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Jenin "Massacre" death toll reduced to 56

LoopeD

TRIBE Member
[/b] Jenin 'massacre' reduced to death toll of 56
[/b]

JENIN, West Bank — Palestinian officials yesterday put the death toll at 56 in the two-week Israeli assault on Jenin, dropping claims of a massacre of 500 that had sparked demands for a U.N. investigation.

The official Palestinian body count, which is not disproportionate to the 33 Israeli soldiers killed in the incursion, was disclosed by Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, after a team of four Palestinian-appointed investigators reported to him in his Jenin office.

[Two weeks ago, when European and particularly London newspapers were reporting estimates of "hundreds" massacred, Israeli sources in Washington said they expected the Palestinian toll to reach "45 to 55."]

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan suggested yesterday, in the wake of the Palestinian body count, that he may disband a U.N. fact-finding team that was to visit the camp to determine whether a massacre had taken place.

Mr. Annan was responding to a decision by the Israeli security Cabinet earlier in the day not to cooperate with the U.N. team.
The U.N.-Israeli dispute appeared unrelated to the Palestinian admission there had been no massacre.

The Palestinians had suggested that most of the bodies were buried beneath the rubble of houses bulldozed by Israeli troops. No digging for bodies was taking place here, and there was no stench that could have come from decaying human flesh.

The earlier Palestinian claims had sparked international outrage and prompted the Bush administration to press Israel to accept a fact-finding mission by the United Nations, an organization that the Jewish state regards as having a pro-Palestinian bias.

Mr. Kadoura yesterday showed a reporter for The Washington Times the official Palestinian list of those who died. It contained 50 names. Six additional bodies, he said, had not been identified.

He no longer used the ubiquitous Palestinian charge of "massacre" and instead portrayed the battle as a "victory" for Palestinians in resisting Israeli forces. "Here the Israelis, who tried to break the Palestinian willpower, have been taught a lesson," Mr. Kadoura said.

He insisted that Israel had tried but failed, thanks to the heavy fighting, to destroy the entire warren of homes in the camp that had housed 11,000 people.

The destruction, pictured graphically on television, appeared linked to Israeli bulldozing of the houses from which the remnant of the resistance forces were firing.

In fact, it covers the size of a large football field and constitutes only about 10 percent of the housing in the camp, and a far smaller proportion of the housing in the city, which was largely left untouched by the Israeli incursion.

The figures shown to The Times included 233 injured persons, mainly men. The figures revealed that 18 persons had been injured and one had died after the fighting had ended, the result of accidentally detonating either shells left after the fighting, or booby traps that were set by Palestinian gunmen throughout the camp.

A British expert attached to the International Red Cross said these booby traps were almost identical to those used by the Irish Republican Army.

The British claim suggested to analysts that IRA guerrillas were schooled in terrorist weaponry and irregular warfare, as were many radical guerrilla movements, in Palestinian, Syrian and Iranian training camps in Lebanon.

From behind a desk bedecked by portraits of Mr. Arafat, a string of past "martyrs" and of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, the Palestinian chief official in the city, who is also the Fatah leader, portrayed in an interview the events as another chapter in a long saga of resistance to foreign invaders — from Crusader times onward — that, he said, had made Jenin "the heart of Palestine" for centuries.

The propaganda war continues, meanwhile, in the refugee camp itself. Families whose homes had been destroyed were ordered to sit and lie inside tents pitched near the destruction, to be available for interviews and filming with foreign reporters and photographers. At dusk, with the press opportunities concluded, they returned to houses offered to them in the undamaged city or in the rest of the refugee camp.

Other young men, members of various factions, have been on duty in the camp's narrow streets, eager to conduct foreign correspondents to places where they say Israelis killed militants after they surrendered or had been captured.
Others in the city say the resistance to the Israeli incursion had been carried out by only about 10 percent of the militants who had originally been in the area. Most had retreated into the hills or into city back streets as the Israelis entered the area, they said.
Families living in houses directly opposite the destroyed area have told The Washington Times that Israeli soldiers, who temporarily occupied their houses just before the final battle began, treated them without violence and assured them: "You will not be harmed."
They confined the 36 members of the Abu Khalil family to two rooms, allowing them out one by one, and set up a snipers' point upstairs through two holes in the wall — under a family framed message in Arabic: "There is No God but Allah and Mohammed is His Messenger."
They confiscated identity cards but left them on the table before slipping out during the night.
At the United Nations in New York, Undersecretary-General Kieran Prendergast said "a thorough, credible and balanced report on recent events in Jenin refugee camp would not be possible without the cooperation of the government of Israel."
"Since it appears from today's Cabinet statement by Israel that the difficulties in the way of deployment of the fact-finding team will not be resolved anytime soon, the secretary-general is minded to disband the team," he told reporters after briefing the U.N. Security Council.
Diplomats said Mr. Prendergast told council members that Mr. Annan was leaning toward disbanding the three-member team, which has been joined by numerous advisers. The team, which was to have arrived in Jenin on Saturday, remained in Geneva yesterday.
The Security Council is to take up the issue of whether or not to disband the mission at a meeting today.
The United States put forward the resolution adopted by the Security Council welcoming the dispatch of a U.N. team to find out what happened in Jenin during the Israeli military's attacks.
Israel initially agreed to the idea, but subsequently raised questions over the composition of the team, its scope of inquiry, who could be called as a witness and what documents would be presented to the panel.
Mr. Prendergast said that "with every passing day, it becomes more difficult to determine what happened" in Jenin. U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte said Mr. Annan was considering whether to let the fact-finding team begin its work in Geneva or "simply abandoning the mission on the assumption that satisfactory terms of reference could not be worked out."


Don't believe everything you read.............





:)d
 

Subsonic Chronic

TRIBE Member
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan suggested yesterday, in the wake of the Palestinian body count, that he may disband a U.N. fact-finding team that was to visit the camp to determine whether a massacre had taken place.
Kofi Annan needs to grow some balls. I can't believe that he's going to ditch the fact-finding mission because of one report.

I'm glad to hear that not as many people died as previously reported, but that says nothing about the allegations of civilians being used as human shields, of people being burried under their homes by bulldozers, and of summary executions being conducted by IDF forces.

Shortly after the battle in Jenin, dozens of Palestinians were said to have made credible reports regarding possible war crimes that were commited. I guess we should forget all that right?

Pete
 

LoopeD

TRIBE Member
56 deaths to 33? Sounds like a fair fight to me.

I also am glad that the toll isn't what *Palestinian + leftist* propaganda made them out to be.............





:)d
 
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LoopeD

TRIBE Member
Let me expand on that:

I'm glad the death toll isn't what Anti-Semitist propaganda made it out to be.







:)d
 

MBoy

TRIBE Member
Why does the word massacre appear in quotes? How many people need to die before it's considered a massacre?

The whole thing is a fucking mess.

-D
 

LoopeD

TRIBE Member
Because the Israelis lost almost as many people as the Palestinians. Hence, the term "massacre" in quotes, since massacre tends to refer to something a tad more one-sided..........

I cant believe I actually had to explain that - read the damn thing!
;)




:)d
 
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Subsonic Chronic

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by LoopeD
Because the Israelis lost almost as many people as the Palestinians. Hence, the term "massacre" in quotes, since massacre tends to refer to something a tad more one-sided..........

I cant believe I actually had to explain that - read the damn thing!
;)
Huh??

I think that massacre would refer to an action where innocent people who can't defend themselves are killed. And that is what happened in Jenin. There's nothing in the dictionnary that defines 'massacre' as only taking place when more than x amount of people die.

There's no question that there was fighting between IDF forces and Palestinian militants, but that does not excuse the murder of civilians that also took place. Notice how when innocent people are killed by soldiers they're always "caught in the crossfire".

by the way, what's your source on that article? I checked the major news sources and couldn't find anything that mentionned Palestinians coming to those figures.

Pete
 

MBoy

TRIBE Member
I don't care how one-sided a death toll is.

I don't like the fact that people are dying, on either side. I just have a concern for human life, that's all. Whether 10 people on each side were killed or if 10000 people on each side died, it's just sad that everyone uses words to propogate hatred.

Fucking mess, I tell you. -D
 

Rosey

TRIBE Member
it's a massacre when soldiers kill unarmed civilians in large numbers. it's a battle when both sides are armed.

and looped, implying that people who do not support the israel incursions and occupation of palestine are anti-semetic is so fucking stupid that it makes you look like more of an idiot than you already are.
 

MBoy

TRIBE Member
Early reports said that up to 50 000 people died in the WTC terror.

Final numbers were around 10% of that figure, and I haven't taken time to look that up, this is simply what I recall from all of the literature I've read on the attacks.

It's still an atrocity, it's still murder, and still a crime. Try and see it objectively.

-D
 

Subsonic Chronic

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by LoopeD
Let me expand on that:

I'm glad the death toll isn't what Anti-Semitist propaganda made it out to be.

:)d
I guess I gave you more credit than you deserved up until now.

That's just shamefull.

I could write pages and pages about how wrong you are and how backwards it is for you to make such an implication... but it's not worth my time because YOU STILL WOULDN'T GET IT.

Pete
 
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tommysmalls

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by MBoy
Early reports said that up to 50 000 people died in the WTC terror.

Final numbers were around 10% of that figure, and I haven't taken time to look that up, this is simply what I recall from all of the literature I've read on the attacks.
it actually went all the way down to 6% of that figure (~3000).
 

MBoy

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by tommysmalls


it actually went all the way down to 6% of that figure (~3000).
Thanks for checkin the figures, tommy. :)

343 of them were firefighters. ( source ) I can't get over that. Too powerful for words.

Sometimes people's ignorance boggles my mind.

-D
 

LoopeD

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Rosey
it's a massacre when soldiers kill unarmed civilians in large numbers. it's a battle when both sides are armed.

and looped, implying that people who do not support the israel incursions and occupation of palestine are anti-semetic is so fucking stupid that it makes you look like more of an idiot than you already are.

YEP, SOUNDS LIKE A ROSEY COMMENT!

boo-hoo, you think I'm an idiot? Bawl me a river, think I'll just pop off and shoot myself. By the way, who the hell are you?;)

Anyhoo, where does it say that the 56 Palestinians killed were unarmed?

And my anti-Semite comment was referring to the anti-Jew Arab propaganda machine waving the *Jenin massacre* flag around. In no way did I label the entire cause as neo-Nazi Jew-hating. Course I guess I should have spelt it out for those who have the deductive qualities of an inanimate carbon rod.

But you already knew that; you probably just wanted to see a post with your name on it, no matter what the thread - sort of like many people who look at the toilet paper after they've wiped...........;)

Chronic - I found it through an AP links page to worldwide newspapers. True, it is from an American paper - not sure which one. I suppose this also could be propaganda - though I can see why your news sources aren't dwelling on this kind of mistake/exaggeration/falsehood/misprint - whatever you want to call it.

Again, I'm extremely glad there wasn't more deaths. It just makes me wonder what else is bullshit............

Course the whole situation is still a mess.:(





:)d
 

LoopeD

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Subsonic Chronic


I guess I gave you more credit than you deserved up until now.

That's just shamefull.

I could write pages and pages about how wrong you are and how backwards it is for you to make such an implication... but it's not worth my time because YOU STILL WOULDN'T GET IT.

Pete

Chronic, read my last post. I already said I was referring to the anti-Semitist Arab propaganda blowing this story sky-high. I DID NOT mean to label the entire cause as against Jews, so lets just end that line of discussion right now.

fucking no edit after 5 minutes - DAMN!

Ironically, the press that made the biggest deal of this (outside the Arab world) was the British. Course, they check their stories about as much as they hire actual journalists.........

Rosey, you are a fuckwad. Cheers, mate. You always bury your head in the sand when you've lost an argument? Or are hurling insults in the schoolyard all you're good at?

Man, I cant believe i still engage in these petty little wars. That's almost as "gay" as the Tribe party thread I cant believe I read.............:D




:)d
 
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LoopeD

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by MBoy
Early reports said that up to 50 000 people died in the WTC terror.

Final numbers were around 10% of that figure, and I haven't taken time to look that up, this is simply what I recall from all of the literature I've read on the attacks.

It's still an atrocity, it's still murder, and still a crime. Try and see it objectively.

-D

It was a BATTLE. If the Palestinians came off so badly, why did they have to concoct a story to embellish the facts?

Your example is a bad one. The original figures from the WTC were based on the amount of people possible in the towers at any given time. They're going to give the worst case scenario so no one will be devastated by the actual numbers, but more likely at least a little relieved because it could have been far worse.

Thes original fJenin numbers seem to have been maliciously included in a story that smacks of falsehoods, in order to cultivate more hatred against the Israelis.

Again, the whole thing sucks, and the Israelis are no saints, but lets stick to the facts here.




:)d
 

Rosey

TRIBE Member
if you meant to imply that a pro-palestinian and/or leftist stance was inherently anti-semetic then i stand by my denunciation, you are an idiot and not worth my time.

if you meant something else then you should be more clear when hurling terms like anti-semite around, especially with your track record.
 

tommysmalls

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by LoopeD
56 deaths to 33? Sounds like a fair fight to me.

I also am glad that the toll isn't what *Palestinian + leftist* propaganda made them out to be.............
you shoulda stopped there.






btw, in the future, post the source of articles quoted - it'll give you more cred.
 

Chaos

TRIBE Member
I'm disgusted and most appalled by the ignorance displayed by LoopD and anyone else who would share such a fucking idiotic stance.

You have absolutely no proof whatsoever a massacre did not take place, other than a article written by and for an american newspaper. If you haven't been watching tv at all, you may have missed North American media outlets are almost 100% biased against Palestinians and most Arabs in general. To negate this fact makes everything you say laughable, pathetic, and ridiculous.

Kofi Annan is not calling the fact finding mission at all, in fact, he had to cancel it beacuse Sharon's government decided the
outcome would be too damaging to themselves. If you disbelieve that, I suggest you check out

http://www.haaretzdaily.com
It's an Israeli newspaper actually. Instead of sending some too bit fact finding mission, the UN is going to consider opening a far reaching inquiry which could result in sanctions (ABOUT TIME!). Sharon is afraid he'll be indicted for war crimes, which I strongly hope will happen.


A battle??? Are you fucking stupid, I mean, really? The amout of money Israel spends on it's defence is insane. They get technology from the US that no one else does. So, you have a powerhouse military againt a few gunmen...You call that a battle???

It's an orchestrated SLAUGHTER what the IDF is doing. In fact, the only way the Palestinians were able to kill the OCCUPIERS, was stage a ambush using 10$ bombs and a couple AK47s.

As for accusing anybody who supports the Jenin MASSACRE theory is anti-semite, you, are a waste of space and oxygen. Such ignorance will likely result in someone declaring JIHAD on your stupid ass.



P.S. Jenin isn't going to make Palestinian's or the rest of the world any angrier. That emotion has been far surpassed since the occupation began in 1948.
 
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