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Mixedinkey

WestsideWax

TRIBE Promoter
Aleks said:
^ You make some really compelling points, but the basis of my opinion is that, although mixedinkey is an interesting technological innovation, i see it as cheating. Exactly like playing games with the cheats on, you are kicking ass but, you really aren't doing shit. It takes thousands and thousands of hours to train your ear to mix properly and MIK takes away from those real dj's that mastered their craft. It's a mockery.
oddmyth = general
you = specific

you're both right!
 

oddmyth

TRIBE Member
This type of argument has been going on forever, from painting to photography, from analogue to digital everything so on and so on.


So if you want to call it a cheat so be it, but by that definition everything from digital photography to driving a car is cheating.

MIK is a learning tool just like any other. Most people would (especially in techno) simply trial and error mixes for thousands of hours to find things that match (while you can find some interesting mixes doing this it can be a vast waste of time). Now take that time and multiply it by the fact that you have to stay fresh with the music and know what's hot and you find yourself in a constant state of trying to find those tunes that match.

With MIK you analyze the track and you can see what the key is. This can help imprint what a certain key sounds like, it also helps you learn how to mix harmonically. If all you take away from using MIK is that it shows you what key a song is in, then in my opinion you haven't fully utilized the tool.

I DJ'ed for 10+ years in the bedroom and in the clubs and every mix I ever produced took upwards of 80 hours to put together just to find the right tracks with the right mood for the right time. Now life is much simpler and I spend much less time searching for the right track (they are catalogued by key and colour coded for mood) and more time working on how I am going to structure a mix. To me this is a far more interesting proposition.
 

ChadMIK

TRIBE Member
I can't believe how many people have responded to this thread, it's great fun to read. I recently had the chance to sit down with one of the founding father's of trance, and he said that people hated the piano when it was first invented, and look where it's at now.:)
 

WestsideWax

TRIBE Promoter
Don't watch the tool, the work it can do
Watch the man that behind it


~Gladiators - Looks Is Deceiving~

Comparing the advent of your software to the invention of the piano seems a tad self-aggrandizing.
 

gsnuff

TRIBE Promoter
Aleks said:
It takes thousands and thousands of hours to train your ear to mix properly and MIK takes away from those real dj's that mastered their craft. It's a mockery.
Huh? Should all producers playing live be drumming out their percussion or are sequencers and loopers "cheating" as well? What about beat slicing VST's? If I use them am I cheating on my drum programming?

Beyond the above, I hate to break it to you but (for the most part) mix DJ's aren't the "real" DJ's.
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
gsnuff said:
Huh? Should all producers playing live be drumming out their percussion or are sequencers and loopers "cheating" as well? What about beat slicing VST's? If I use them am I cheating on my drum programming?
Hehe - I actually used to think that because I started out making tracks with Impulse Tracker. After spending hundreds of hours putting in each sound one at a time, I saw things like the "delay" knob on a Reason interface as cheating. To make an echo of a sound, I'd use three or more of Impulse Tracker's 64 channels: 1st channel - sample at full volume, 2nd channel - sample at 2/3rds volume, 3rd channel - sample at 1/3rd volume.

To make a filter sweep - i'd export the channels needed as a .wav, and apply the filter sweep in a another prog, save as .wav, and then play that sample back in Impulse tracker. With reason you just twirled a knob - how unfair!!

Of course I have out-grown that attitude and now understand the utility of making things easier than it was with Impulse Tracker, but there was something about the fact that each track's sounds were all placed individually by the user that made the end result a little more satisfying for me... :)
 

gl*tch

TRIBE Member
the music we like is sample-based.
there's no point struggling w/ notions of authenticity, just as there is no point in trying to keep it in stasis.
See what the tool can do. If it fits great. If not, toss it.
 

Humanjava

TRIBE Member
gl*tch said:
the music we like is sample-based.
there's no point struggling w/ notions of authenticity, just as there is no point in trying to keep it in stasis.
See what the tool can do. If it fits great. If not, toss it.

?Never used a sample in any of my releases so WTF are you talking about.
Lots of techno, house does not use samples either.
 

oddmyth

TRIBE Member
WestsideWax said:
Comparing the advent of your software to the invention of the piano seems a tad self-aggrandizing.
I think you've mistakenly used self-aggrandizing in this sentence. Perhaps you should reread the post.
 
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WestsideWax

TRIBE Promoter
oddmyth said:
I think you've mistakenly used self-aggrandizing in this sentence. Perhaps you should reread the post.
I did, and it still seems to suit. I realize that the quote came from someone else, but referencing said quote in relation to their own software personalizes it.

[floodgates]What I want to know is how there can be "founding fathers" of trance - I though trance d.j.s were just d.j.s who couldn't cut it playing anything else. :D[/floodgates]
 

Taro

TRIBE Member
yeah, it appears to work from my perspective too - I see nothing wrong with the use of the word..
- and I totally agree -
 

Aleks

TRIBE Member
gsnuff said:
Huh? Should all producers playing live be drumming out their percussion or are sequencers and loopers "cheating" as well? What about beat slicing VST's? If I use them am I cheating on my drum programming?

Beyond the above, I hate to break it to you but (for the most part) mix DJ's aren't the "real" DJ's.
Ha! thats totally irrelevant. Dj's essentially all use the same tools to create an experience out of individual tracks. Thats what makes you a dj. Two tracks (channels) and a mixer. It's traditional like that. I know there are other tools, like Abelton, which is live remixing, not dj'ing. So that why i don't think production and quick fixes cannot be compared to using quick fixes (little cheats) such as MIK in Dj performances. Production is behind the scenes and everyone uses different rigs, so it's not so weird to use vst's, because that art form is not tradtional.

I have been dj'ing for 10 years now and i started out as a turntablist, so trust me g i know whats what. :D
 

Aleks

TRIBE Member
kaniz said:
you mean, there is a little gnome playing drums in my drum-machine? neat!
if you were serious about your music as a producer, you would get a live drummer and record your hits.
 
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oddmyth

TRIBE Member
WestsideWax said:
I did, and it still seems to suit. I realize that the quote came from someone else, but referencing said quote in relation to their own software personalizes it.
Except that no one is comparing or referencing it to the software in question. You've simply imagined the reference. Simply because someone works for a company does not automagically make everything they say a reference to that company.
 

oddmyth

TRIBE Member
Aleks said:
Ha! thats totally irrelevant. Dj's essentially all use the same tools to create an experience out of individual tracks. Thats what makes you a dj. Two tracks (channels) and a mixer. It's traditional like that. I know there are other tools, like Abelton, which is live remixing, not dj'ing. So that why i don't think production and quick fixes cannot be compared to using quick fixes (little cheats) such as MIK in Dj performances. Production is behind the scenes and everyone uses different rigs, so it's not so weird to use vst's, because that art form is not tradtional.

I have been dj'ing for 10 years now and i started out as a turntablist, so trust me g i know whats what. :D
DJ'ing has been in a constant state of evolution since it began. There's nothing traditional about it. You may use DJ equipment in your own traditional form which seems to be about ten years old but even the equipment has changed in that time. There were no filter sweeps built into mixers ten years ago, hell when I started DJ'ing FX units had just begun to start appearing on mixers and many could say you could cheat mixes by using reverb or echo/delay to bring tracks in or out.

Obviously no one is going to convince you at this point and I'm certainly not going to continue to try til the end of time. Hell I look back on conversations I've had over the past 10 years and even my opinions have changed drastically and for those who can remember my words from back then, then they know it was a hard fought battle to get me to think differently as well. Luckily I like to reread things and rethink things constantly.

Hopefully over the next year I will be able to convince some people via other means that these are simply tools just like a turntable and a mixer. There's always a fresh perspective to be found as long as you keep yourself open to new ideas.
 

Aleks

TRIBE Member
^I hear ya. I am open to evolution. I use Pioneer Cdj's. Technically that gear is nowhere near traditional. The art form that i practice is traditional, not the means to an end( equipment) Dj'ing is a live performance art; mixing already made tracks together to form a cohesive whole of an experience. Thats the that point i was trying to make to gsnuff. Production is a whole other thing.
 

gl*tch

TRIBE Member
Aleks said:
if you were serious about your music as a producer, you would get a live drummer and record your hits.
this is a normative statement.

you can't gauge someone's "seriousness" by that criteria.
 

Aleks

TRIBE Member
well i was just giving kaniz another perspective to methods of production. Like not everyone uses the same drum machines...
 
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kaniz

TRIBE Member
Aleks said:
if you were serious about your music as a producer, you would get a live drummer and record your hits.
So the 808, 909,303 and all these other drum machines / electronic instruments that played a pretty significant role in shaping electronic music were used by hacks who didn't take their music seriously?

People like Kid Koala are not serious about their music because they are sampling / scratching / mixing records instead of using real instruments?

Richie Hawtin didnt take DE9: Transitions seriously because he was cutting / looping / sampling / re-editing and re-arranging other tracks in the mix to produce new songs instead of starting from scratch and making everything himself?

James Zabiela isn't taking DJing seriously because he's slapping all sorts of crazy effects / etc on top of his sets?

I just have a /really/ hard time buying the "your not a serious producer/musician if your making use of the new technology / tools / trends to create your music". That attitude strikes me as being a little bit stuck in the land of nostalgia.

I love the fact that there are so many different ways to approach creating / playing / producing / mixing / re-mixing / performing music. I love how at Mutek, I saw everything from pure laptop-only sets (that sounded amazing), to acts like The Field which had live drummer / bass (although most TO peeps seemed to think they were boring, I rather ejoyed them).

I don't rank one as better or more serious than the other because of the tools used to create their music. Both Sleeparchive and The Field take their music pretty seriously, but I'd have a hard time arguing that The Field is more serious (or not) simply because they had a real person playing drums.
 

Aleks

TRIBE Member
hay dude, i was just giving an example on how some sick electronic music is created. I believe the more "live" elements in a production the more advanced it is. My point was to echo Humanjava on his comment that not all the music we listen to is sample based. I like alot of the producers/dj you gave reference to, but i personally rank the guys like Silicone Soul who use real live recordings/instrumentation in their tracks higher than a dood with a Tr-909 a mixer and a looper. No dis to artists out there that are about that. I love weird ass loopy, tripped out music too.
 

kaniz

TRIBE Member
Aleks said:
I believe the more "live" elements in a production the more advanced it is.
Might want to check out Skazi then - but only to show that "live does not immediately imply more advanced"

While on one hand I get/agree with what you're saying - that there are many ways to produce music and electronic music, and that it isn't always sampled. I think to make the leap to say that "its more advanced because...", or "you're not serious about music if...." based on how much of it is live vs sampled vs whatever.

But, say - when it gets into the world of using loops for production. ie: buying Minimal Loops Vol 15, then drag-dropping a bunch of pre-arranged loops into your fave sequencer, slapping on a few effects and calling it a day, then I'd fully agree in the "hack!" statement.

But stabs/hits/1-shots/etc - I dont really see much of a problem if any. When you can buy a drum sample-kit that has every bit of the drum recorded with a dozen or so different mics at different angles / distances done with high-quality and better gear than most people could afford (especially new producers) - I don't see the harm into reaching for a good, quality sample pack, loading them up into your drum machine then to town with it.

Just the "if you use X tool then you are not a serious musician" strikes me as the same line of thought as "Real programmers use VI"

Sure, it's easy for a person with no skill to make a basic C# or VB.NET application using a wizard - but a "real" programmer can then take that framework that was generated for them, save quite a bit of time - then make it do things that will leave the non-programmer scratching their head.

So, joe-bedroom-producer takes a sample pack, lays down a simple drum pattern with it and calls it a day. But, mr. 'real' musician comes along, uses the same sample pack - lays down a good drum pattern, adds things to it that Mr. Joe didnt (and doesnt know how..) to do, tweaks things, and adds his own personality/flair to it. Then, he takes the 'extra time' he saved by not having to record every hit, spends it on building other parts of the track / creative process / whatever.
 
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