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Japan get fastest train in the world, we have to wait until June for Union-Pearson shuttle

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
Not only that, it is nearly $30 for a one way trip to the airport. For that kind of money it should at least be a maglev train or a monorail IMO.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Infrastructure in Asia is eons ahead, Europe even too. Its cause in these places grand public works are still valued, by elites and public both.

In North America we let our public places degrade and deteriorate so we can all have bigger and nicer private spaces.

I dont dig the tradeoff
 
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Bass-Invader

TRIBE Member
Infrastructure in Asia is eons ahead, Europe even too. Its cause in these places grand public works are still valued, by elites and public both.

In North America we let our public places degrade and deteriorate so we can all have bigger and nicer private spaces.

I dont dig the tradeoff
population density.
 

Snuffy

TRIBE Member
Is there anything fun to do around Pearson airport? I may take it just because. No flight or anything.
 
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Beings

TRIBE Member
It isn't even electric, it will be a diesel train. lol
Love the color too, if it was any more depressing looking they'd need to pay you 30$ NOT to jump in front of the train on the tracks.

TTC to Kipling, Catch 192 to airport. My GF takes it every day, takes about an hour in 6pm traffic from Ryerson to PIA Terminal 3. Which is surprisingly efficient if you ever tried driving this route yourself.
 

Mr. Magyar

TRIBE Member
Well, Canada is the only G7 country without high-speed rail of any sort. It's also pretty embarrassing that countries like Kazakhstan and Morocco will have high speed rail before Canada.
 

Mr. Magyar

TRIBE Member
population density.
Except 80% of the population lives near the US border and a high-speed rail service running along the Windsor-Quebec City corridor where 50% of the Canadian population lives is entirely feasible. So, yeah ... Population density is a bullshit excuse.
 
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diablo

TRIBE Member
Except 80% of the population lives near the US border and a high-speed rail service running along the Windsor-Quebec City corridor where 50% of the Canadian population lives is entirely feasible. So, yeah ... Population density is a bullshit excuse.
Essentially, that corridor is already well-served.

A high-speed train to Windsor or Quebec City isn't needed, so we're really talking about the possibility of a Toronto-Montreal route. Right now, the options are:

- 5-hour drive (say, $100 in gas)
- 5-hour train (about $135 return when I used this option in January)
- 1-hour flight ($250-300ish, but often much less during seat sales)

A high-speed train would cost billions to build, and only makes sense if you'd be able to drastically reduce either the cost or the time of the journey. A maglev (or similar) train would take about the same amount of time as a flight (likely slightly longer), and there's no way it's going to be cheaper than an existing train, given the cost of the infrastructure. So, as of now, there's no compelling reason to build it.

A Vancouver-Toronto train would probably make more sense, but again, the cost would be astronomical.
 

Bass-Invader

TRIBE Member
Except 80% of the population lives near the US border and a high-speed rail service running along the Windsor-Quebec City corridor where 50% of the Canadian population lives is entirely feasible. So, yeah ... Population density is a bullshit excuse.
That's a poor argument. You're saying hey, the PROPORTION of people living in this corridor is high, therefore the density is high. That's wrong. The absolute number in ratio to the distance is what matters, not the proportion.

How many people would fill a windsor->Toronto->QC corridor's train service? Contrast against the intra-metropolitan traffic that fills high speed rail in the rest of the world.

Will windsor->QC (about 1100km) have comparable customer saturation to a madrid->barca->Marseille->Paris (about 1500km) line?

Hell, the length of Japan is like 1300km. Are you going to compare the density of people living there to those along the windsor->qc corridor because "80%" of people in ON/QC live near the corridor? Is it not obvious how much more economically viable it's going to be for that country to build HS?

There are probably short corridors where a HS line would make sense in Canada. But not many.
 

Primavera

TRIBE Member
Just to play devil's advocate, since you mentioned Japan in comparison to our Airport Express Train.

Having visited both airports in Tokyo (Haneda and Narita), I can tell you the express train's for both those airports cost more than $30 Canadian for one-way journeys.
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
Just to play devil's advocate, since you mentioned Japan in comparison to our Airport Express Train.

Having visited both airports in Tokyo (Haneda and Narita), I can tell you the express train's for both those airports cost more than $30 Canadian for one-way journeys.
but it's so much easier to complain about things than inform yourself of the facts
 
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Mr. Magyar

TRIBE Member
Essentially, that corridor is already well-served.

A high-speed train to Windsor or Quebec City isn't needed, so we're really talking about the possibility of a Toronto-Montreal route. Right now, the options are:

- 5-hour drive (say, $100 in gas)
- 5-hour train (about $135 return when I used this option in January)
- 1-hour flight ($250-300ish, but often much less during seat sales)

A high-speed train would cost billions to build, and only makes sense if you'd be able to drastically reduce either the cost or the time of the journey. A maglev (or similar) train would take about the same amount of time as a flight (likely slightly longer), and there's no way it's going to be cheaper than an existing train, given the cost of the infrastructure. So, as of now, there's no compelling reason to build it.

A Vancouver-Toronto train would probably make more sense, but again, the cost would be astronomical.
Actually, it's incredibly poorly served given the amount of people who live in the corridor and the amount of economic activity that takes place there. And yes, it will cost money to build it. What do you think it costs elsewhere? A few bags of beans and some goodwill? Who knew that only Canada uses money?

That's a poor argument. You're saying hey, the PROPORTION of people living in this corridor is high, therefore the density is high. That's wrong. The absolute number in ratio to the distance is what matters, not the proportion.

How many people would fill a windsor->Toronto->QC corridor's train service? Contrast against the intra-metropolitan traffic that fills high speed rail in the rest of the world.

Will windsor->QC (about 1100km) have comparable customer saturation to a madrid->barca->Marseille->Paris (about 1500km) line?

Hell, the length of Japan is like 1300km. Are you going to compare the density of people living there to those along the windsor->qc corridor because "80%" of people in ON/QC live near the corridor? Is it not obvious how much more economically viable it's going to be for that country to build HS?

There are probably short corridors where a HS line would make sense in Canada. But not many.
Except a plan was in place to build high-speed rail in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor before Paul Martin shelved it when he became PM in 2003 and Ontario and Quebec are exploring the issue.
 

diablo

TRIBE Member
Actually, it's incredibly poorly served given the amount of people who live in the corridor and the amount of economic activity that takes place there. And yes, it will cost money to build it. What do you think it costs elsewhere? A few bags of beans and some goodwill? Who knew that only Canada uses money?
Way to completely sidestep the issues being discussed.

In order for what would be one of the most expensive, multi-government infrastructure projects in our country's history to be built, there has to be a cost/benefit analysis. In this case, the cost is massive (tens of billions of dollars), and the benefit is marginal (a train that looks pretty but goes no faster than a flight, for an equal or greater price than traditional rail).

What makes you say that the corridor is "incredibly poorly served"? If that was the case, it would be either very expensive or very difficult to transport goods and people along this corridor. A quick search reveals that VIA has nine trains going from Toronto to Montreal on Monday. There are two airports from which you can fly. The 401 is open 24 hours a day. No one else seems to be having a problem.


Except a plan was in place to build high-speed rail in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor before Paul Martin shelved it when he became PM in 2003 and Ontario and Quebec are exploring the issue.
All kinds of governments have had all kinds of projects at various stages of planning before they were deemd to be unfeasible for one reason or another. The fact that some guy floated a random idea X number of years ago means nothing. See also: Mars One project.
 

Primavera

TRIBE Member
Magyar

Just also for the point of comparisons to Asia and infrastructure there vs what we have here.

If we say that the corridor between Windsor to Quebec City is the most populous corridor in Canada, it's around 1150km and when you throw Windsor/London/GTA/Ottawa/Montreal Quebec and say any community within 50km into the mix it's probably a 15 million person area, max 20 million

Compare that to say this in Japan:
Taiheiy
This is a 1200km corridor of Japan that has 83 million people living in it.

15-20 million is not even in the same ballpark as 83+ million people.
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
For work, I frequently used the high speed rail in Japan. I lived in Nagoya, which was nice and centrally located.

I never really knew the distance from anywhere to anywhere because my brain was hardwired for "distance = hours in car x 100km/h" and obviously the trains don't work that way. So it's ~280 to Tokyo from Nagoya according to the article. Interesting.

But I will tell you this. You get on the shinkansen at Fukuoka, which is where is arguably starts, and the entire way through every major city in skinny Japan up to Tokyo (I never made it further than Tokyo), you do NOT see an interruption in urbanization whatsoever. Other people have mentioned the figures, they are, in some way, irrelevant because Japan prefectures and municipalities will arbitrarily draw up their borders and density figures reflect it. The point is, along the high speed rail line, it is uninterrupted, as far as you can see out the window, urban development. (aka sprawl, think the shit parts of Mississauga, as opposed to the good parts of Brampton)

And one stop looks like the next stop looks like the next stop, and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same.

ANd the density doesn't end at the high-speed rail stops. THen there is a network of trains that permeates down to a point that every person pretty much anywhere can, in no more than a 5 minute bike ride, access a train which will bring them to anywhere in the country, for a variety of $$$. The cost is measured not per ride but per distance, everywhere, at all scales. Oh and as someone mentioned, if you take a leg to an airport the "scale" drastically increases.

What DO they do with all those spent magnetic train tickets?

Windsor to Montreal is a long distance. Forget that no commuters actually go to Windsor; from London to Windsor is just cargo, which can go slowly. The drive from London to Windsor is so boring that it's danerous, but so infrequent that the road is frequently snowed over.

Then there's Ajax to Kingston.. that's another ghost town, except Napanee where they have a McDonalds and a left turn in case you want to go into the no-man's land of Canada's North, which I'll point out is itself 3 times larger than all of Japan.

From Kingston, you can take a poop in Cornwall or turn left for Ottawa, but otherwise there's nothing but a depaneur until you get to Montreal.

I've taken the train from Kitchener to Montreal and it's a pleasant, but slow experience. Note that the shinkansen is not a pleasant experience. It's very akin to an airplane. Via rail: you have lots of space, big windows, leg room, conversation, "time".

Anyway this country is not ready nor needing of high speed rail yet and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Take the VIA from Toronto to Vancouver and it's a tourist destination, because of the awesome scenery along the way. There is no such thing in Japan except blue roofs, cramped streets, and the incessant Daie grocery store chain ads.

-jM
A&D
 
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