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massive explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco Texas

Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by ndrwrld, Apr 17, 2013.

  1. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

  2. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    So the best way to destroy evidence they wanted to hide was to engineer the fake hijacking of 4 passenger planes, flying them into their own offices?

    Instead of what, paper shredders and magnets?

    This is an interesting claim I am interested to hear more.
  3. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    America's been enmeshed in the region for 50 years, putting up proxy dictators and arming irregular forces.

    There will be some degrees of separation between a lot of different forces in the Middle East and the Americans - this is how superpowers control, or attempt to control rather, regions of the world they feel vital to the continuance of their state interests.

    Connections like these don't surprise me.

    But what about all the other cash floating around the middle east? The Chinese bribing their way on a slow and steadily increasing footprint, Russia with its huge resources seeking a perch, the sheiks of the gulf funding their pet projects and ideological allies, India seeking to oust Pakistan from Afghanistan and Pakistan doing the same right back...

    There's this complex world America is trying to harvest to it's own ends but not every action can be explained purely by their particular actions - cover or overt. There is space enough for there to be natural, organic reactions in the region from America's pushes - and these are supported both covertly and overtly by an array of actors seeking their own benefit. There is also more than enough room for hubris, vengeance, blind patriotism, religion, careerism and petty avarice from playing a role in events and leading to stupendous errors in judgment - on all sides. The America in your comic book is far too powerful, far too error-free...

    The error made is that the existence of a connection explains causation. The connection itself doesn't matter if it isn't understood in the context of all the other connections attached to the parties in question.
  4. ndrwrld

    ndrwrld TRIBE Member

    • September 10, 2001 - A group of top Pentagon officials cancel their travel plans for the next morning because of security concerns.

    • September 10, 2001 - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announces that the Pentagon has lost track of $2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS of military spending.

    • September 10, 2001 - Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld warns of Iraq's pursuit of WMD's hours before US and British planes bomb Iraqi missile sites.

    • September 10, 2001 - The wife of David Kovalcin, an engineer for Raytheon who would be on Flight 11, said her husband woke her up in the middle of the night complaining he couldn't sleep and that he seemed "very distressed" but she didn't know why and he would leave a note for his wife and two daughters Tuesday morning saying "I will miss everybody very much."

    • September 10, 2001 - Former assistant director of the FBI and an expert on terrorism John O'Neill starts his first day of work at the WTC.

    • September 10, 2001 - San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown receives a travel warning eight hours before the attacks.

    • September 10, 2001 - Large number of "put" options are placed on American Airlines stock betting that the stock price would fall.

    • September 10, 2001 - The Massachusetts Urban Search and Rescue Task Force -- one of the first teams deployed to the WTC -- arrives late in the evening and goes into action the following morning on 9/11 according to task force member Tom Kenney on a Dan Rather taped interview that aired on Sept. 13th.

    • September 10, 2001 - Officials shut down flights at Newark International Airport for 35 minutes because of a fire.

    • September 10, 2001 - Osama Bin Laden reportedly undergoes kidney dialysis at a Pakistani military hospital in which a "secret team" replaces the regular urology staff.

    • September 10, 2001 - Pentagon medic Matt Rosenberg is on the phone with the FBI talking about who has command of the MASCAL emergency plane crash plan if a plane hits the Pentagon.

    • September 10, 2001 - U.S. OK’d plan to topple the Taliban and expel Osama bin Laden from Afghanistan.

    • September 10, 2001 - The Washington Times publishes an article about an exercise study by the Army School of Advanced Military Studies (SAMS) about an enforcement plan for an Israeli-Palestinian peace accord in which the SAMS officers mention that the MOSSAD has the capability to "target U.S. forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act."

    • September 10, 2001 - A man matching the description of Mohamed Atta and two other Arab men spew anti-American sentiments and talk of impending bloodshed at a Daytona Beach, FL strip club and spent $200-300 apiece on drinks and lap dances and a copy of the Quran was left at the bar along with a business card left by one of the men.

    • September 10, 2001 - Ex. CIA-director, former President, and President Bush's Dad, George H.W. Bush, meets with one of Osama Bin Laden's brothers at a Carlyle business conference in Washington D.C.

    Raytheon Employees were on every 9/11 flight that hit a target?

    Flight 11:
    Peter Gay was Raytheon’s Vice President of Operations for Electronic Systems and had been on special assignment to a company office in El Segundo, Calif.

    This division is one of two divisions making the Global Hawk. (ISR Journal, 3/02)

    Kenneth Waldie was a senior quality control engineer for Raytheon’s electronic systems.

    David Kovalcin was a senior mechanical engineer for Raytheon’s electronic systems.

    Flight 175:
    Herbert Homer was a corporate executive working with the Department of Defense.

    And for some very strange reasons he was listed for several days as having died in the while working in the Pentagon.

    Flight 77:
    Stanley Hall was director of program management for Raytheon Electronics Warfare.
    One Raytheon colleague calls him "our dean of electronic warfare."
    Latest World & National News & Headlines - USATODAY.com...

    Charles S. Falkenberg:
    He worked on "EOS Webster" a mapping system which provides Landsat Images, which are part of the mapping system for the Global Hawk technology.

    Raytheon is working on Global Hawk piloltless aircraft program.

    Now, if this is not coincidental enough for you:
    What are the odds that Raytheon also had one office in the WTC2?
    (AP, 9/11/01)
    9-11 Research: Tenants

    It was located in 91st floor in WTC2.
    Raytheon shared the floor with Washington Group and Gibbs&Hill.

    While 13 employees of Washington Group died

    None died from Raytheon and Gibbs&Hill:

    This is rather surprising as after the hit of the second plane only four people survived who were above the 78th floor where the plane hit.
  5. ndrwrld

    ndrwrld TRIBE Member

    sure. same thing happened at the Pentagon.
  6. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Oftentimes I hear how America "created" the Taliban. Well not really.

    They were a natural element in the middle east - a product of historical forces in a land long under the heel of outside powers. The money and weapons that went to them were funneled to them with a Prince of Saudi Arabia - and a host of other people in the region who were sufficiently galvanized by the Soviet occupation to send men, arms and money to Afghanistan. While America certainly played a role - there is certainly plenty of reason to believe the Taliban would have ultimately been sucessful against the Soviets, whose occupation was poorly managed and whose economy was teetering on the edge of collapse. They still would have tons of money and weapons from a region awash in both and filled with sympathetic people motivated to help them.

    The Taliban were not "created" by the Americans, they were used when it was found convenient and discarded when that need expired with the retreating Soviets. They were an organic cultural product of the region's history - and I don't see that things would have been all that different if Charlie Wilson and everyone stayed home... America still would have had a footprint all over the middle east, George Bush the chickenhawk wanted to show off the giant American cock and there still would have been plenty of reason for them to turn their eye towards America, even if they weren't feeling like spurned lovers after being used....
  7. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    I think a list like this could be made with nearly any event given enough time. All you have to do is look long enough and cherry pick the connections you like.

    A lot of this is rehashing some long debunked points - so there is some bullshit in there long with some stuff I might need to look up with some time... A small point of fact, Raytheon does have 79,000 employees with a travel focus in the NorthEast, so the fact raytheon empoyees were on every plane does not - itself - seem like a remarkable fact.

    It is a seductive format, the list of "really strange" things that, on their own, may not mean much - but, cmon, I mean, read the list! AS IF it wasn't an inside job!

    I'm not sure that this appeal will get processed by all those who read this - but maybe in you inner mind, forget that this is praktik, the guy who buys all the lies and busies himself getting in the way letting the people know about it all - just pretend this post came to you after a long meditation session, like some ineffable fragment of the universe that materialized from nothingness...a spontaneous thought to consider!
  8. NemIsis

    NemIsis TRIBE Member

    Weirdly enough, I was just checking online to see what sources you might post. I was just reading this when you copied and pasted it here. Come on.

    Raytheon Employees were on every 9/11 flight that hit a target? - Democratic Underground
  9. ndrwrld

    ndrwrld TRIBE Member

    okay, what's your next question ?
  10. ndrwrld

    ndrwrld TRIBE Member

    are you bothered with the fact i'm no longer taking what main stream media says is the truth when it comes to tragic events in America ( especially when larger than life companies have benefited with immense multi million dollar contracts, key ' witnesses ' or people who are holding anti government info meet with coincidental deaths )?
    i wasn't there, so i don't have first hand knowledge of the facts.
    but i'm more than capable in seeing things are very much not what they seem.
    internet warrior i am not. am i seeing a trend ? yup.
    will it get worse ? you betcha.
  11. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Nope actually we're all counter culture here bro - same team, just some of us have taken to a divisive world view that puts them at conflict with a lot of like-minded people, in addition to the Bad Guys we both share a dislike for. The conspiracy enthusiast sees enemies where none need exist.

    We're all anti-imperialist, anti-Ruthless capitalism, anti-drug war type people.

    So you hating on those guys doesn't bother me, nor does you hating on the MSM. Hating on American wars? Sign me the fuck up!

    Hate on system-wide inequality? Fuck man I'm there with ya!

    The main issue with me isn't what you hate it's how you hate it... We end up missing the lessons of history when we explain events through the wrong vectors. 9/11 happens? America did it to itself. War in Iraq going badly? That's just what the Americans WANT you to think... America created the Taliban! The giant engine of this conspiracy theory is American driven, - this is where everyone comes to speak, where everyone gets their 9/11 book published, where all the energy is. I think its no accident that conspiracy theory is hopelessly navel-gazing American myopia - all things can be explained through their connection to American actions.

    The ironic thing is 9/11 DID happen cause of American actions - it was classic "blowback"! But blowback involves an independent antagonist, and that doesn't happen...
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  12. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    "confirming signals" eh? Is that considered evidence or proof? I don't think that would hold up in a court of law, let alone the court of Praktik.

    I have read through all of the articles you posted, and, rather than presenting any evidence that he was responsible, those articles confirmed to me that he was not involved. It took almost a year before he kind of said "uhhh... yeah sure it was me!... I guess... " (paraphrased of course). And that's only if you take it at face value that the source that supposedly said that thing was actually Bin Laden. There is no way to prove it was. If there is, please go ahead and do so.

    Really Praktik. You have extremely high standards that you expect "conspiracy theorists" to uphold when presenting information or speculating on different ideas. However, you have no ability to hold up your end of the bargain and meet those same expectations. Your sources are as sketchy as anyone else's. Your opinions are no more valid. You have no proof that what you fundamentally believe is any more than a blind faith in smoke & mirrors, and your condescending attitude towards the 'other' (and YOU are creating the division, to be clear), is really unfounded.

    When you say "some of us have taken to a divisive world view that puts them at conflict with a lot of like-minded people", you are speaking about yourself. It seems to bother you that more & more people are "going down the rabbit hole". It's not because people are becoming dumber and falling for bullshit. It's because people are finally starting to educate themselves and realize that ALL we have been sold is complete bullshit. It really shouldn't bother you so much, but it does because you have SO much invested into your false worldview. And for that, I am sorry.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  13. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    Your constant posts across many forums that conspiracy theorists are all retards reconfirm the fact that YOU are the divisive one.
  14. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    No and no. Youre wrong in both posts. But won't bother putting up any more OBL or AQ stuff - for lurkers there's enough, for you theres never enough!

    Here are some of my posts about conspiracy theorists from my skeptics board as I try to back them off the worst impressions of conspiracy theorists:

    JREF Forum - View Single Post - [Merged] Boston Marathon CTs
    JREF Forum - View Single Post - [Merged] Boston Marathon CTs
    [Merged] Boston Marathon CTs - Page 19 - JREF Forum
    So no maphi, I don't think conspiracy theorists are retards - I think a lot of them can be dicks and assholes sometimes - like you when you run out of arguments (usually right away) you personalize things. Its your MO and its retarded, for sure. But YOU aren't.

    Posts above should show that I have a more nuanced appreciation of conspiracy theorists than other skeptics - and I actually try to actively back them off their worst animus against CTers because that makes us just like them (cause for them we are ACTIVELY evil/agents for the dark side - we shouldn't make the same mistake in return).
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  15. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    No I'm speaking about a political ideology that cordons off everyone who doesnt agree with you into "sheeple" or active agents for the NWO - an ideology that takes events in history and reinterprets them, then defends aggressively any other competing interpretation. In fact, such challenges are a sign the skeptic is either programmed by society and too inculcated with the vision of The Man to see your Truth - or actually working in some downstream capacity for The Man. It's an ideology that places the believer on a pedestal - able to see the truth other's can't -> and it places infidels/non-believers into some place far below the believer.

    This is why conspiracy theory is divisive - because it creates a division between you, the Truth Knower - and everyone else who doesn't yet know The Truth.

    Hmmm.. sounds a lot like some religions we both might know....And its defended just as vigorously, and with the same feeling that attacks on the religious ideas of conspiracy theory are attacks on the religious believer believing them.... This is why you constantly personalize when unable to tangle w/ logics and fact (how may recent posts of yours are about ME, rather than OBL and AQ?). Cause my challenge to your facts is an implicit challenge to your entire belief system.
  16. Persephone

    Persephone TRIBE Member

    Glad to hear that I'm wrong. It wasn't really an emphasized component of my curriculum, but I've been out of the public education system for quite a while now. :eek:

    That being said, the critical thinking skills of the students that I've taught at university level doesn't necessarily indicate that the secondary school system is teaching critical thinking either.
  17. The Watcher

    The Watcher TRIBE Member

    There's no proof that the news has been compromised, who is Dan Rather anyhow? baconpan

  18. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    I think there's probably room for both of you to be right!

    Maybe Nemisis is an unsung hero for critical thinking, toiling away fighting the good fight in a small pocket - while at a higher level, society may still have a lot of work to do.

    The internet can be a depressing place to be but the persistence of familiar logical fallacies permeating a lot of our political discussion is a problem that I see as ever-present and potentially growing (more avenues for dissemination of BS nowadays)
  19. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Dan Rather is the man. Been following him closely ever since the Iraq War fallout and even a bit before then.

    You don't have a monopoly on narratives condemning the media - my side has one too, it's just different.

    We both see problems in the MSM its just for you its a bit more like a vision from anti-commie propaganda, a kind of coarse Pravda-like scripting of the news. For me it's a more systemic - and therefore a potentially much more pernicious view of MSM problems than one where our solution would be simply to find the evil people controlling the news and remove them.

    In my world the problems are not so simple.

    Once again you are displaying the "with me or against me" dichotomy of conspiracy culture. Maybe there are three sides to an issue sometimes- or fuck - many more than that!
  20. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Hey conspiracy enthusiasts, ever go out on a hot date and realize after that this chick totally buys all the NWO lies?

    Don't worry, infowars has you covered!


    Certainly this looks to be an outgrowth of what happens in a community that has adopted a divisive worldview - this is Christian Mingle for Truthers!! Watch out don't date outside the tribe!
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  21. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    Likewise! The only reason you carry on the way you do is that to let the light in a little bit would force you to abandon your entire belief system.

    I challenge you to provide some evidence that OBL is responsible for 9/11. You have yet to do so. None of your sources say anything that would stand up in a court of law.
  22. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    No and No. Remember this?

    Still waiting. Even if you dismiss my evidence you must do so with some actual legwork. It's not enough for you to stand there with your arms crossed and say "I reject it cause there's no way of knowing anything in this world", you have to actually do some legwork.

    Again I say: your move. My moves on OBL are done.
  23. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

  24. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    You have not provided any evidence that OBL was responsible for 9/11. The only evidence you have provided was that he hated America and would have liked to have destroyed it. Was he ever charged with the crime? Nope.
  25. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Take it to the other thread!

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