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Montreal Massacre Death Cult

Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by diablo, Dec 8, 2009.

  1. chooch

    chooch TRIBE Member

    you are nuts!
     
  2. why not

    why not TRIBE Member

    I can't help but think that Lepine would have found some group to hate regardless of societal sexism.

    On the other hand, he may not have gone on a shooting rampage had he not been abused by his father.

    Sexism and misogyny still need to be fought against, but shooting rampages like this are more of a mental health issue, and conflating it with sexism in general distracts from the factors that actually made him the kind of person that would do this.

    Abuse of women is obviously still a problem, but in this case, maybe we should be talking more about the abuse of boys, and the failure of society to treat male victims of abuse, which is ultimately what leads to horrible incidents like this.

    If you want to stop future Lepines, we need people like him to get the psychological help they desperately need, we need to identify and protect people like him when they're still children, and we need to take a long hard look at how society teaches men to deal with their emotions.

    We shouldn't need an excuse like Lepine to talk about violence against women, and if we do, why not the thousands of women who are the victims of actual spousal abuse? This was a mass murder, and is not representative of the vast majority of violence that women face. Most women are not hurt by strangers like him - most are hurt by their friends and family. The average wife beater is a different problem than a man like Lepine.
     
  3. derek

    derek TRIBE Member

    i think it works both ways. boys are still encougared to pursue certai careers as are girls. i can tell you there are still few woman in the transportation industry, altough, it's much improved from 20 years ago. when i was at the bank (even in operations), i was surrounded by women.

    now for my personal story:

    when i started supervising at FEDEX there were very few women package handlers. there were misconception within Management about their ability to physically perform the task of loading and unloading trucks. when we started getting more girls hired, they'd always be placed in positions like QA, scanner, pretty much any non-lifting job. i trained a few how to load and unload, and a few of them actually turned out to be our best loaders. one girl could pack the trailer so tight, the receiving terminals had difficulty dislodging some of the packages (this is a good thing, as minimal movement of packages in the trailer means less damaged goods). i ended up getting her to assist in training new loaders on proper technique. my boss,a detractor, was shocked, and HR was very happy (guys had started complaining it wasn't fair girls got the easy jobs all the time, and they were right, but not necessarly because the girls didn't want to do it; it was partly managements unwillingness to train them based on the misperception they weren't strong enough).

    to make the story even cooler the top loader was kenny glascow's cousin.
     
  4. Dirty Girl

    Dirty Girl TRIBE Member

    but you do have to be lifting 50lb bricks to be equal to the men. yes htere are jobs in the field i could do, like yours, but I cant do the same job as a man, its just not physically possible, some women can, but very many cannot.
    and there werent toilets at the burnt down house that i worked at. so youre wrong! WRONG I SAY.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  5. Dirty Girl

    Dirty Girl TRIBE Member

    lol, yes im also not italian or portugeuse which is another i cannot work in construction;)


    and lmao at dereks story and i hope you spelt glasgow wrong on purpose
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  6. rubytuesday

    rubytuesday TRIBE Member

    Wente is a moron. It's true that the killer was nuts in the head but you can argue that about any person who hurts someone else. That being the case doesn't mean that we don't live in a society were violence against women is still very much alive and committed on a smaller scale frequently.

    She acknowledges that women are still assaulted by their partners more often than men are but brushes it aside because it's not socially acceptable anymore. The Montreal massacre is mainly used to remind people about violence against women, which is still a problem. Her article ignores that almost entirely. She mentions all of the sex workers that have disappeared but says that even more aboriginal men have disappeared. I have never heard this but would like to know where she's getting her numbers from.

    She belittles the need for universal daycare and the glass ceiling effect without mentioning that women still don't receive equal pay. If these things don't convince her that there's still a need for feminism in Canada because more women are in university then she's just stupid.

    It's true that more women are in university then men, and what's already happening in some US colleges/unis is that men are being given spaces despite there being more highly qualified female applicants to balance the proportion of the genders out. There are still inequalities within educational institutions that favor men. The pattern tends to be that women outperform men academically but still end up with lower pay and ranking than their male counterparts.

    Yes, being shot for being a female student is far worse than not having equal pay, not having adequate support to raise a family and work and not being treated equally in the workplace but that doesn't mean there's no need for feminism in Canada, which is what she seems to be implying. And I know a lot of people hear 'feminist' and block their ears but keep in mind it's supposed to be about equality between the genders, not about women winning over men or vice versa.
     
  7. why not

    why not TRIBE Member


    i agree with everything you've written here, but i still think that using this anniversary to talk about these issues is (possibly) counter productive.

    by using an extreme case of misogyny like this, it's too easy for people to distance themselves from these issues. too easy to say that the men around you have nothing in common with Lepine. too easy for people to say he's just crazy (because he was). everyday ordinary examples might serve better to help people see that we're all part of this problem.
    I can sort of see the argument that all violence comes from the same place (abuse), but surely you can see a difference between a man like Lepine and the average wife beater? as horrifying as people like Lepine are, it's the average, seemingly non-psycho ones that are causing the vast majority of the damage (for example, Lepine's father).

    shooting rampages and spousal abuse are two separate problems, and i don't agree that linking the two serves any useful purpose. you can say it "raises awareness", but shouldn't we be aiming a little higher than that by now?
     
  8. dr. claw

    dr. claw Member

    The principal was doing you a favour. Trust.
     
  9. judge wopner

    judge wopner TRIBE Member

    great point,

    i suspect part of the reason some people are wary of the lable feminist is precisely because of attempts to link such an extreme act (murdering so many people in cold blood) vs. the acts more specific to domestic abuse and homocide. both are horrible but we still need make distinctions b/w the 2 because fundamentally they are different.

    a man beating his wife is not fundamentally different that him going the next step up and killing her.

    again, drawing a distinction b/w the events is what makes it relevant. the lepine murders dont appear to represent violence against women other than in a metaphorical sense. but is it in the best interests of feminists in Canada to strongly associate their movement with this act and continue to use it as a rallying cry any more than American's using the murders at Ft. Hood as a rallying cry against all muslims who express any measure of anti-american sentiment (violent or not)

    should we recall the anniversary of Ft. Hood shootings to remind americans that acts of violence against americans at the hands of muslims continues in a host of forms around the globe? does this really put your issue in the right context and help your cause?

    we know what Lepine did, and we know what his own stated rationale was, and yet in spite of the immensity of his crimes, we seem fairly willing to accept (for the most part) his confessions and motives at face-value while downplaying the role mental illness played because it would hamper efforts on the part of politically minded wings of the feminist movement to link their cause and this event so strongly.

    it is sad that we have 2 strong examples of much the same phenomenon of directed mass murder by lunatics, that show us how different our logic is applied to each situation. in fact we could argue that the complete opposite logic was used by many when evaluating both tragedy's.
     
  10. Flashy_McFlash

    Flashy_McFlash Well-Known TRIBEr

    *facepalm* why didn't I see this was Margaret Wente. Yet another in the chain of idiot Margarets (Atwood, Laurence, Thatcher)
     
  11. MissBlu

    MissBlu TRIBE Member


    its really easy for people to distance themselves from violence against women in general.

    why not (no pun intended) use this as an example?

    its easier for women & men to discuss an incident that doesn't effect them personally - where as no one likes to talk about how their friends, sisters, mothers, etc. are verbally/mentally/physically abused by men they know as well.
     
  12. Spinsah

    Spinsah TRIBE Member

    In retrospect, it was so obvious.
     
  13. Flashy_McFlash

    Flashy_McFlash Well-Known TRIBEr

    Yeah it really does have troll written all over it. I guess it's to her credit that her writing doesn't immediately come off as being completely and recognizably bugnuts, unlike DiManno/Fiorito.
     
  14. why not

    why not TRIBE Member


    it's like comparing people to hitler when talking about racism. kind of a conversation killer.

    we need people to be able to look at themselves and their roles in these issues. by using the most extreme examples as rallying cries, you allow people to absolve themselves of their own sins.

    i realize this is a debatable opinion, but it's worth thinking about.

    how many times have we seen people on this board posting racist and sexist shit who don't think of themselves that way, just because they're not beating up black people or beating their wife? it's those people that we need to reach, but by using psychos as examples, these people can feel comfortable distancing themselves from their role in the issue.
     
  15. why not

    why not TRIBE Member

    which is exactly what needs to be changed. i don't see using psychopaths as examples being a way to facilitate the conversation.
     
  16. Vincent Vega

    Vincent Vega TRIBE Member

    1. No, you can't.

    2. Does anyone really need to be "reminded" of this? It's like so many protests that take place to "raise awareness." Usually around issues of which is everyone is already aware.

    3. She didn't say we lived in such a society. (Or didn't. Your double negatives confuse me).

    4. Do you really believe that any of those issues are well-served by being connected to the Lepine massacre at this point?
     
  17. rubytuesday

    rubytuesday TRIBE Member

    Given that this is the 20th anniversary of the massacre I think it's reasonable that it's drawing media attention and that women's rights groups are bringing it up. These were women who would be well into their careers at this point if they hadn't been killed and who had a lot to offer the world.
    It's not like this is the only thing that women's rights groups are doing. There are lots of different campaigns that have been used to draw attention to violence against women. I think it's good to have lots of different campaigns and I don't think it's harmful to remind people that a group of women in our country, in an educational institution, were killed for being women.

    I guess if comes down to whether you think it was a feminist issue to begin with.

    What do you think is the best way to advance women's issues?

    This is a recent campaign used in Britain.

     
  18. judge wopner

    judge wopner TRIBE Member

    should the anniversary of the Air India Bombing be remembered as a horrific tragedy or as a calling card for any act of violence commited by Sikhs against Hindu's?

    do we say "while the events of air india were commited by extreme Sikh's separatists, it is a stark reminder that to this day violence again hindus at the hands of sikh's continues. no matter on what level be it from a school yard brawl to domestic abuse among mix-marrige couples, the events of the air-india bombing remind us that we must remain vigilant in stamping out the violent reactions by Sikh's against Hindu's if we are to ever peacefully coexist.


    yes there are, but this doesnt really address the validity of the current campaign,

    if you are advocating drawing attention by any means nessesary then yes, it is successful, but the attention isnt always a good thing if its met with skepticism and indifference because of the broad and disconnected nature of the event vs. the issue.

    no it is at all. it should be moured for what it was though: a mass murder at the hands of a lunatic. to extend it in such a way without really offering context is like suggesting that Lepine's Muslim (non-practicing muslim father) background was as much to blame because of Islam's spotty record with womens rights.

    expanding upon this, how would you feel if the Islam reformers used this very fact to highlight the violence perpetrated int he name of islam during the anniversary of the Lepine murders? what if we discovered that each of his victums were christian women? could we re-shape your sentence:

    i think it would misrepresent the cause and the event itself, helping no body become more aware of anything in a constructive way. imho
     
  19. Spinsah

    Spinsah TRIBE Member

    I remember I was nine when this first went down and how hard it was to understand that these women were gunned down not just because they were women but because they were women being educated to perform what was traditionally deemed to be man's work. I can think of no other moment where gender based violence was brought into such harsh focus in a Canadian context in my lifetime. We don't memorialize just to "raise awareness around issues of which everyone is already aware", we memorialize because this massacre was a profound loss that was felt across the country and underscored an inequality that we are still trying to right today.
     
  20. judge wopner

    judge wopner TRIBE Member

    do we underscore child abuse by reminding people of mothers who drown their children in bathtubs while suffering from post-partum depression?
     
  21. Vincent Vega

    Vincent Vega TRIBE Member

    Thanks Spence, that's a well-put post and I'll reply when I have a bit more time later today.

    P.S. Fuck you on the "I was nine" thing. :)
     
  22. H2Whoa

    H2Whoa TRIBE Member

    now you are trying too hard. rapidly diminishing returns.
     
  23. rubytuesday

    rubytuesday TRIBE Member

    This made me LOL, something's wrong with me. Maybe if we had universal childcare women wouldn't kill their kids? :p

    I don't know enough about sikh-hindu issues or other issues to judge whether they should use particular tragic events to draw attention to their causes but I agree that sometimes activists go too far in trying to connect particular instances to broader issues and that it can hurt their credibility or turn people off of it.
     
  24. Polymorph

    Polymorph TRIBE Member

    hey, I've worked in contruction/renovations, and, uh, there are often not toilet facilities. Oh, and many of the peeps you'd be dealing with are a bunch of retarded little Tools. (who would make her carry 50pd bricks while they stare at that hole in the ceiling...)
    So why push a girl into this industry? I mean, seriously. Segregate, and why bother?
     
  25. tripleup

    tripleup TRIBE Member

    It's physical, active, dirty work, and they are not raised around tools or mechanically inclined.

    Most men who choose not to pursue those trades & related fields use the exact same reasons.
     

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