has to do with "guilt" but can only imagine too many Sun editorials have been read on this subject, for you to cast support for a carbon tax in such partisan and foolish terms.

Which is yet another reason things will get worse before they get better - the very fact environmental issues have become partisan political footballs will contribute to our policy paralysis on this and ensure the worst predictions for our future become true.

 

[praktik]

Useful primer on carbon pricing:

The economic impacts of carbon pricing

 

[wickedken]

Sorry dude, I'm still astonished that you'd let the govt do *something* even if it doesn't accomplish anything in the name of trying, and in the *hope* that it would get better.

Think we're gonna have words at the next Jeff Mills

 

[Puma]

"We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turn, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man.”

C.S. Lewis

 

[praktik]

Sorry dude, I'm still astonished that you'd let the govt do *something* even if it doesn't accomplish anything in the name of trying, and in the *hope* that it would get better.

Think we're gonna have words at the next Jeff Mills

Its shouldn't be this hard to understand: let's get the "carbon lever" in place as soon as we can.

We're going to need to pull it further and further over the next decades and centuries. The sooner its in the better - otherwise we're starting from square one 10 years from now when we finally end the carbon subsidy and start pricing it into the economy.

I have no belief that this government is especially incompetent - in any way that is more remarkable than how incompetent politicians are generally, and fear that partisanship is clouding your perspective on things, making it seem almost unfathomable to you that anyone could ever support anything this government ever does.

If thats the basis of your thinking then you and i are likely having a difference of opinion because I am taking a super long view and you are taking a super short view.

This liberal government will be by the wayside eventually, and I'll be happier if they leave a carbon tax behind them.

 

[wickedken]

That's just it I suppose: I'm not convinced a carbon tax actually accomplishes its goals, plus no confidence in government ability to execute properly, equals a recipe to shift income from working people towards government and companies.