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Japan get fastest train in the world, we have to wait until June for Union-Pearson shuttle

Mr. Magyar

TRIBE Member
Way to completely sidestep the issues being discussed.

In order for what would be one of the most expensive, multi-government infrastructure projects in our country's history to be built, there has to be a cost/benefit analysis. In this case, the cost is massive (tens of billions of dollars), and the benefit is marginal (a train that looks pretty but goes no faster than a flight, for an equal or greater price than traditional rail).

What makes you say that the corridor is "incredibly poorly served"? If that was the case, it would be either very expensive or very difficult to transport goods and people along this corridor. A quick search reveals that VIA has nine trains going from Toronto to Montreal on Monday. There are two airports from which you can fly. The 401 is open 24 hours a day. No one else seems to be having a problem.




All kinds of governments have had all kinds of projects at various stages of planning before they were deemd to be unfeasible for one reason or another. The fact that some guy floated a random idea X number of years ago means nothing. See also: Mars One project.
Try again, champ! If you have unlimited time and money, the 401 is great. Normal people lack at least one of the two. Switzerland has fewer people than the Windsor-Quebec corridor, but they can still build high-speed rail there. Same with Belgium. Oh! There are airports? Well, I guess Europeans don't have those since Germany and France developed international high-speed rail links. It likely cost nothing since only Canada has to pay a bazillion trillion dollars for infrastructure. Nice one on Mars One, though. A non-profit is the same thing as a government.
Magyar

Just also for the point of comparisons to Asia and infrastructure there vs what we have here.

If we say that the corridor between Windsor to Quebec City is the most populous corridor in Canada, it's around 1150km and when you throw Windsor/London/GTA/Ottawa/Montreal Quebec and say any community within 50km into the mix it's probably a 15 million person area, max 20 million

Compare that to say this in Japan:
Taiheiy
This is a 1200km corridor of Japan that has 83 million people living in it.

15-20 million is not even in the same ballpark as 83+ million people.
That's nice. Countries that aren't as dense as Japan still build high-speed. Hell, Iran is building one and it's across a desert. Do you not see a problem with Iran getting high-speed rail before Canada?

For work, I frequently used the high speed rail in Japan. I lived in Nagoya, which was nice and centrally located.

I never really knew the distance from anywhere to anywhere because my brain was hardwired for "distance = hours in car x 100km/h" and obviously the trains don't work that way. So it's ~280 to Tokyo from Nagoya according to the article. Interesting.

But I will tell you this. You get on the shinkansen at Fukuoka, which is where is arguably starts, and the entire way through every major city in skinny Japan up to Tokyo (I never made it further than Tokyo), you do NOT see an interruption in urbanization whatsoever. Other people have mentioned the figures, they are, in some way, irrelevant because Japan prefectures and municipalities will arbitrarily draw up their borders and density figures reflect it. The point is, along the high speed rail line, it is uninterrupted, as far as you can see out the window, urban development. (aka sprawl, think the shit parts of Mississauga, as opposed to the good parts of Brampton)

And one stop looks like the next stop looks like the next stop, and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

ANd the density doesn't end at the high-speed rail stops. THen there is a network of trains that permeates down to a point that every person pretty much anywhere can, in no more than a 5 minute bike ride, access a train which will bring them to anywhere in the country, for a variety of $$$. The cost is measured not per ride but per distance, everywhere, at all scales. Oh and as someone mentioned, if you take a leg to an airport the "scale" drastically increases.

What DO they do with all those spent magnetic train tickets?

Windsor to Montreal is a long distance. Forget that no commuters actually go to Windsor; from London to Windsor is just cargo, which can go slowly. The drive from London to Windsor is so boring that it's danerous, but so infrequent that the road is frequently snowed over.

Then there's Ajax to Kingston.. that's another ghost town, except Napanee where they have a McDonalds and a left turn in case you want to go into the no-man's land of Canada's North, which I'll point out is itself 3 times larger than all of Japan.

From Kingston, you can take a poop in Cornwall or turn left for Ottawa, but otherwise there's nothing but a depaneur until you get to Montreal.

I've taken the train from Kitchener to Montreal and it's a pleasant, but slow experience. Note that the shinkansen is not a pleasant experience. It's very akin to an airplane. Via rail: you have lots of space, big windows, leg room, conversation, "time".

Anyway this country is not ready nor needing of high speed rail yet and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Take the VIA from Toronto to Vancouver and it's a tourist destination, because of the awesome scenery along the way. There is no such thing in Japan except blue roofs, cramped streets, and the incessant Daie grocery store chain ads.

-jM
A&D
Yeah, no one goes to Windsor except people traveling to and from Windsor. And cargo can go slowly? That's interesting given just-in-time manufacturing. But hey! Canada isn't ready for it. It's too hard!
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
Is there anything fun to do around Pearson airport? I may take it just because. No flight or anything.

Well they do have cellphone reception there now, and the luggage carts are free instead of a toonie to rent (which you never got back) so the airport has moved into the present. Luggage cart racing!!!
 

I_bRAD

TRIBE Member
And cargo can go slowly? That's interesting given just-in-time manufacturing.
No matter how long it takes to get there you can have a truck arriving at whatever frequency you want, you just control the number of trucks instead of the speed of them
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
Switzerland has fewer people than the Windsor-Quebec corridor, but they can still build high-speed rail there. Same with Belgium. Oh! There are airports? Well, I guess Europeans don't have those since Germany and France developed international high-speed rail links.
Switzerland has a high speed rail link? I'm not going to bust out Wikipedia or Wolframalpha for this; but I'm just kind of wondering where a Swiss rail would go? From Zurich to Zurich? You do realize the entire size of Switzerland, whichever way you measure it, is.... Well as an exercise for the reader, why don't you go measure it.

Yeah, no one goes to Windsor except people traveling to and from Windsor. And cargo can go slowly? That's interesting given just-in-time manufacturing. But hey! Canada isn't ready for it. It's too hard!
Well, here is an exercise in "choose your battles" because I used to "be that guy" who purchased and coordinated all the just-in-time deliveries for Toyota in Woodstock and Cambridge.

I also, therefore, had to commute through that pitiful piece of 401 between Cambridge and Windsor on a regular basis -- and then on the Kentucky, which was even worse.

The point is, just-in-time doesn't mean fast. JIT just means "on time". So all of our calculations for cargo were based on the 401 being rather slow and prone to disruptions. I don't care if it takes three days to move robot parts from Michigan to Woodstock, as long as I KNOW that it takes three days. And in reality a company called Norgren does move its parts slowly from Michigan to KW area regularly -- no problem. At any rate (pardon the pun), cargo does not take high speed rail. Cargo goes in a truck. People train goes out of Wichita, n'lessn you're a hog.

You know, I just realized I'm responding to a person who compared southern Ontario to Switzerland and Belgium. I think, I'm gonna go get drunker now. From now on Mr Magyar is Mr. Myanmar.

-jM
A&D
 
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Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
I've used the ICE in Germany. Inter-City-Express. Why Germany chose an English name for their high speed rail, well, probably has something to do with the Zeitgeist. It was comparable to the shinkansen in Japan. France, not so much. My favourite however was the Moscow express, which was neither express, nor went to Moscow. But it has daffodils in the window and a quiet charm that made me feel like, "wow, this is NOT an airplane."

And for those like me that get horny on stats:

switzerland canada japan belgium - Wolfram|Alpha

-jM
A&D
 

derek

TRIBE Member
anyone that's also dealt with intermodal / siderail shunts with CP or CN know that rail is not the greatest friend of JIT.

jit is about knowing transit times and planning i/b & o/b loads accordingly.

putting a cargo car on a high speed train wouldn't do much because the limiting factor is the shunt yard.
 

Bass-Invader

TRIBE Member
Try again, champ! If you have unlimited time and money, the 401 is great. Normal people lack at least one of the two. Switzerland has fewer people than the Windsor-Quebec corridor, but they can still build high-speed rail there. Same with Belgium. Oh! There are airports? Well, I guess Europeans don't have those since Germany and France developed international high-speed rail links. It likely cost nothing since only Canada has to pay a bazillion trillion dollars for infrastructure. Nice one on Mars One, though. A non-profit is the same thing as a government.
All the high speed networks in Europe are interconnected and international. Saying "Switzerland has fewer people" ignores the fact that those lines connect to all the surrounding countries. People travel through Switzerland to get to Francy, Italy, and Germany so if you're arguing density vs viability for passenger saturation, you need to count people in those places too.

Instead, to make your argument, you've erased the rest of Europe. Kept Switzerland. And now are pointing at HS in just that country and saying "see that's enough density to justify HS!"
That's just disingenuous.

And cargo can go slowly? That's interesting given just-in-time manufacturing. But hey! Canada isn't ready for it. It's too hard!
HS rail is almost exclusively used for passenger transport. Very, very few places use it for cargo except in limited circumstances.
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
Yeah, no one goes to Windsor except people traveling to and from Windsor.
Sorry, just today I'm rereading this and it kind of reminded me of my old computer programming days. You know, probably before you were born.

But I guess I have to agree with you: the only people going to Windsor are the people who are going to Windsor.

-jM
A&D
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
Is there anything fun to do around Pearson airport? I may take it just because. No flight or anything.
On a rare serious note,

You can actually drive up pretty close to the runway and watch the airplanes land. I don't know if the airport has schedules but it seems that in the evening a plane lands about every minute or two.

You know, not speaking from experience or anything, but it's a nice way to get laid in the open air. Make a picnic out of it.

-jM
A&D
 
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Mr. Magyar

TRIBE Member
I love the excuses that are being made for Canada being the only G7 country without a high-speed rail link and being behind centres of developmental excellence like Iran and Kazakhstan. "Canada's geography is too big! Canada's population is too small! It costs too much money!" With that no-can-do attitude, it's no wonder that nothing has been done to correct the problems of having the second worst infant mortalty rate in the developed world, the high rate of illiteracy and semi-literacy -- 42% of the population versus about a third of the American population -- and First Nations peoples' living conditions which would be ranked around 65th on the UN's human development index.

People tell me that I'll miss Canada when I leave to start my new job in Paris next week, but with the exception of Québec and its wonderful people and culture, I can't say that I will and this thread confirms it. English Canada is an ersatz nation that champions small-mindedness, loves mediocrity, avoids having honest conversations about its problems and history. bleats about how great it is at a game that no one gives a fuck about, and believes that Tim Horton's constitutes cuisine. Hopefully, the proud, cultured, and noble Québécois, Inuit, and First Nations peoples will one day liberate themselves from the suffocating political and cultural environment imposed on them by English Canada.
 

I_bRAD

TRIBE Member
Hopefully, the proud, cultured, and noble Québécois, Inuit, and First Nations peoples will one day liberate themselves from the suffocating political and cultural environment imposed on them by English Canada.
Like they can afford to move to Paris
 

Bass-Invader

TRIBE Member
I love the excuses that are being made for Canada being the only G7 country without a high-speed rail link and being behind centres of developmental excellence like Iran and Kazakhstan. "Canada's geography is too big! Canada's population is too small! It costs too much money!" With that no-can-do attitude, it's no wonder that nothing has been done to correct the problems of having the second worst infant mortalty rate in the developed world, the high rate of illiteracy and semi-literacy -- 42% of the population versus about a third of the American population -- and First Nations peoples' living conditions which would be ranked around 65th on the UN's human development index.

People tell me that I'll miss Canada when I leave to start my new job in Paris next week, but with the exception of Québec and its wonderful people and culture, I can't say that I will and this thread confirms it. English Canada is an ersatz nation that champions small-mindedness, loves mediocrity, avoids having honest conversations about its problems and history. bleats about how great it is at a game that no one gives a fuck about, and believes that Tim Horton's constitutes cuisine. Hopefully, the proud, cultured, and noble Québécois, Inuit, and First Nations peoples will one day liberate themselves from the suffocating political and cultural environment imposed on them by English Canada.
Didn't the khazakstani president build and maintain a palace of ice in the desert to celebrate himself? Canada should be ashamed for not having one.
 
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Klubmasta Will

TRIBE Member
Canada's population is too small! It costs too much money!" With that no-can-do attitude, it's no wonder that nothing has been done to correct the problems of having the second worst infant mortalty rate in the developed world, the high rate of illiteracy and semi-literacy -- 42% of the population versus about a third of the American population -- and First Nations peoples' living conditions which would be ranked around 65th on the UN's human development index.
i was curious about your "second worst infant mortality rate in the developed world" comment, so i looked it up and found this article. Infant mortality rate - Canada and world results

the result is potentially explained by the following factors, all of which put canada in a positive light:

1. countries have different policies/rules regarding the reporting of live births and stillbirths. canada has a broader definition of live births and would include stillbirths on its infant mortality rating while other countries would not.

2. canada has greater success delivering pre-term and low birthweight babies, who obviously have greater risk of early death.

3. new fertility programs result in more multiple births (two or more babies), who are often born pre-term with a higher rate of early death.

statistics can be used to buttress a point, but they are dangerous when taken out of context.

THE ECONOMIST used a bunch of statistics to conclude that toronto and montreal were the two best cities in the world in which to live. whether you agree or not with the statement, you can examine their statistics and decide for yourself. http://www.tribemagazine.com/board/tribe-main-forum/170691-toronto-ranked-best-place-live-economist-study.html
 

tobywan

TRIBE Member
The cost to take the GO Train from Union to Barrie is $13, and you can get an advanced web fare of just under $50 to take VIA to Windsor.

How they figure $27 is a fair and logical price to go from downtown to the airport is mind boggling.
 

diablo

TRIBE Member
I love the excuses that are being made for Canada being the only G7 country without a high-speed rail link and being behind centres of developmental excellence like Iran and Kazakhstan. "Canada's geography is too big! Canada's population is too small! It costs too much money!" With that no-can-do attitude, it's no wonder that nothing has been done to correct the problems of having the second worst infant mortalty rate in the developed world, the high rate of illiteracy and semi-literacy -- 42% of the population versus about a third of the American population -- and First Nations peoples' living conditions which would be ranked around 65th on the UN's human development index.

People tell me that I'll miss Canada when I leave to start my new job in Paris next week, but with the exception of Québec and its wonderful people and culture, I can't say that I will and this thread confirms it. English Canada is an ersatz nation that champions small-mindedness, loves mediocrity, avoids having honest conversations about its problems and history. bleats about how great it is at a game that no one gives a fuck about, and believes that Tim Horton's constitutes cuisine. Hopefully, the proud, cultured, and noble Québécois, Inuit, and First Nations peoples will one day liberate themselves from the suffocating political and cultural environment imposed on them by English Canada.
 

Littlest Hobo

TRIBE Member
The cost to take the GO Train from Union to Barrie is $13, and you can get an advanced web fare of just under $50 to take VIA to Windsor.

How they figure $27 is a fair and logical price to go from downtown to the airport is mind boggling.
The city (and province) does things so poorly (food carts, road construction) our flag should be half an ass with a finger-wagging in front of it.

I can see this appealing to a downtown single traveller on the subway line and that is it. Anywhere but downtown on the subway line you must get to Union first ($3) then travel to YYZ. Most taxis in Toronto get you there for $50-$60. If you travel in pairs the savings are minimal and you have to spend way more time getting there.

I'm late to the party but Japan gets the fastest train because the Japanese take care of their shit, are forward-thinking and take pride in their surroundings. It has not much to do with density or other things. You can see the country by public transit from Tokyo to the most rural setting quickly and in a very clean setting. You can drink on the subway and people are quiet and respectful 99/100. Here every asshole with a smartphone seem to blare their mush-mouth semi-literate music and just can't sit down and shut up.
 

ndrwrld

TRIBE Member
The cost to take the GO Train from Union to Barrie is $13, and you can get an advanced web fare of just under $50 to take VIA to Windsor.

How they figure $27 is a fair and logical price to go from downtown to the airport is mind boggling.
maybe it stops at the Landing Strip ?
 
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Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
canada france - Wolfram|Alpha

Basically the same in most expected metrics, for developed countries.

Except Canadians generate a lot more wealth than the French, $52kUSD per year compared to the French's modest $42.5kUSD...

But -- not that that French money will get you very far, because the business tax rate in Canada averages 21% whereas France is a whopping 66%.

So, Mr. Myanmar, by all means, go.

-jM
A&D
 
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