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John B. Vital. I have a junglist in me.....

CC

TRIBE Member
to beatnik: it's not one bad night, it's my money to go to school. i don't work all year round. i don't have the kind of cash other promoters do. and i've been having bad nights for the last 2 years now. it's time to give it up, and concentrate on school.

and d-cypher: there are some things that i probably should have done, but i don't think that you understand the market very well. talk to any promoter around and they'll tell you that the scene is not there anymore. i don't know why intimate is doing so well. but i don't plan on sitting down and trying to figure out how to do things like they are. intimate has found a way to be trendy for the moment, but i'm sure that they will have some rough times in the future too. i liked what i was doing, and if i have to in any way compromise my promoting goals, it's not worth doing.

CC
 

mcbee

TRIBE Member
not to be a stick in the mud or anything, but this is a "party review" thread not a "critisize a production company" thread.

losing money and calling it quits for Vital is a really tough thing. now i would hope that most of the above comments are intended as constructive criticism but they are kind of coming accross as just criticism.
kind of hard to take when you are now totally broke and dissappointed, ya know?

have a little tact people.

sarah
 

D-Cypher

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mcbee:
not to be a stick in the mud or anything, but this is a "party review" thread not a "critisize a production company" thread.

losing money and calling it quits for Vital is a really tough thing. now i would hope that most of the above comments are intended as constructive criticism but they are kind of coming accross as just criticism.
kind of hard to take when you are now totally broke and dissappointed, ya know?

have a little tact people.

sarah
</font>

I know this...Last summer I lost several THOUSAND on a party that was unsuccessful...It took me an entire summer of full time work to pay it off. But I still want to do it...just don't have anymore money...I know where it's at, but I just don't think he should give up...I started promoting for a bigger company and i'm learning lots while i'm in school studying to be an engineer...But i tell ya, if i had the support that you do, i'd be on it without question. I am definitely with you and I don't want to seem arguementative, but I want to help...

Respect to it's fullest...

D-Cypher my code
 
CC: I think some of this discussion should be taken offline or put under a more appropriate thread, but you've brought about some important points I'd like to address.

there is a difference between successful and trendy. Intimate is an agent of change. we create trends that other people follow. we are not a trend:

all ages. a trend for years. we were the first all drum&bass company in Toronto to go strictly 19+ for ALL its events. this was in a response to buck another trend: hardcore drug abuse and all its related issues. it was our belief that a shift to 19+ would encourage a more responsible audience and others have since followed.

all night events. again to curb problems caused by serious drug abusers (as opposed to recreational users of course) we broke the all night party trend in favour of 10-4am events. and others have followed.

dark hard music was a trend. Intimate broke form from that and created a niche market for soulful drum&bass that focuses on different sounds. we brought a live (local) drum&bass ensemble for our anniversary event at Una Mas to demonstrate exactly how untrendy we are as far as music goes. we've even utilized live female vocalists which is something unique as well.

big parties were a trend. Intimate scaling back and doing smaller events was a response to us being tired of mega-events and wanting to provide something different for Toronto's drum&bass community. something more "Intimate" as the name of the company suggests. and that's just what we've done. other companies can follow and copy and use the term "intimate" on their flyers etc., but there is only one company that is what it is named after.

it was a trend/paradigm for Toronto promoters to rely on UK drum&bass talent.(John B comes to mind). Intimate broke form and made a move to rely mostly on local Canadian talent, because Intimate recognizes we have a responsibility to help the dnb community establish itself and get the respect it deserves by being more autonomous. you know it yourself that the UK crews don't respect us. well how can they when we're so busy sucking them off we don't have time to build our own local scene? also, if we do import, we will import from areas of the world that aren't trendy and that are as similar in terms of their level of cultural development as Toronto/Canada is (ie US, ie Germany, Finland, wherever). we will import names that people don't know yet, but will know in the future. and if we have some unknown local or imported artist booked and Brockie and Digital are just down the street we'll still pack a venue because the people who follow us are more interested in seeing obscure and unrecognized performers than top 40 headliners.

tired/used up venues were a trend. I don't really need to bring up that Intimate sets trends for drum&bass venues (surface and bside come to mind).

you indicated you had no idea why we are successful. I can tell you straight up. it's so simple. aside from all the "firsts" and reasons both listed and not listed that peers and patrons respect and support us greatly for, the people who run the company live and breathe drum&bass music. we don't "like it" or "appreciate it." we don't think we "know a lot about it." we don't focus on this music one minute and this on the next or spread our attention across many genres simultaneously. we are drum&bass. we are part of the community, because every one of us is involved in every aspect of it from promoting to performing and even to producing. we don't just "throw parties" and play whatever kind of music or book whatever kind of artists we think is "the right thing" at the time or will attract enough people to make a truckload of cash that we don't need. we play whatever we want and we book whoever we want. Intimate is about all kinds of different people, places, and drum&bass sounds. and we don't push whatever our sound is on people or tell them what they should like. we just supply the sound and artists and the environments we believe in and appreciate and let the our audience decide what they should and shouldn't like. if we fuck up, if we fail, that's our failure to create the desire and curiosity in the first place. that's not the scene's failure or the individual's failure. again, there is a difference.

anyway anyone who knows anything about dnb in the city knows that Intimate has set many trends and we have been very successful at creating a niche and establishing itself as a leader in that niche. now. I have already expressed my apologies regarding the poor turnout at your last event. I went so far as to offer any personal or professional assistance I could provide. but I find it very disrespectful to us, the community, and yourself to have referred to Intimate as "trendy" and more surprisingly to the scene/community/culture as "not there anymore." and I think you have made a serious error in judgement to say Intimate will be in for "rough times" just because you had an event that didn't do well.

you can be assured that you don't need to worry about Intimate. the company is going to keep taking risks, it's going to keep people guessing, it's going to keep smashing trends and it's going to keep being as original and creative as possible to ensure that our patrons are exposed to the widest possible sampling of drum&bass music. and the whole time it will ensure that the other people and crews who watch us closely, whoever they are, hear about the success of our events and wonder how we do what we do and WANT to recreate it, because the more companies out there doing what Intimate does the better off we all are.

I truly hope you succeed in what you are doing, and I hope you won't pack it in because your events do have a place and are appreciated. but I also hope that you'll be able to develop personally and socially to the point where you will have the capacity to show a bit more respect and a little more flexibility for the contributors of this community who are taking things forward. because the kind of negativity, predictable arrogance, and reactive abrasiveness (the default personality trend/paradigm that promoters have had for as long as I can remember) are very unproductive traits that I think we could all do more and be better without.

cheers,

-7-
 
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Shintriad

TRIBE Member
^^^

Remind me never to dis the Intimate crew.

Yup, that was one hell of a speech right there ... kinda harsh, but the man said what's on his mind. If I ever write a book about Toronto's scene I'd wanna include that little diatribe, it was an instant classic.

Still, it's too bad about Vital. Those B-Side parties were consistently hype, a refuge in this city. I get the feeling we won't see the end of this company ... maybe it will mutate into something even better.
 
Vital not quitting and mutating into something better: no matter how harsh what I said sounded, that key message is exactly what I hope too Shintriad. it's exactly what that whole post of mine can be boiled down to.

-7-
 

mcbee

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Intimate Productions:
: no matter how harsh what I said sounded, that key message is exactly what I hope too </font>

i'm sorry but your 'key message' sounded condescending and self righteous.
you started off your post by saying that this discussion should be taken to email, and yet you then write an essay about why intimate is sooo great, blah blah blah.

i wanted to refrain from being rude but i can't anymore. i just wish you would stop. having to quit something you love is painful enough....add onto that a large financial loss, and then someone heaping tons of criticism and gloating on you...doesn't feel so good.

so lay off.

sarah
p.s. btw 7, did you ever attend a vital party? just curious
 
mcbee:

what is completely and unavoidably clear to anyone reading this thread in sequence is that I came here to apologize for Vital's loss and offer any assistance I could. what I got in return was someone telling me that what we work hard for, lead in, and what we consistently succeed in is "trendy," that my community is "not there anymore" and that we're all in for "rough times" because one promoters event was unsuccessful.

if someone is going to publicly make inaccurate, inflammatory, and irresponsible statements such as those, I have a responsibility to my company and my crew to correct those inaccuracies.

again, it is my every wish that I did not have to correct someone else's mistake, but short of an immediate apology made by that person, my only course of action was the one I took (whether you agree with it/like how I handled it or not).

so I'll restate for the record because you are obviously a little confused and emotional about what events/statements/actions led us to this point, if not completely ignoring the validity of a logical reaction I had when someone I was trying to help turned around and disrespected my hard work: I am sorry Vital lost money and did not succeed with its last event and is now talking about packing it in. I sincerely hope Vital does not quit. I hope Vital continues holding the events it was previous to this loss because these kinds of events are important to the health of Toronto's community going forward. if there is anything I can do (short of ignoring disrespectful commentary of course), I have left information where I can be reached in previous posts.

even though I do not expect to receive an apology for what was said and how it was said, I will lead by example and apologize if my post came off as righteous or condascending. my intent was to offer a gesture of solidarity and support from one company doing things properly to another, not to aggravate the hurt/pain brought about by Vital's loss on Saturday.

-7-

PS I was at a Vital event (June 2, 2000) but I didn't stay long (not for any particular reason, so please don't read into that). back in Decemeber I even approached Vital regarding a joing project that was never followed up on.
 

Heinz57

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mcbee:

i'm sorry but your 'key message' sounded condescending and self righteous.
you started off your post by saying that this discussion should be taken to email, and yet you then write an essay about why intimate is sooo great, blah blah blah.

i wanted to refrain from being rude but i can't anymore. i just wish you would stop. having to quit something you love is painful enough....add onto that a large financial loss, and then someone heaping tons of criticism and gloating on you...doesn't feel so good.

so lay off.

sarah
p.s. btw 7, did you ever attend a vital party? just curious
</font>
i agree... i was thinking the same thing, but didnt really want to say anything.... but since you got the ball rolling........

Intimate seriously sounds extremely full of themselves... like they're the saviors of toronto drum&bass, or something..

i've been to a couple Vital parties at B-Side.. and they did shit proper... i had fuckin wicked times... most my friends agree..

and we know nobody... nobody from vital.. nobody from this board... so this isn't about kissing ass... Vital just did shit right..

It's sad to see Vital go.. but when Vital comes back... i'll probably be showing up again..

Intimate though.... i've been to one of your events... it was ALRIGHT.. at best.. no complaints though..

but in the end... your pompous post is going to be keeping away from your parties... your attitude is detrimental to the progression of the drum&bass community...

but you probably don't care... you're so high up on your plateau, and i'm just one person...
 
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Heinz: when a company apologizes for a loss and then extends its hand to another company and people like you come on here and say something like what our company is doing isn't good for Toronto's drum&bass community when we've been recognized for our contributions time and again, there's something strange about that isn't there? it just doesn't add up now does it? makes you wonder.......

anyway, it is my choice to show my support for Vital or whoever else I believe is working hard to change things out there. if the support isn't reciprocal, that's acceptable. and if you don't support Intimate because I felt the need to correct some inaccurate statements and you feel that's a problem? well. that's strange, but acceptable too.

Cheers,

-7-
 

Heinz57

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Intimate Productions:
Heinz: when a company apologizes for a loss and then extends its hand to another company and people like you come on here and say something like what our company is doing isn't good for Toronto's drum&bass community when we've been recognized for our contributions time and again, there's something strange about that isn't there? it just doesn't add up now does it? makes you wonder.......</font>
I don't get it... how does that give you the right to be a pompous gloating jackass?

at no point did i say that i was putting down Intimate as a company... its YOU as an individual, and as a representative of Intimate that bothers me..

and if you felt the need to defend yourself against these innacuracies, why did you choose to do it with so little class and etiquette?

come on man, you honestly did come off like you're kicking a man when he's down with your glorifying of self.. and honestly, Intimate isn't that fuckin special that it makes that kind of defense acceptable..
 

R4V4G3D_SKU11S

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Intimate Productions:

even though I do not expect to receive an apology for what was said and how it was said, I will lead by example and apologize if my post came off as righteous or condascending
</font>
I'm with Sarah, I tried to hold off but...

even your apology is self righteous and condascending!

I have had several people mention the same thing to me - I used to think Intimate was doing something fresh and interesting - but from reading alot of what you, Mr.-7-, have said on this board in various threads i nthe past, it's made Intimate come off as some pompous, egotistical, elitist company that everyone should be dropping on their knees and thanking for singlehandedly saving the jungle scene in Toronto (although I know not everyone involved in Intimate thinks this way) ...If Intimate wants some "advice" of their own I'd tell them to jack it down on letting you be their spokesperson...You don't know how much you're hurting yourself...
 

mcbee

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Intimate Productions:
so I'll restate for the record because you are obviously a little confused and emotional about what events/statements/actions led us to this point, if not completely ignoring the validity of a logical reaction I had when someone I was trying to help turned around and disrespected my hard work: I am sorry Vital lost money and did not succeed with its last event and is now talking about packing it in. I sincerely hope Vital does not quit. I hope Vital continues holding the events it was previous to this loss because these kinds of events are important to the health of Toronto's community going forward. </font>
well thanks for your apology, but i'll have you know, i'm not 'confused' or 'emotional' about what is going on.

i'm just pissed now.

you continue with your condescending tone even when apologizing. what a skill!

glad to see you have made it to a vital event (june 2, 2000)...but i see you haven't been able to make it out to the last 9 we have had since then. thanks for the support within the community. you talk of moving toronto's community forward but how can that be accomplished without support within?

perhaps you would like to attend the free party we are having this saturday so you can see for yourself what they are all about.

sarah
 

AVE

TRIBE Member
yeah I was gonna write something too but it seems you all said it for me...........-7- seems to be a bit of a pompous ass, i've noticed it in other posts on this board, but whatever, let it slide

we all have opinions, but they aren't always right...

big up Vital
 
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Kinetic

TRIBE Member
AVE,McBee,basic,Heinz57:

I would like to give an explanation. SE7EN is an extremely intense and passionate individual. He believes in Intimate with every ounce of heart and soul in his body. He lives his life for drum & bass. SE7EN has been partying for years and has studied the sucesses and failures of companies. If you have been to Intimate events you will know that we as a company and individuals are humble and down to earth. His intentions were to give support to Vital and offer any help possible. I understand and see the light in which you read his posts, and I have had many a heated debate with SE7EN myself.(if you can imagine a verbal debate!)
Intimate is about showing love to those people who are doing good things with D&B in Toronto. We are older D&B fans and we try to throw parties that us ourselves would like to attend. I am sorry for any ill feelings.
One Love.

Kinetic
 

Heinz57

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kinetic:
I would like to give an explanation. SE7EN is an extremely intense and passionate individual. He believes in Intimate with every ounce of heart and soul in his body. He lives his life for drum & bass. SE7EN has been partying for years and has studied the sucesses and failures of companies. If you have been to Intimate events you will know that we as a company and individuals are humble and down to earth. His intentions were to give support to Vital and offer any help possible. I understand and see the light in which you read his posts, and I have had many a heated debate with SE7EN myself.(if you can imagine a verbal debate!)
Intimate is about showing love to those people who are doing good things with D&B in Toronto. We are older D&B fans and we try to throw parties that us ourselves would like to attend. I am sorry for any ill feelings.
One Love.
</font>
^^^ now that's class.. respect

too bad none of it rubbed off on your buddy there..

i'm sure you've read SE7EN's longwinded post by now, so i'm sure you understand how most of us saw it as a case of an overblown ego beating down on the less fortunate..

the bottomline, the fatter you let your head get, the bigger target it is for the birds to shit on..

I'll give respect to Intimate... but it seems he expects our adulation because Intimate has done "SO MUCH" for the drum&bass community..

fuck that...

big heads get shitted on..
 
r/k: no need.

h/m/a/b: we all learn from our mistakes. my mistake was offering something here. people see what they want to see and nowhere is that more apparent then here. if you feel I'm a pompous ass because of anything I've said, so be it. life goes on.

cheers,

-7-
 

mcbee

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Intimate Productions:
if you feel I'm a pompous ass because of anything I've said, so be it. life goes on.

</font>


Not when you are representing a company.

Kinetic, respect
 
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Heinz57

TRIBE Member
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Intimate Productions:
if you feel I'm a pompous ass because of anything I've said, so be it. life goes on.
</font>
That's a good attitude to take.. way to be progressive..

When you post under the "Intimate Productions" moniker, do you realize that everybody is seeing everything you write as the overall opinion of the company? Do you speak for Kinetic, Terra, Vise, Ist, and all the rest? Are you their chosen voice?

Do you even understand the ramifications of what you wrote? If it wasn't for Kinetic coming out and being straight up in his post, I'd think Intimate were the biggest bunch of stuck up drum&bass nazis right now..

so what if somebody called Intimate trendy? sorry to tell you, there are people who will show up at your events simply because of the "INTIMATE" on the flyer... you know what that makes you? a TREND.. maybe not the actual company, or the individuals involved in the company... but to your following, you sure as hell are a trend...

it was totally uncalled for you to respond by singing your own praises and portraying yourself as the savior of the toronto drum&bass community..

"Conceit is bragging about yourself. Confidence means you believe you can get the job done." -Johnny Unitas

learn from your mistakes.. admit your misgivings and grow from them.. and then progress...

life doesn't just "go on"... if you go on without learning, you really ain't going anywhere at all..
 

CC

TRIBE Member
let's face it, anything that we're doing, has already been done before (intimate or vital). let's not start discussing which one of us invented the wheel, because the answer is none of us.

at this point, i would like to remind that this is a post about our party, not about intimate vs vital. and please stop the discussion before continues to head that route. conflicts like these will not result in any progress.

CC

on a personal note to seven: keep in mind that you've only been doing these style events for 8 or 9 months. don't start keeping stats on success until you've been around for a good couple years.
 

dr_asymptote

TRIBE Member
I completely agree that this thread should just die out before it does everybody more harm than it should, but as an addendum:

I think we're all fooling ourselves if we think that for better or worse, drum and bass isn't inherently trendy.
 
^ that's a good point. but if something that is created is embraced by people all over the world for more than a decade is trendy, then there's not a lot of things around us that aren't (relatively speaking). I personally see drum&bass as a logical extension of jazz and in turn of percussive breakbeat music that originated thousands of years ago. I don't see that as trendy. I see it as another step in a logical progression of things. if you take any of those steps and separate them from the whole picture, each and every step is nothing more than a trend so I choose to see where something fits into the whole.

I want to say to Heinz/basic/AVE that the reason I easily accept the fact that things I write sometimes offend people, because the things I write are also the same things that get people out to our events. that's why I said "life goes on." not because I don't care. because I know for every one person out there that's turned off, there's another turned on. I'm not in the business of keeping my mouth shut and putting on a show for the sake of my reputation. I'm in the business of speaking what I feel is the truth, connecting with people who identify with what I'm saying, learning from mistakes where necessary, and throwing parties for open, likeminded people who appreciate what we value and offer.

the truth here is that I came here to offer something and then ended up having to correct statements Shawn made that I felt were inaccurate. I was defending something. similar to how you, in turn, were defending something. if we are equal, mature, respectful, intelligent and if we value and consider ourselves to be those things, if I can accept that it's ok for you to defend what you believe in and care about and say the things you've said in response to something you didn't agree with, you should be able to offer me the same flexibility. you don't have a "big head" for defending something you care about using facts and talking to me the way you have. that's ludicrous. you are passionately backing something you care deeply about. as was I. please note the difference.

I want to say thanks to Jim for watching out. I want to again apologize to Shawn for his loss and again reiterate my support for Vital, my wishes that they continue on, and my acknowledgement as a peer for their past accomplishments.

cheers,

-7-
 
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