• Hi Guest: Welcome to TRIBE, the online home of TRIBE MAGAZINE. If you'd like to post here, or reply to existing posts on TRIBE, you first have to register. Join us!

No illegal immigrants in N.A U.S & Cdn articles almost parallel same day

Interchange

TRIBE Promoter
What in the fuk???

I found this one on Drudge Report

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/22/060322081757.e1blb1k1.html
"Bush rules out amnesty for undocumented workers"

This one it the Star.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...ageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home
"Don't deport `honest' workers"

Skills are critical for construction
Crackdown could affect thousands
Mar. 22, 2006. 05:22 AM
RICHARD BRENNAN AND TONY WONG
STAFF REPORTERS


A prominent GTA developer has condemned the federal government for wanting to toss "honest, hard-working" illegal immigrants from Portugal and other countries out of Canada.

"There is definitely a shortage of workers in the construction industry right now, and it doesn't matter — from road building to plumber to bricklayers — there is a shortage," Silvio De Gasperis told the Toronto Star yesterday.

"This process should be stopped until they get a chance to review and assess the entire situation," said De Gasperis, one of the country's largest private developers. "Maybe if they did they would realize that the good families, the honest people, should be staying and working."

It has been estimated that there are between 10,000 and 15,000 illegal immigrants working in southern Ontario's construction and hospitality industries; some estimates put the number of undocumented workers across the country as high as 300,000.

Neither the federal immigration department nor Immigration Minister Monte Solberg's office would comment yesterday on whether the government would consider any kind of regularization program. On Monday, Solberg called it "a low priority."

A Star report this week expressed concerns by immigration lawyers and consultants that illegal workers were being deported as the Conservatives abandon Liberal moves toward an amnesty plan.

The deportations threaten to rock Canada's booming construction industry. Construction represents 9.5 per cent of Canada's total Gross Domestic Product and 7.5 per cent of Ontario's alone, according to figures from the Greater Toronto Home Builders' Association.

Yesterday the association reported that new home sales in the GTA were up 11 per cent year over year, as the industry continues to break records.

"As the construction season gears up, any sudden loss in industry capacity will have significant deleterious effects on production," warned GTHBA executive vice president Stephen Dupuis yesterday.

Local companies such as Granolite Co. Ltd., Toronto's oldest stucco specialist, are already feeling the pinch. Demand is so high that owner John Faienza needed another 40 workers last fall, but couldn't find any.

"I went to the union, I went everywhere, but it was impossible to find workers," said Faienza.

Faienza currently sponsors about seven workers under a program administered by the Greater Toronto Home Builders' Association. But that is not nearly enough, he says.

"There is always a shortage of skilled labour, especially since most Canadians don't want to do this kind of job. When they come here they are willing to work hard. That's good for them and it's good for the economy," said Faienza.

Since 2001, the GTHBA has helped the construction industry fill about 300 jobs in Ontario under a temporary foreign worker program, said program manager Silvia Bendo.

Still, concedes Bendo, that's a drop in the bucket compared with the numbers needed.

The GTHBA estimates that construction employs 226,961 people in Ontario, more than the auto industry. It represents 6 per cent of all GTA jobs.

"This could potentially have a very big impact, since there are so many shortages," said housing analyst Will Dunning.

The economist forecasts that housing starts this year will roughly equal last year's before trending down slightly next year.

The issue has been so pressing that the Canadian Home Builders' Association wrote a letter on the issue to Solberg's office last month.

"The labour shortage is a very serious concern for us, and especially in areas such as Toronto," said John Kenward, chief operating officer of the CHBA in Ottawa. "We are hoping there is some sensible resolution to this."

Kenward said his organization hopes to meet with the minister soon.

Kenward said the workers are "real assets to Canada, and even if there wasn't a labour shortage, these are exactly the type of people you want here. They are hard-working, and they have earned a place here."

Fernando Martins, an immigration lawyer who works in the Portuguese community, describes these workers as "stuck between a rock and a hard place."

"My fear is that instead of them seeking help, this may actually drive them deeper underground where they're open to the possibility of exploitation."

Martins supports regularization of those who are healthy, have worked here at least two years, have skills needed in construction, are employed and have no criminal record.

Bendo said she has been getting frantic calls from employers whose employees may have failed refugee claims.

"They may be able to re-hire the deported employee, but the employee would have to wait six months before he can reapply to Canada," said Bendo.

That's not an acceptable solution to De Gasperis.

De Gasperis said Ottawa should consider declaring an amnesty for illegal immigrants from Portugal and elsewhere if they are providing a badly needed service.

He said his own grandfather emigrated to Canada from Italy in 1930 and when he couldn't find any work he "skipped across the border" to Canton, Ohio, and worked in the same brick factory for 30 years.

with files from isabel teotonio

=--------------------------------------------------

Bush rules out amnesty for undocumented workers
Mar 22 3:18 AM US/Eastern
Email this story

President George W. Bush said he was opposed to amnesty or automatic citizenship for the some 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.

Amid an intense debate over the issue among US lawmakers, Bush on Tuesday ruled out amnesty for illegal immigrants but said he favored a "guest worker" program that would provide legal status for workers for a limited time period.


"In my judgment, amnesty would be the wrong course of action," Bush told a news conference.

He said "a whole industry" of exploitation had emerged with workers being smuggled across the US border in dangerous conditions.

"The best way to do something about it is to say that if an American won't do a job and you can find somebody who will do the job, they ought to be allowed to do it legally on a temporary basis," Bush said.

Asked about those undocumented workers who have lived in the US for more than a decade, Bush said: "One of the issues is going to be to deal with somebody whose family has been here for a while, raised a family, and that'll be an interesting debate.

"My answer is: That person shouldn't get automatic citizenship."

Bush's comments came as a showdown looms in Congress over rival proposals on immigration reform and a day after the Mexican government bought full-page advertisements in major US newspapers to set out their stance on the issue.

"Mexico does not promote undocumented migration," the advertisement read in the New York Times and other newspapers.

Mexico supports "a safe, orderly guest worker program" but acknowledges the need for incentives such as housing credits to encourage the return of temporary workers to Mexico, said the advertisement, which was based on a document produced by Mexican legislators, government officials, academics and other experts.

"A guest worker program designed to process the legal temporary flow of workers will allow Mexico and the United States to better comabt criminal organizations specialized in the smuggling of migrants and the use of false documents...," the advertisement said.

The issue has split Bush's fellow Republicans in Congress, some of whom have pushed for strict enforcement measures on the US-Mexico border without providing the possibility of legalizing those undocumented workers already settled in the United States.

The Senate Judiciary Committee has yet to agree on reforms while the House of Representatives has already voted for the construction of a wall along the US border with Mexico to stop illegal immigration, as well as severe penalties for violations of immigration laws.

Bush warned that illegal immigration was "an emotional issue" and if the debate was "not conducted properly," it would "send signals that I don't think will befit the nation's history and traditions."
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Developers should be using unionized construction workers. They charge for it and instead use temps and illegals that they don't pay CPP or EI on. They don't pay works compensation hen they get hurt and they drive the wage prices down.

Its not a shortage of labour. Its a shortage of labour who are willing to slave themselves for $12 an hour doing back breaking labour. This means that you have to increase wages to attract labour this is part of supply and demand capitalism. If you pay more you will get the labour but your still in the belief that the developers and the real estate should collect the money and this is bullshit.

I have NO issue with immigration or with working in other countries on work visas. But this means you go and get the fucking visa or you apply for immigration. Not that you go to another country and work illegally as a criminal.

I used to work in the farming industry and the VAST majority of guys I worked with were from Portugal. These guys know damn well that they are breaking the law and they do it anyway because of the profits involved. I don't pity profiteers, I pity those who play by the book and struggle.


Cheaters don't deserve sympathy, and we're not sending these people back to be tortured most of them (from Portugal specifically) have fucking EU passports for god sake.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
the reason there is a shortage of so called "skilled" labour is because the construction industry has not had to bring up the real wages of construction jobs in light of all the illegal labour they employ.

skilled labour is not in shortage, ive worked in construction most of my life and i can say unequivocally teh vast majority of illegal workers are doing the hard physical work on the job sites, the grunt work. props to them for working hard but its still aginst he law and unfair. the media is trying to portray portugese engineers and electricians toiling away in the absence of canadian skilled people. the unions in toronto have literally hundreds of on call trades people at any time that can be deployed to construction site, but the union secured wage is about $30-40 hourly, which the CEO's dont want to pay, so they find someone to do it for less, and in cash.

you realize that there are litterally millions of people trying to come to canada the honest way and are being sent the message that all you have to do is get here, start working and all will be forgiven if youre a hard worker.

employers get to overlook otherwise qualified people who are going through the proper union chanells in favour of paying cash to illegal labour who work under dangerous conditions, if injured on the job they have zero protection.

it totally udnermines the unionized system that many people fought so hard for in this country.

its sends a terribly contradictory message to the people who want to come to canada. imagine Ford kicking out all their $25 per hour unskilled line workers and bringing in illegal tamils at $15 per hour cash. people would go nuts.

its total subversion of the system and anyone here illegally should be deported to make way for the honest people trying to come to canada.

i do not believe that there are valid reasons for the thousands of portugese refugee claims which soak up valuable resources against more valid refugee cliams from war torn 3rd world nations.

what happens when the housing boom slows down and all these wel paid cash workers dont have jobs? can they apply for EI? can they expect to earn good money working in other underground economies, putting presure on legal workers elsewhere in our economy.
 

Interchange

TRIBE Promoter
hmmm yes good points - yesterday thier was an article and it was like trying to make you feel sorry for them - and i can understand that they came here full well knowing that it was ilegal....
I guess it just makes me mad that it is the exact same issue at the same time that is being disucssed in the states - maybe i am being naive - but it freaked me out when i opend up the star and saw this then opend up drudge and saw the same thing
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
mrs peacock said:
hmmm yes good points - yesterday thier was an article and it was like trying to make you feel sorry for them - and i can understand that they came here full well knowing that it was ilegal....
I guess it just makes me mad that it is the exact same issue at the same time that is being disucssed in the states - maybe i am being naive - but it freaked me out when i opend up the star and saw this then opend up drudge and saw the same thing

Oh I can believe it, and we really don't like the feeling that Bush is doing the same thing we are doing becuase the man is an ass and an idiot. But him describing this as an emotional issue is very accurate.

It pulls at your heart strings to know that all that a person wants is to work and make money and support family. But you can get the seasonal work permit for $50.

See most of these people got there temporary work permit and then simply never left. Either this or they flew in on a visitors visa and ignored and and worked illegally. They don't pay CPP they don't pay EI they don't pay income taxes. They don't have workers compensation in case of injuries. If they fall and break there back who's going to pay for the 2 years of rehabilitation? do we put the injured person on a plane and then fly them home?


Employing people illegally is scummy and wrong. These 'developers' should be reported and dealt with in the courts. They charged full price and then used illegal labour to make more profits.

scum
 
tribe cannabis goldsmith - gold cannabis accessories

man_slut

TRIBE Member
Most developers are cheap and will probably find other ways to find cheap labour... I hear they are trying to bring in a lot of labour from the East coast.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
my dad still works in construction and has to let go of his own team of unionized skilled electricians and carpenters because the competition is under cutting him using illegal labour at half the wages.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
man_slut said:
Most developers are cheap and will probably find other ways to find cheap labour... I hear they are trying to bring in a lot of labour from the East coast.

thats fine, you can bring in labour for anywhere in Canada and employ them equally and legally. What you can't do is hire someone without proving first they have the right to work in the jurisdiction you will be employing them in.

This means that a student visa (only allowed to work on the campus you are attending) does not allow you to work in a restaurant downtown or a construction site. this means that someone on a visitors visa (exceptions for commonwealth live work) is a tourist and not eligible for work. And if someone shows up looking for work with an expired visa they should be reported.

This isn't an issue of Canada first or whitey first. This is an issue that you shouldn't break the law when it comes to labour.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
man_slut said:
Most developers are cheap and will probably find other ways to find cheap labour... I hear they are trying to bring in a lot of labour from the East coast.
alot of seasonal labour is from the east coast, roofers always seem to be newfies, the majority of roofing is done in warmer weather. dudes leave the provence in the fall so the employer isnt on the hook for them anylonger. and this can still be legal work.

sadly east coast labour represents only a fraction of labour on our construction sites in ontario.

there are hundreds of thousands of out of work able bodied men in canada on welfare because of a work shortage but in ontario and alberta we resort to using illegal workers to get the job done before asking people relocate to work. the contractros save on wages, while the government foots the bill to pay welfare and EI to out of work canadians elsewhere in the country.
 

Onthereals

TRIBE Member
[SIZE=+2]Making Latinos Illegal[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]Brown Skin, Yellow Star[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]By JUAN SANTOS[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]A[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]s I write, the US Senate is debating legislation that would make migrant peoples a felonized, legally scapegoated racial and cultural under-caste, a move with deeply dangerous implications for us all.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Maybe it wasn't such a lie, what the German people said after Hitler -- "we didn't know."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Certainly the mainstream media isn't telling you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]But many--Mexicans, Central Americans, and immigrant groups like the Poles and Irish know. As many as 300,000 of them marched together in Chicago recently to oppose these new laws.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]20,000 marched in Washington DC.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]People in Los Angeles know; over half a million people in LA are expected to march against these anti-migrant laws on March 25th. The march is being promoted on all the Spanish language media.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This essay is both a plea and a demand: you must march with us on the 25th; somehow you must take action...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]We won't need a yellow star.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The color of our skin will mark us as suspects, as felons, as threats to "the homeland." Any cop will be free to stop us at any time, under any pretext, to check -- not for dope -- but for our "papers."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]At first it won't seem like much. Quietly, at first, a few of us will begin to disappear, just like some 60 thousand immigrants of Muslim and Arabic descent have disappeared since the onset of the Patriot Act; without a word. Like them, we will become targets of the so-called "war on terror."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]First it will be dozens, then hundreds, then thousands, then tens of thousands.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Mothers will disappear walking to the corner store. Fathers will never come home from work. Children will be left behind, sobbing in apartments empty of food, warmth, money and life. The neighbors will be afraid. The tens of thousands could readily become millions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The picture painted above is nothing but hard headed realism. Legislation now before the US Senate would make every undocumented person in the US a felon and authorize every police department in the country to arrest people on immigration charges.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The size of the Border Patrol would, in effect, increase by 60 times, from the current 11,000 Migra agents to 663,546 enforcers. If each authorized officer in the US arrested one undocumented migrant once every three months, within five years over 11 million migrants would be gone--an ethnic cleansing without parallel in US history.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This is the future they have planned. Certain neighborhoods -- the Gulfton District or the North Side in Houston, Pico Union and Boyle Heights in LA, the San Francisco Mission District -- will be targeted. Almost everyone in them will be considered a "felon," or someone who has aided the "felons." They won't be able to be able to tell us apart. "A Mexican is a Mexican," is what they will say.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In certain neighborhoods concrete barriers will block the streets. Police and La Migra will arrange themselves in hunting parties together. Like clockwork, a police cruiser will turn the corner near your place, once every 60 seconds. No one will breathe. The children will have nightmares.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This isn't just emotional rhetoric. It's happened before; in the Gulfton District in Houston in 1990 and OE95, and in Pico Union in LA in 1990. This is how it's done. The barrio will be besieged, taken over from within.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]They want to build detention camps for us. They are debating it now. They want to label us felons, but deny us a trial. They're debating it now. They want to build a wall -- they want us to die, tongue swollen and hallucinating, without water in the desert. They are debating it now.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]These are the human impacts of planning already underway. New border fences are an integral part of current legislative initiatives.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]On Feb. 6, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announced that the Fiscal Year 2007 federal budget would allocate over $400 million to add 6,700 additional detention beds for migrants, part of a10-year Homeland Security strategic plan, code-named ENDGAME.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]According to a Homeland Security document on the plan, ENDGAME aims to carry out goals "articulated in the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798." Homeland Security is seeking the ability to "remove all removable aliens," including "illegal economic migrants, aliens who have committed criminal acts, asylum-seekers or potential terrorists."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Mr. Bush and the Christian fascists in power have found their scapegoat--and it is us. We are the new Jews in a new Germany in a new century. They call it the New American Century, a New World Order, a "unipolar" Reich--a White America over all.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]E Pluribus Unum: the many eradicated; reduced to One. White. Nation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This is the pretext. They call us "invaders." We represent a "destabilizing factor" for the "nation." They say we are dirty, just like they said the Jews were dirty -- and disease ridden.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]They say our neighborhoods and our culture are "cesspools." They want to keep their culture "pure." They say we "steal" the jobs that they have in fact shipped overseas, and that are nowhere to be found. And now they're calling us "terrorists," just like they called our ancestors "savages."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]After decades the nation's long-suppressed racism is finding an open voice once more, and they are openly strategizing about how to best appeal to the unconscious racist sentiments just beneath the surface among a broader public.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]US Congressman Tom Tancredo warns about us: we (Mexicans and migrant peoples) "need to be found before it is too late. They're coming here to kill you, and you, and me, and my grandchildren."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It's a matter of "spin." One strategist on the right wing web site RedState.org tells them how to spin it. He says that to deal effectively with us our enemies must "focus on terminology."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"People who are in this country without proper documentation," he writes "are foreign infiltrators. These foreign infiltrators operate clandestinely within our country. They are no different than the foreign infiltrators who destroyed the world trade center and attacked the Pentagon. Except that they haven't done anything yet."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Once you have the terminology correct," he continues, "it is easy to define a solution to discourage foreign infiltration. First, treat any foreign infiltrator as a prisoner of war. Turn them over to the military...No hearings, no public defenders, no backlogged courts, no squandering of American tax dollars protecting the non-existent civil rights of foreign infiltrators."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The strategizing isn't empty: these Minutemen fantasies are on the verge of becoming national reality. Republican House Judiciary Committee Chairman Sensenbrenner's HR 4437, The Border Protection, Antiterrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005, recently passed the US House of Representatives. Its most extreme and punitive provisions are being upheld by the Judiciary Committee of the US Senate.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This legislation would do just what the RedState strategist ordered. Key elements of the Sensenbrenner bill include:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]* Making it a felony to be in the U.S. without legal documents. Under current law this is a simple civil violation. Millions of us would be classified as "felons" and subject to immediate detention and deportation, often without so much as a hearing. Access to the courts will be severely restricted if legislation currently under consideration is approved.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]How can they tell who's a felon? The felons will have brown skin. Fifty million of us. All of us will be suspects. What will they stop us for? Anything they please. After all, they already stop us for anything they please.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]* Making it a federal crime to "assist" our people who are without documents.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Those who leave water in the desert to save the lives of migrants would become felons. Millions of teachers, doctors, priests, nurses, attorneys and others who give any kind of help or services to undocumented people will also become felons overnight--and could face five years in prison and have their assets seized by the government.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Giving a ride to someone without the proper "papers" could lead to felony charges. It remains unclear if renting an apartment or selling a car to someone without "papers" would become a felony.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Cardinal Mahoney of the 5 million member Los Angeles Diocese of the Catholic Church has declared he will order his priests to defy this law, if it is passed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]* Expanding police powers over immigrants. Police departments would be granted greater power to check legal status, a move that would increase the number of immigration enforcement agents by 60 times the current number. Local law enforcement agencies would be paid for detaining our people and turning us over to federal authorities.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]These provisions will turn police into bounty hunters, the moral equivalent of Cazamigrantes, and highlight their role as a modern version of the Night Riders that once terrorized communities of color.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]* The construction of five double-layer border fences--totaling 698 miles--in California and Arizona.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Over 4,000 people have died trying to cross the US/ Mexican border since fences[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]in California forced people to cross at points in the Sonora desert into Arizona.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]* Requiring employers to collect Social Security numbers and other data on workers and turn it over to the Department of Homeland Security, which would then verify worker's "legal status" and store the data. All workers would, in effect, need a government clearance before they could have a job, any job.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]* In a related development, the U.S. government announced in February 2006 that it plans to pay Halliburton $385 million to build new "detention centers" to imprison us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This is a chilling and potentially deadly development in a nation that kidnaps and spirits captives to secret prisons in Europe and which runs torture centers in places like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo--torture centers which are condemned and denounced the world over.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In concert with the specter of mass deportations, pogroms, and widespread, race-based scapegoating, new "detention centers" strikes a chord eerily close to concentration camp.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]As one writer questioned "Just what will happen in these detention centers, built to lock away undocumented people whose legal rights have been disappeared, and who have been cast as "hordes," "invaders," and a threat to national security?"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]On the ultra-Right, anti-Mexican shock groups such as the National Policy Institute, Minutemen leaders, and others are calling for our mass deportation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Minutemen's Jim Gilchrist has called for the National Guard to be deployed at the Mexican / US border. Gilchrist's partner and rival in the Minutemen, Chris Simcox, makes the agenda clear, saying, "Oh, Jesus, it is unbelievable. I mean, we need the National Guard to clean out all our cities and round them up. They are hard-core criminals. They have no problem slitting your throat and taking your money or selling drugs to your kids or raping your daughters and they are evil people."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]While there is no mention of using the National Guard under the federal legislation currently under consideration, clear steps leading toward a police state for people of indigenous descent are being advanced--and the record shows that when the Euro-colonialist leadership of the US chooses to attack us, mass deportation of migrants and Chicanos alike is the weapon of choice. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It can happen here. In fact, it has.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Over 1 million of us were deported during the racist "Operation Wetback" in the year 1954, alone.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Before the mass deportations during the Great Depression a Congressman from Texas testified in formal hearings that a strict quota system should be imposed on Mexicans because we are "germ-carriers, inassimilable, a people who are with us but not of us, and not for us." We are, he said "incapable of development away from" a condition of "moral and financial pauperism," and that our influence was causing "the breaking down of [the] social fabric...."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]If this rhetoric sounds familiar, it should. It is the unchanging rhetoric of white nationalism.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]That such rhetoric is being used again by the highest authorities in the US should be cause for deep alarm, especially in the context of the Patriot Act and other dramatic moves toward legalized fascism in the US.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]That the State is acting on this rhetoric to create a felonized, legally scapegoated racial and cultural under-caste calls for uncompromising action aimed at our self defense as a People.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Juan Santos[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] is editor of Mexica Tlahtolli, a Chicano and Native American newspaper in Los Angeles. He can be reached at JuanSantos@Mexica.net[/SIZE]
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
thats the most foolish bunch of sentimental self important bunch of crap.

its takes years to depot people and the vast majority of illegal immigrants are never deported even when caught.

what propaganda.
 

Incrimin8

TRIBE Member
illegal immigrants with a criminal record can stay

illegal immigrants with no criminal record have to go

that's whats happening and its fucked!
 

deafplayer

TRIBE Member
the onus should be on the businesses who are complaining about 'shortages' while 'standing up for' the poor illegal workers who they are exploiting, partly to undermine unions... (it smacks of 'Right to Work' rhetoric..)
I mean, on them, rather than on desperate poor people who try to make it to (North) America... we can certainly afford to provide them with quality of life without hurting 'honest' workers..... take it from the bosses
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
deafplayer said:
the onus should be on the businesses who are complaining about 'shortages' while 'standing up for' the poor illegal workers who they are exploiting, partly to undermine unions... (it smacks of 'Right to Work' rhetoric..)
I mean, on them, rather than on desperate poor people who try to make it to (North) America... we can certainly afford to provide them with quality of life without hurting 'honest' workers..... take it from the bosses
its a 2 way street,

the shortage is not a shortage in any way, most of these workers are unskilled labour working for depressed wages that arent rising because of their presence. its stunting the natural flow of a system where wages should rise for jobs peopel dont want to do.

dont you think the onus should also be on peopel themselves knowingly breaking the law and not paying taxes or contributing in a formal sense?

further more if the contrscution industry didnt use cheap labour the costs of homes and such would rise dramatically whcih would leave many of these workers out of work and facing increasingly difficult labour prospects.

couple that with all the honest people who are wiating in line, it sends the wrong signal.
 
tribe cannabis accessories silver grinders

deafplayer

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
its a 2 way street,

the shortage is not a shortage in any way, most of these workers are unskilled labour working for depressed wages that arent rising because of their presence. its stunting the natural flow of a system where wages should rise for jobs peopel dont want to do.
every transaction is a two way street, and then there are 'endless chains' of relations...... like you can 'demonstrate' how minimum wage laws hurt poor people... its economics, you can make a cogent case justifying anything

If wages should rise for undesirable work... this must be one of hte hugest cases of 'market failure' in history..... or, market theory can also explain why in the observable world the crappiest jobs continually earn the least pay: people there have the least bargaining power... for example, they are illegal immigrants without health insurance, who cant depend on the law to protect them against employers because they are fugatives from it, without exclusive skills or credentials in short supply, etc... desperate

of course they 'keep the cost of housing down' too...... then again, you could keep it down in other ways, instead of by keeping workers' wages low you could keep investors' profits low (ie their incomes) low..... the income of the first is formally institutionally controlled, under organized control, the second is same party that controls the institution, so which should be held more responsible? who should pay? additionally, one has far more resources to pay with in the first place
but besides that, you could say:
if workers are getting paid more, they can afford more expensive housing
of course its also more affordable if you cut labour costs..
so really either way it shouldnt make any difference at all, you could end up paralyzed or with a clear conclusion either way, you could write volumes on it

my point is, if you go back to square one for a moment:

except that one way gives more money to workers
and the other gives them less, and keeps more for employers

I wonder who will likely benefit from each of these possible paths?

Again, its like how Nobel prize economists state that minimum wage laws are so horrible for the poor, omg we're hurting them so much

dont you think the onus should also be on peopel themselves knowingly breaking the law and not paying taxes or contributing in a formal sense?
Isnt their hard, dangerous, insecure (no insurance etc) work at the very "jobs people dont want to do" a very visible concrete contribution?
We're describing an institutional problem that happens to involve institutions formally and consciously controlled... dont you think the onus should be on the responsible institutions that deliberately choose desperate illegal labour (to exploit) at least as much as those workers choose to work illegally? And arguably more so, because their decision-makers arent being compelled into choices by struggling to keep themselves or their family out of poverty, which is a very powerful motivator... it seems its more of a 'free' choice on the establishment's part, since the developers are making the decision from a position of considerably more freedom of action and *security*, from a personal perspective, and hence it is a choice they are more responsible for than the individual worker with considerably less stability and security, considerably more at the mercy of "market forces"

further more if the contrscution industry didnt use cheap labour the costs of homes and such would rise dramatically whcih would leave many of these workers out of work and facing increasingly difficult labour prospects.

couple that with all the honest people who are wiating in line, it sends the wrong signal.
its perfectly true
Further more if the construction industry used expensive labour the incomes of workers would rise dramatically which would boost demand for homes and which would both increase demand and increase incentives to work, thus leaving fewer people out of work
Couple that with all the dishonest dealings in the managing class who make decisions amongst themselves behind closed doors explicitly for their own profit, decisions that affect the lives of many other people who are in a far weaker position, institutionally, and it sends the right moral message, shifting the balance of power and accretion of society's benefits
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
deafplayer said:
every transaction is a two way street, and then there are 'endless chains' of relations...... like you can 'demonstrate' how minimum wage laws hurt poor people... its economics, you can make a cogent case justifying anything

If wages should rise for undesirable work... this must be one of hte hugest cases of 'market failure' in history..... or, market theory can also explain why in the observable world the crappiest jobs continually earn the least pay: people there have the least bargaining power... for example, they are illegal immigrants without health insurance, who cant depend on the law to protect them against employers because they are fugatives from it, without exclusive skills or credentials in short supply, etc... desperate

of course they 'keep the cost of housing down' too...... then again, you could keep it down in other ways, instead of by keeping workers' wages low you could keep investors' profits low (ie their incomes) low..... the income of the first is formally institutionally controlled, under organized control, the second is same party that controls the institution, so which should be held more responsible? who should pay? additionally, one has far more resources to pay with in the first place
but besides that, you could say:
if workers are getting paid more, they can afford more expensive housing
of course its also more affordable if you cut labour costs..
so really either way it shouldnt make any difference at all, you could end up paralyzed or with a clear conclusion either way, you could write volumes on it

my point is, if you go back to square one for a moment:

except that one way gives more money to workers
and the other gives them less, and keeps more for employers

I wonder who will likely benefit from each of these possible paths?

Again, its like how Nobel prize economists state that minimum wage laws are so horrible for the poor, omg we're hurting them so much

Isnt their hard, dangerous, insecure (no insurance etc) work at the very "jobs people dont want to do" a very visible concrete contribution?
We're describing an institutional problem that happens to involve institutions formally and consciously controlled... dont you think the onus should be on the responsible institutions that deliberately choose desperate illegal labour (to exploit) at least as much as those workers choose to work illegally? And arguably more so, because their decision-makers arent being compelled into choices by struggling to keep themselves or their family out of poverty, which is a very powerful motivator... it seems its more of a 'free' choice on the establishment's part, since the developers are making the decision from a position of considerably more freedom of action and *security*, from a personal perspective, and hence it is a choice they are more responsible for than the individual worker with considerably less stability and security, considerably more at the mercy of "market forces"

its perfectly true
Further more if the construction industry used expensive labour the incomes of workers would rise dramatically which would boost demand for homes and which would both increase demand and increase incentives to work, thus leaving fewer people out of work
Couple that with all the dishonest dealings in the managing class who make decisions amongst themselves behind closed doors explicitly for their own profit, decisions that affect the lives of many other people who are in a far weaker position, institutionally, and it sends the right moral message, shifting the balance of power and accretion of society's benefits
a valid point from an economic perspective but its not an economic case in that sense.

anytime work is taken away from a union member and given to an illegal or non-certified/non-unionized person there is a loss to that union. it may be better for the nation as a whole or blah blah blah but at the end fo teh day these are contracts entered in a long time ago that were hard fought by trades people to protect from this exact practice,

so the use of illegal immigrants, or cash paid workers is illegal plain and simple. both the employer and the worker should be responsibe.

i dont bleieve in the exploitation idea so much becuase ive spent most of my life working in construciton dealing with mostly illegal or non-unionized cash workers, and most of them portugese, in construction they are well paid in comparioson to their unionized counter parts, and they take cash home without paying taxes.

WSIB does not distinguish a persons citizenship, if you are injured on the job the employer is on the hook either way for the costs ensued. as well getting a health card is fairly easy if youre working, have a drivers liscence or sin #, none of which require citizenship to obtain.
do you actualy think for a moment that the scores of illegal workers live for this long, with families and have no medical services, no workers comp and no protection?

that is a total fallacy that for some reason the media portrays. about 1/4 of my caseload at work are peopel hwo are here illegally or on expired work permits.

as in the case this original article mentioned they are deporting portugese is because portugal is not some 3rd world despotic nation where these people would face dire starvation and famine back home. its total bullshit. there are literally thousands of portugese who have spent their life savings to apply for citizenship and are held up because of this illegal activity. dont think for a moment the actual peopel are victums of an exploitive society or that they shouldnt be deported if here illegally.

once the kids are born in canada you will nto get deported unless under really serious circumstance like a troublesome criminal record. many people who are illegally here have criminal records in canada but are wiating for years for deportation and appeals.

it doesnt matter if its good economics to have an illgal network of underground workers, its against the basic human rights in this nation, its counter productive to the actual honest workers who get snuffed out thanks to this shit and its drain on our system to find and deport these people when they shouldnt be given such leadway to remain in canada long after their visa's have expired.

business are pressured but remember the majority of costs to build a house stem from wages, not materials. hence labourers at $15 per hour cash vs. $20 taxed and the employer pays EI , WSIB and CPP is more lucrative.

its a mafia of sorts and is kept alive by all parties involved, it is by no means exploitation in the sense you are alluding to, and its not a mattr of sound economics, its a legal and moral issue.
 

atbell

TRIBE Member
"Skilled" labour shortages

It's not just the east that is concerned about labour issues:

"Terms of Reference: Research Inventory

The BC Construction Labour Market Information (LMI) Committee is a consortium that spans the industrial, commercial and institutional (ICI) sub-sector and the residential, or homebuilding sub-sector of the industry. The ICI sub-sector is represented by the BC Construction Association, the Construction Labour Relations Association and the BC and Yukon Territories Building Trades Council. The residential sub-sector is represented by the Canadian Home Builders’ Association of British Columbia (CHBA-BC). In addition, the consortium has representatives of the Industry Training Authority (ITA), BC Institute for Technology (BCIT) and the provincial and federal government.

The BC LMI Committee works closely with the national Construction Sector Council to forecast and validate reliable construction labour demand and supply data for the construction sector in BC. This data helps to inform the development of strategies to address occupational skills shortages.

The BC LMI Committee sees the benefit of producing an inventory of construction sector research. Specifically, the inventory would reflect research that has taken place since 2000 that would be relevant to the BC construction sector. Innovative human resource practices and training strategies that could address skills shortages in BC is of particular interest.

The Committee will engage a contractor to produce an Inventory of Construction Sector Research for the BC LMI Committee. The inventory would include:

• The scope of the research.
• Brief mention of the methodology
• The key findings of the research.
• The date and authors of the research

The contractor will submit the final inventory, in a user friendly format, to the Committee.

Timelines and Budget:

The project will start no later than the beginning of April 2006 and be completed by May 15th, 2006. The project price is set at a maximum of $5,000. Including expenses but excluding taxes. Proposals should be submitted by March 21st at 4:00 p.m. and can be e-mailed or mailed to:

Betty Notar, Chair, BC LMI Committee at bettynotar@shaw.ca
458 Foster Street,
Victoria, B.C. V9A 6R7
250-480-0086
"

I have heard a lot of buzz here on the Pacific side of the rockies that there is a shortage of labour and that it is expected to get worse. I haven't quite seen these results but I know there are a lot of help wanted signs in retail out here (compared to Toronto over the past 2 years).

Two questions remain unanswered for me, is there a shortage of labour and what is meant by skilled workers.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, is there an actual shortage of labour or are there just fewer people who will work for crappy wages. But in a way I think that's what a labour "shortage" is. There are enough jobs around that employers have to accept that instead of doing people a favour by offering them a job they instead have to attract workers. It's going to take some time for people to realize this. I have run into a lot of employers who simply don't understand that it is now workers who are doing them a favour. The shortage seems to mean that there isn't enough labour to keep wages at their current level.

The second issue is the debate about what "skilled" is. In the past an employer could pick out employees that fit the open position exactly, round peg - round hole. Now they are going to be forced to use octagon pegs or even hexagon pegs to fit the round hole and to invest in some sand paper (training) to round the pegs as necessary.

Cracking down on employers who choose to employ illegal workers is an important thing to do as labour shortages become more pronounced. Without tight controls the increasing power of legal labour to demand better working conditions, more flexible hours, and higher wages will push more and more employers to seek illegal "solutions" to their problems. The risk, in terms of penalty severity and likely hood of getting caught, has to be high enough to ensure that employers aren't even tempted to employ illegal workers, immigrants or Canadians alike.

It's also noteworthy that increases in labour costs are yet another inflationary pressure. This adds to the transportation costs (truck, rail, container, bulk vessel) doubling in the past 3 years, the raw materials doubling (check out the graphs on the London Metal Exchange, metal prices were almost stable from 98 - 2002 then they ALL doubled by 2006), and energy price inflation. I remember reading one of Alan Greenspans reports and how he said inflation wasn't a concern because labour prices hadn't jumped, now they seem to be about to do so. Inflation is real, it's been going on since 2002/3. See how the interest rates have moved to accommodate it.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
atbell said:
I have heard a lot of buzz here on the Pacific side of the rockies that there is a shortage of labour and that it is expected to get worse. I haven't quite seen these results but I know there are a lot of help wanted signs in retail out here (compared to Toronto over the past 2 years).

Two questions remain unanswered for me, is there a shortage of labour and what is meant by skilled workers.

The second issue is the debate about what "skilled" is. In the past an employer could pick out employees that fit the open position exactly, round peg - round hole. Now they are going to be forced to use octagon pegs or even hexagon pegs to fit the round hole and to invest in some sand paper (training) to round the pegs as necessary.
good article,

yes, a few generations back canada was in huge demand for bodies to work. not just skilled but unskileld labour aka; work horses. thats how my family immigrated here and most of the unskilled europeans who came over after WW1 and WW2.

there wasnt much science to it, many european states were in abysimal shape after the war and the masses made the trip to the new world where there was lots of work and if youw ere willing to endure the cold weather you could make it.

something changed along the way. even though most of the jobs immigrants wre continuing to fill were unskilled jobs, especially in manufacturing and construction, the tone of immigration changed, you never heard goverment agencies saying "there is a labour shortage" it was now a 'shortage of skilled labour' and how immigrants coming to canda could offer theri 'skills' to everyones mutual benefit.

accept this did not really happen, thousands of professionals from engineers, computer scientists and medical personell were given priority immigration entrance over "unskilled" workers thanks to the creation of a points system where more "skills" gives you more points. (which in a general way makes sense) canada was flooded with educated immigrants at levels never seen before with prior european immigration.

these people were left working the same kinds of sundry jobs or back breaking labour that immigrants of old were doing when they came. because there was a demnad for these jobs to be filled, not for engineers or computer technicians at a time when canadian universities are churnging out record numbers of both, adn the governing bodies of these professions werent cooperating in helping foreign workers get accredation.

immigration at one time was to bring people to canaada to fullfill an economic need. (refugees aside) if there was need for brick layers in the Yukon, workers could be brought in.

instead immigraiton has overwehlmingly gone to big cities where may of these professionals or skilled workers join an already diluted pool of like minded and underemployed people. there is an actual shortage of all kinds of workers skilled/unskileld in the more remote areas of canada. it sucks being out there but this is wehre the real demand is for many of these jobs, but people are increasingly hesitant to go to these areas like the chineese, ukrainians and the like did many generations ago.

its bad enough leaving your country to come to cnada, its worse being outside a large city surrounded by probable rascist cakers. but the sad fact is toronto has engineers, doctors and computer scientists drivign cabs or toiling in factories while secrataries, hotel workers and miners are making tons of loot in alberta or on excavation sites in the interior of BC.

we are quick to provide public housing, welfare or skills training to epople before we dispatch them to area where they can actually use their skills because its remote or too far away, like wise attitudes towards blue collar jobs have turned a bit sour, hence illegal portugese construction workers making 15-20 hourly while thousands of people in the manufacturing belt in Peel region in factories making $8.50 per hour. for some reason there are barely any one from the ehtnic groups representing the most recent immigrant waves working in construction, despite the active demand for physcially able people. some say because asian people think construction is demeaning, i disagree and find it rascist, i see it as a fucntion of a system created that has contorted immigration policy and given many newer immigrants an unfair shake. tehre is a greater white collar focus on traingin people yet there are so many blue collar jobs in demand, they are often outside the core of the large cities, unlike 50 years ago when toronto was being built up you needed people in metropolitain areas.

for some reason we are increasing tuition rates for all schools, yet supplementing training programs to help immigrants build skilsl to fit this alleged demand for "skilled labour". how does this work again?

thats the big part of the problem.
 
Last edited:

Hypnotoad

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
my dad still works in construction and has to let go of his own team of unionized skilled electricians and carpenters because the competition is under cutting him using illegal labour at half the wages.
For all of those saying there isn't a labour shortage, it's that wages are too low, have you ever stopped to think that maybe the unionized workers are charging too much? It's not a one-way street where it is evil developers and exploited illegal immigrants. If the unionized workers were willing to work for the market wage in construction, there would not be a demand for illegal construction workers.
 
tribe cannabis goldsmith - gold cannabis accessories

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Hypnotoad said:
For all of those saying there isn't a labour shortage, it's that wages are too low, have you ever stopped to think that maybe the unionized workers are charging too much? It's not a one-way street where it is evil developers and exploited illegal immigrants. If the unionized workers were willing to work for the market wage in construction, there would not be a demand for illegal construction workers.


No I honestly didn't think that. See when you paid for your new home you paid for UNIONIZED labour wages. So the consumers are happy to pay the amount as specified, thus its the fair market wage.

The problem is that contractors bid and then instead of using the labour they claim to be using they use illegal labour at 1/4 the cost pocketing the other 3/4 in profit and kick backs. Thus they are actually ripping of the customers who paid full price and instead got 1/4 of the quality and value.

It would be one thing if people weren't willing to pay the price but they clearly are. This is a matter of people paying for grade A and buying grade A however they're being slipped grade C illegally relabled as grade A. This is a matter of consumers being cheated and ripped off by developers breaking the laws.

Again there is no shortage of this labour. Just as there is no shortage of legal labour doing landscaping. If the union wages were to high these developers wouldn't be charging the consumers union wages to begin with because the house wouldn't sell.

So the next question...

Should unlicensed electricians be able to work for 1/4 of the price on a job site. Should unlicensed plumbers be allowed to work without the proper supervision of a journey man.
 

Hypnotoad

TRIBE Member
^^^ I've never bought a house, but my guess is someone says, "This house costs $150,000." And then I say, "ok, I will pay $150,000". I do not think there is any discussion of who built the house, whether they were unionized or not. I might care about how durable the house is, but let's be honest, being unionized or not does not indicate quality. Materials and experience are more important.

I go back again to the market value. Developers have a right to try and make a profit, they are taking the risk in building up properties. It's not the end buyers that determine the market wage for a construction worker, it is the labourer and the developer paying them. If unionized workers were willing to work for whatever the illegal immigrants are willing to work for, then there would be no need for the illegal immigrants.

My gut tells me developers use illegal immigrants not to make more profit, but to keep costs down so that they can compete with other developers, who are also using illegal immigrants for labour. There is a market, and I suspect that a family wishing to buy a house choosing between house A for $200,000 built with cheaper labour, and house B that cost $400,000 and used unionized labour, all else being equal, the family would choose house A.

Also, while you say immigrants should get the work visa, have you ever looked at what it takes to get a work visa for Canada? There is no, "I want to move to Canada" option anymore. It is either you are a refugee, are sponsored, or you have a job offer in very specific fields defined by the government. Bring back the option to just move here on your own and take the risk, and I think you will see a lot fewer immigrants risking the underground to live here.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
Hypnotoad said:
^^^ I've never bought a house, but my guess is someone says, "This house costs $150,000." And then I say, "ok, I will pay $150,000". I do not think there is any discussion of who built the house, whether they were unionized or not. I might care about how durable the house is, but let's be honest, being unionized or not does not indicate quality. Materials and experience are more important.

.
he he,

if you just mortaged your life away would you feel beter knowing liscenced electricians built it or some portugese dude that just learned how from a book?

please id love to practice medicine and charge less than doctors, shit i probally could get most of the dianoses right because its usually the same prescritpiosn they give. does that mean i should be permitted to practice, or if i was caught should the law be lax on me beacuse i waanted to work instead of takign welfare, and besides im just doing it beause people are wiating so long for medical procedures??

ha!! what a joke!!!!
 

Hypnotoad

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
he he,

if you just mortaged your life away would you feel beter knowing liscenced electricians built it or some portugese dude that just learned how from a book?

please id love to practice medicine and charge less than doctors, shit i probally could get most of the dianoses right because its usually the same prescritpiosn they give. does that mean i should be permitted to practice, or if i was caught should the law be lax on me beacuse i waanted to work instead of takign welfare, and besides im just doing it beause people are wiating so long for medical procedures??

ha!! what a joke!!!!
You are grossly misgeneralizing those immigrants that would be electricians. I've tried doing just a little bit of wiring myself, from books, and it is never easy. Those immigrants that move to Canada and are electricians are doing it because they ALREADY know how to do it.

The fact is, the current labour system prevents those same immigrants from getting jobs legally in Canada because they don't have "Canadian experience." Now if you want to talk about a load of shit, that is it. The very racist and discriminatory practices of entrenched labour is this country is disgusting. It's not just union workers though, it's the same for architects, engineers, doctors and so on. For all the talk of Canada being open to the world, once an immigrant actually moves here, the reality sets in. Canada wants immigrants, just not the kind that can do the same jobs as those already here. Instead, Canada wants janitors, cab drivers and any other sort of menial worker.

I for one wouldn't care where my electrician came from as long as he knew what he was doing, and I would LOVE for Canada to recognize the medical degrees awarded in other countries because then it might make a real impact on helping the health care system.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Hypnotoad said:
You are grossly misgeneralizing those immigrants that would be electricians. I've tried doing just a little bit of wiring myself, from books, and it is never easy. Those immigrants that move to Canada and are electricians are doing it because they ALREADY know how to do it.

The fact is, the current labour system prevents those same immigrants from getting jobs legally in Canada because they don't have "Canadian experience." Now if you want to talk about a load of shit, that is it. The very racist and discriminatory practices of entrenched labour is this country is disgusting. It's not just union workers though, it's the same for architects, engineers, doctors and so on. For all the talk of Canada being open to the world, once an immigrant actually moves here, the reality sets in. Canada wants immigrants, just not the kind that can do the same jobs as those already here. Instead, Canada wants janitors, cab drivers and any other sort of menial worker.

I for one wouldn't care where my electrician came from as long as he knew what he was doing, and I would LOVE for Canada to recognize the medical degrees awarded in other countries because then it might make a real impact on helping the health care system.

No I disagree, many of them aren't educated and would never pass the tests down here. If they could they would pay to get the legal permit and make 3 times more. Even as an apprentice they would make significantly more.

The illegals are not the doctors or the engineers or the electricians or the tool and die makers. If they were they would be working completely legally elsewhere in europe and making more money doing it, or they would be in the USA working for higher wages. These are the ones who didn't finish any formal schooling and are working the hard labour jobs for less than 10 an hour.

Would you accept fast food restaurants employing illegals? how about call centres?

The farming and construction industries are two of the biggest and they make good money. Why would we allow corporate farms and contruction companies use illegal labour and not road works or automotive manufacture.

This isn't mom and pop illegaly hiring there nephew for a summer, this is guys in benz's who never step foot in the same room as there employees knowingly using illegal labour. Personally I think these guys should be held accountable.

Now you mentioned the cost of a house earlier...

I've never bought a house, but my guess is someone says, "This house costs $150,000." And then I say, "ok, I will pay $150,000".
Lets talk instead about 250,000 condos where you have 400 in a building making for a +100,000,000 building. Why in gods name would we allow these guys to get away with using illegal labour when we wouldn't allow factories.

Again if these people had educations and clean records they could come here completely legally and with ease. Me going to the US took under 20 minutes and cost $50 and I don't even have a degree!

So why are they illegal?
 
tribe cannabis goldsmith - gold cannabis accessories
Top