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Marko Muzzo

Variant

TRIBE Member
How does this guy get only 10 years? He killed 4 people (3 children) and critically injured two others while drunk driving after having previous minor violations in the past. In cases of manslaughter charges where someone is killed due to the other person defending themselves from an attack rulings of 5-8 years are not uncommon. This guy killed 4 people and will likely be out in 5 years with a 12 year license suspension. The max sentence for drunk driving is life. What do you need to do to get life?
 
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acheron

TRIBE Member
pleading guilty was probably the best decision he could make and it likely played a large part in the leniency he was shown by the judge (and the crown who recommended 10-12)
 

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
Not killing the family would have been a better decision.

do you honestly think he made that decision?

our justice system is flawed, but i think drunk driving cases really highlight just how faulty our intuitions about "justice" are as a society.

we have a vindictive public that wants to see harsh punishment & grieving families that will never get loved ones back, and the truth is the former has noting to do with the later.

as long as we have people driving cars there will be drunk driving. I don't think sending people to jail and throwing away the key is going to help.
 
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DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
Did someone force him to drive the truck? Otherwise yes. I would expect a fully grown adult with (ostensibly) a driver's license to know a likely outcome of his decision to drive in his state.

I'd argue that it probably isn't a "likely outcome", but it certainly is a "possible outcome". I imagine that people are drinking and driving at far greater rates than the accidents that they are at fault for.

But all of that is kind of missing the point. In general our society has a real poor relationship to a better understanding of "free will". I'm near positive that his intent was not to kill those people. I'd also bet that he never intended to drive "drunk". Most likely he had a couple (where he'd still probably be fine to drive) and then his inhibitions were lowered, his will power weakened and his reasoning skills deteriorated and he had another one, which led to another, etc....

Is he responsible? yes. Is he a monster? no. He's a person who made a tragic error.
 

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
to add to that, yes he should be punished, but I think we as a society are doing something wrong if we destroy the lives of people who, while guilty of terrible crimes are not guilty of blatant malice.

Some jail time and a ban from ever driving again, along with community service & repercussions to the family would be a better solution IMO.
 

Variant

TRIBE Member
I'd argue that it probably isn't a "likely outcome", but it certainly is a "possible outcome". I imagine that people are drinking and driving at far greater rates than the accidents that they are at fault for.

But all of that is kind of missing the point. In general our society has a real poor relationship to a better understanding of "free will". I'm near positive that his intent was not to kill those people. I'd also bet that he never intended to drive "drunk". Most likely he had a couple (where he'd still probably be fine to drive) and then his inhibitions were lowered, his will power weakened and his reasoning skills deteriorated and he had another one, which led to another, etc....

Is he responsible? yes. Is he a monster? no. He's a person who made a tragic error.

I recommend you read the details of the case. The weekend of the incident he had been partying in Miami for his bachelor party where he posted photos on social media of how intoxicated he is. On his return to Ontario on a private jet he had continued to consume alcohol. He arrives at 1pm on the Sunday of the incident and goes to a bar and continues to consume alcohol. The incident occurs at 4pm. This isn't a guy who merely had a couple extra drinks.

Muzzo isn't a monster in that he had an intent to do harm but that isn't the only condition under which serious consequences occur due to bad decision making. This guy, like all of us, have lived our entire lives with messaging about driving intoxicated. If he's going to decide that driving a vehicle at 4pm on a Sunday during the summer (busy roads) after what looks like an entire weekend of drinking, which only ceased hours if not minutes before the incident, is a good idea then his punishment should serve as a notice to anyone who considers making a similar decision.

Within our current laws that is what happened. He received the toughest penalty in Canadian history for intoxicated driving. I would agree with you regarding the lifetime driving ban.
 
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Maui

TRIBE Member
If the sentences handed down were what criminals actually served I'd say the sentence was maybe ok, but really he should be in jail for life.

People who drink are the skeeziest always. At best mildly annoying, at worst dangerous to people's lives.


The guy should be in jail just for flying a private jet to his Bachelor party.
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
If the sentences handed down were what criminals actually served I'd say the sentence was maybe ok, but really he should be in jail for life.

People who drink are the skeeziest always. At best mildly annoying, at worst dangerous to people's lives.


The guy should be in jail just for flying a private jet to his Bachelor party.

The fact is he was drunk and got behind the wheel, but what if he was texting, lost, tired, changing the radio or didn't properly maintain his vehicle?

You are the furthest thing from logic with your reactionary posts, you fail to see the entire picture every time you post, take half the story and then become outraged. If a guy gets thrown in jail for weed for 25 years you're outraged, LOL you need to decide do you want to punish or rehabilitate people who commit crimes without intent?

Do you think throwing drunk drivers in jail for life does ANYTHING? Think about the amount of times you've made a mistake or regretted not making the right decision, or the few people you know who have made some questionable judgement then got behind the wheel, because we all know someone.

Should your entire life be ruined because of one error in judgement? We as a society give people second chances, should we not try and rehabilitate and reintegrate back into society? Why do you think it's a good idea to burden the taxpayer by creating lifetime criminals to the tune of $80,000 per year?

Fact is the tightening of laws and increased penalties will never eradicate a problem that has existed since the invention of the automobile. Harsher punishment won't solve the problem but education and rehabilitation may just stop a few from making such stupid decisions.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
A lot of these debates center on your conception of Justice.

Maui is obviously closer to the punitive/retributive model, others here look at rehabilitation and a view of how best to bring benefit to the rest of society from incarceration
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
A lot of these debates center on your conception of Justice.

Maui is obviously closer to the punitive/retributive model, others here look at rehabilitation and a view of how best to bring benefit to the rest of society from incarceration

No he's cherry picking which is why I called him out, to say our justice system failed yesterday is foolish for anyone to say. We all know it's not perfect in every scenario but yesterday a man is going to jail for a crime and doing time that is aligned with similar prior convictions.

if he had been acquitted, which many expected but hoped would not have happened then I would agree with his sentiments.
 

Maui

TRIBE Member
The fact is he was drunk and got behind the wheel, but what if he was texting, lost, tired, changing the radio or didn't properly maintain his vehicle?

You are the furthest thing from logic with your reactionary posts, you fail to see the entire picture every time you post, take half the story and then become outraged. If a guy gets thrown in jail for weed for 25 years you're outraged, LOL you need to decide do you want to punish or rehabilitate people who commit crimes without intent?

Do you think throwing drunk drivers in jail for life does ANYTHING? Think about the amount of times you've made a mistake or regretted not making the right decision, or the few people you know who have made some questionable judgement then got behind the wheel, because we all know someone.

Should your entire life be ruined because of one error in judgement? We as a society give people second chances, should we not try and rehabilitate and reintegrate back into society? Why do you think it's a good idea to burden the taxpayer by creating lifetime criminals to the tune of $80,000 per year?

Fact is the tightening of laws and increased penalties will never eradicate a problem that has existed since the invention of the automobile. Harsher punishment won't solve the problem but education and rehabilitation may just stop a few from making such stupid decisions.


None of those are acceptable. Our society treats driving like it's some kind of fucking joke. The entire licensing system needs to be completely revamped. 80% of the people on the road are driving improperly and should be pulled off immediately.

Hopefully driverless cars will put an end to this bullshit.


p.s. Fuck you. My posts are the truth and reality, you don't like it too bad. And the fuck you even talking about marijuana?
 
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kyfe

TRIBE Member
None of those are acceptable. Our society treats driving like it's some kind of fucking joke. The entire licensing system needs to be completely revamped. 80% of the people on the road are driving improperly and should be pulled off immediately.

Hopefully driverless cars will put an end to this bullshit.


p.s. Fuck you. My posts are the truth and reality, you don't like it too bad. And the fuck you even talking about marijuana?

thank you for easily proving my point, rant rant rant... but nothing substantive
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
No he's cherry picking which is why I called him out, to say our justice system failed yesterday is foolish for anyone to say. We all know it's not perfect in every scenario but yesterday a man is going to jail for a crime and doing time that is aligned with similar prior convictions.

if he had been acquitted, which many expected but hoped would not have happened then I would agree with his sentiments.

I don't disagree that he's making other errors, but fundamentally this philosophical difference is at play.

Much like how in broader politics Conservatives will be rooted in different philosophical conceptions than Lefties, the whole individualistic vs collectivist thing, equality of outcome vs equality of opportunity, etc
 

Maui

TRIBE Member
thank you for easily proving my point, rant rant rant... but nothing substantive

I called out Uber and you tried to argue and what do you know cities around the world have banned them and the rest are scrambling to make them operate like any other business.

I called out those women in the gnomes hi trial for what they were and what do you know the judge just agreed with me.

Did I hurt your feelings calling out drinkers? You prolly are one cause I knew you were flaky from the first day that I met you.
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
I called out Uber and you tried to argue and what do you know cities around the world have banned them and the rest are scrambling to make them operate like any other business.

I called out those women in the gnomes hi trial for what they were and what do you know the judge just agreed with me.

Did I hurt your feelings calling out drinkers? You prolly are one cause I knew you were flaky from the first day that I met you.

Hey Nostradumbass

Do you even drive? Serious question.

Secondly none of what you listed there are victories. You insulted and disparaged women who call out sex abusers as liars, you are anti Uber because you are too cheap to take one and you think that they placed a the 10bln order because they are going under?

keep prophesizing Nostradumbass eventually you'll be right about something
 
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videotronic

TRIBE Member
I called out Uber and you tried to argue and what do you know cities around the world have banned them and the rest are scrambling to make them operate like any other business.

I called out those women in the gnomes hi trial for what they were and what do you know the judge just agreed with me.

Did I hurt your feelings calling out drinkers? You prolly are one cause I knew you were flaky from the first day that I met you.

delete your account
 

Bass-Invader

TRIBE Member
just because punitive justice could be classified as a 'path of thought' doesn't mean it isn't moronic and evil outside of edge cases, or where the implementation completely overlaps with some better justification.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Yep I'd agree with that, I don't happen to share the philosophy of a punitive model.

Understand my post as a logically neutral explanatory attempt to describe why we often have arguments over outcomes in the world of Justice.

At root are incompatible conceptions of what justice should be and differing moral philosophical roots
 
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