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massive explosion at fertilizer plant near Waco Texas

Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by ndrwrld, Apr 17, 2013.

  1. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    Hey remember when all of the evidence condemning Bin Laden and clarifying the official story was released putting an end to any and all speculation regarding the events of 9/11? Nope. Never happened. Remember when there was a full an independent investigation resulting in charges being laid against those responsible? Nope. Never happened again.

    Please. Where is the evidence that Bin Laden was responsible? If you can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the official story is 100% true, then I am sure millions of people (and growing) would just shut up. Until then, you should probably shut the fuck up because you know absolutely nothing there, Chief.
  2. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Do what for free, sorry junglisthead?
  3. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    "Shut the fuck up."


    Im not the one making a positive claim. The positive claim was that it was an inside job.

    The smoking gun has never been found - the positive evidence for their positive claim - and the 9/11 truth movement is still in the wilderness as a result and the steam has died down after peaking around 2005.

    I actually don't believe the official story "100%", so would never try to prove that in all aspects. I DO, however, believe it was a legitimate terrorist attack by legitimate terrorists galvanized by decades of American sponsored war and dictators in the middle east who America was happy to have ruthlessly suppress domestic Islamist movements. One day they got bit back. They did not do it to themselves. The towers fell from the impacts of the planes.

    The "official story" likes to claim how they were motivated by pure anti-americanism, and usually they do not connect their own actions to the reaction that bit them on 9/11 (at least in mainstream accounts of 9/11)
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  4. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    Where is the evidence? Proof?

    The only positive claim I am making is that there has never been any evidence to convict Bin Laden of these crimes. He was never charged (yet he was tried, convicted and supposedly executed - although that's a bullshit story too).

    So where is the evidence to back up your opinions on this story? There is none. It's all opinion.
  5. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    DO you guys want to start a new 9/11 thread? we didn't go enough rounds on 9/11?

    Besides arguing 9/11 with maphi and junglist head is like arguing the veracity of Genesis with a creationist...

    Do we want to go back and forth rehashing all the stuff we did before?


    There really hasn't been any new evidence, so won't we just be choosing to re-litigate a religious argument we have already exhausted all potential arguments for?
  6. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    No. Dead wrong. The evidence is there and has been there and you have been presented with it 1000x before, why would time 1001 be any different? You still believe the towers falling was a controlled demolition - so how could I convince you of anything else if that narrow aspect of 9/11 theory that rests on simply-verified scientific principles has been rejected?

    I have no confidence if I took the time to patiently walk you through the body of evidence proving it wasn't a false flag that you would even be able to take it in. Actually scratch that, I KNOW you wouldn't, because I HAVE, and you have rejected it every time.
  7. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    I'm also not sure what would have put an end to this speculation. A pretty clear-cut story like the Boston Marathon is certain to enter CT lore as a demonstrated "false flag" no matter what happens - cause the data available on it is everywhere, thousands of videos, thousands of hours of news coverage, thousands of eyewitnesses. The self-confirming circular nature of most conspiracy theory inures itself to debunking, as pieces of evidence that appear to contradict their theory could simply be placed there by the conspiracy planners to discredit later would-be truth seekers.

    Anyone with the motivation to find a CT theory has more than enough pieces of evidence to anomaly-hunt their way through, and more than enough positioning from the CT community to prevent the introduction of new evidence from changing their committed point of view.

    If people really want to talk 9/11 I would suggest we start a new thread though. I'm just not sure I am sufficiently motivated to patiently re-research and pore over those details with people I am not sure are ready to really put much effort in either.
  8. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    The evidence is where?

    I believe what?

    You have never presented any evidence that would hold up in a court of law proving that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 because there is none. I am asking you to do so, and yet you just babble on about how I would be unable to accept it and put words in my mouth as to what my supposed beliefs are.

    Evidence, please.
  9. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    So are we doing a 9/11 thread?

    Cause then we could, if you like, rehash and go-over 9/11 evidence.

    I am not certain that we are taking the right methodology here, however. Why don't you, for instance, give me positive evidence for who ACTUALLY did 9/11, whichever is the guilty party in your narrative... I'm not sure why I need to go first, why not try making a case with footnotes and actual argumentation, instead of taking pot shots at people like me who do the legwork? Looking back at the WTC7 threads I see long posts with photo evidence and links from me, and then basically one-liner appeals from incredulity from you... not much legwork for your side...

    But this all besides the point, which is a thread on the industrial accident caused by greed and irresponsibility near Waco, Texas. If you would like to talk 9/11 I would suggest maybe starting a new thread maphi, and maybe starting with some positive evidence of your own would be a good start.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  10. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

  11. DJ_Science

    DJ_Science TRIBE Member

    This! When are truthers going to start understanding the burden of proof is on them.
  12. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    DJ_Science - thats exactly it.

    It's easy to anomaly hunt, take pot shots, and frame with personal incredulity - more demanding to articulate a convincing alternative theory.

    In all the talk of the towers falling from a controlled demolition I have yet to come across a convincing positive theory of exactly how the conspiracy planners pulled it off. And this is just the theory - an idea - of how they could have technically managed a full CD of three towers.. I'm not even talking about having any evidence to back such a narrative up - I'm just talking about having a convincing story about it!

    The closest we have come is Barrett's "nano-thermite" and Judy Wood's orbital space beam platforms - both of which offer one aspect of such a story but bring a host of technical issues forward with their ideas and they dont often come packaged in an overall story of how the controlled demolition was actually implemented!

    These are the exception. Most truthers have become that way not from hearing any positive evidence for a conspiracy but rather from reading one-sided negative arguments against the official story.
  13. DJ_Science

    DJ_Science TRIBE Member

    Praktik, if I lived in town I would offer to buy you a beer.

    The things that really drive me crazy about talking to truthers is the constant one-sided appeals to authority and jumping between topics.

    We've seen a great example of the first here. There was a post a few pages back listing all the professionals who question the official analysis. Because they're professionals we're suppose to somehow take their statements at face value. But what about the hundreds of professional engineers and scientists who did the physics modeling of the collapse? Why don't we appeal to them? Just once I would love for a truther to tell me what is wrong in that analysis. This is physics, we can just discuss those facts in a demonstrable way.

    But that brings me to the second - jumping between topics. As soon as you pin them down on something they immediately jump to another detail. How many times have you heard "yeah, that may be true but what about building 7!?" Drives me crazy.
  14. Persephone

    Persephone TRIBE Member

    you mean, the fine art of debate, right? ooh!

    address the propositions of your opponent before moving on to a new proposition. Should be straightforward...

    However, these things that aren't really taught in the public school system these days (I think; I learned this by being part of the debate club only, the closest in-class experience I had was learning how to write an essay).
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  15. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    Oh. Silly me. I thought the burden of proof was on the people making accusations against a suspect. The state accused Bin Laden. Everyone agrees that Bin Laden was responsible, yet, where is the evidence? Was he ever charged? Was any evidence ever presented in a court of law? The burden of proof resides with the accuser, not the accused. Innocent until proven guilty, right?

    I have no idea who ACTUALLY did 9/11. There has been no convincing evidence presented to the world that Bin Laden did it. If you believe that he is responsible, I believe it's your duty to present positive evidence that he, in fact, did do it. I mean, the evidence to back up your claim must be out there, right? So where is it?
  16. agentRC4

    agentRC4 TRIBE Member

    oh SNAP you just "Chael Sonnen" Praktik
  17. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    There are a few questions we need to sort out:

    - are we talking about actually planning and choreographing the attacks
    - or "sponsoring" the same way a CEO maybe funds and gives direction, but doesn't actually DO the work

    Cause I think most people agree Bin Laden was more the 2nd, and KSM was the first.

    Then we could go into his fatwa from the 90s where he declared war on the States, the embassy bombings of '98 and the attack on the USS Cole in 2001 (as evidence of his antipathy to the US and demonstrated ability to reach out and attack its interests) and with respect to 9/11 specifically the various audio and video recordings he released claiming responsibility - but given OBL was more removed from actual particulars we will be looking at responsibility in terms of giving broader direction to Al Qaeda and OBLs central role in organizing that group being less involved in the mundane matters of financing and directing particular elements of the 9/11 plot. I would say KSM was certainly more instrumental in those matters.

    I would suggest that if you want to test yourself and read something that has a different point of view from you (much like I have read William Cooper, David Icke, Alex Jones and various ultra-conservative writers I agree on almost nothing with) then this book, The Looming Tower, would be a good place to start reading what, for you, will be an alternative narrative of 9/11.

    Great thing about this book is the exhaustive sourcing and direct interviews with jihadists close to AQ and OBL - so if you want your positive proof I think this book is probably the one that has the most of that, all collected in one place, than any other work. This article will give you a good summary to start with in any case:

    Al-Qaeda’s Inner Circle by Robert F. Worth | The New York Review of Books

    Are you starting a new thread on 9/11 for us to continue this conversation?

    Now that I've cooperated - how about you?

    What positive evidence for the conspiracy will you be happy to share with a source for me to follow up on?
  18. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Just because you say a thing, does not make it true
  19. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    - Past crimes are generally not generally proof of future crimes.
    - There is no evidence confirming that the person in those videos is actually Bin Laden, and no evidence has confirmed that he "took responsibility" for 9/11.

    I'm not claiming a conspiracy here. I am asking you to provide direct evidence that OBL was responsible for 9/11. If such evidence existed, he would have been charged and brought to trial, rather than (apparently) murdered and dumped at sea. Right? I don't believe you are cooperating on anything here. Just show me some evidence! Why is that so difficult?
  20. maphi

    maphi TRIBE Member

    Exactly! So where is the evidence?
  21. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    - I never said they were, I said they provide a baseline of understanding, a context, which provides explanatory power towards motive - you misunderstood my point completely. Never alleged that this was any kind of evidence for 9/11
    - So you reject the video and audio recordings - on what basis? Are they doctored and plants by the CIA, if so - where is the positive evidence for your claim that the videos are faked?

    That would be a good start for providing any kind of reliable evidence for YOUR case.

    Are you starting a new 9/11 thread for us?

    Do you plan to test yourself and read something from another point of view? That book would be a great start!
  22. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    All around, but you conveniently have an excuse to reject everything that doesn't conform to your FAITH that there was a conspiracy.

    Much like creationists reject any piece of evidence for evolution that doesn't conform to their FAITH in a creator.
  23. NemIsis

    NemIsis TRIBE Member

    ^ @maphi: He just gave it to you. Why don't you read the book and then get back to us. Does everything have to be spoon-fed?
  24. NemIsis

    NemIsis TRIBE Member

    Sorry, pet peeve of mine. Critical thinking and debate is a huge component in the education system today. Of course every school and teacher is different, but for most that is the biggest push in education today.
  25. ndrwrld

    ndrwrld TRIBE Member

    how many Seal Team 6 members are still alive ?

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