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Israel now bombing Syria, opening up full-scale war in the region
- Thread starter alexd
- Start date
If NATO would have gotten involved in the beginning chapters of this conflict:
1) Al-Qaeda would likely not be as involved with the rebels as they are; and,
2) Israel would not have felt compelled to strike Syria.
I know that NATO, and particularly the US, did not want to get drawn into another expensive campaign. In hindsight, I think this was one time they really should have.
1) Al-Qaeda would likely not be as involved with the rebels as they are; and,
2) Israel would not have felt compelled to strike Syria.
I know that NATO, and particularly the US, did not want to get drawn into another expensive campaign. In hindsight, I think this was one time they really should have.
Lojack
TRIBE Member
Technically not always. Burning the chemicals up in place may contaminate the immediate area, but that's about it.
As for the possibility of war? At this moment, unlikely. Syria is too stretched to attack Israel, Lebanon won't, Hezbollah is still re-arming and the Turkish-Israeli relationship is under repair. Russia's only Mediterranean naval base is within Syria, and they are not anxious to lose that by taking unnecessary risks, or allowing others to do so. Unless another state steps into the mess or there is a major CBRN type attack, I doubt it will escalate. My two cents anyway.
praktik
TRIBE Member
I think Zakaria had a good point today - McCain was castigating Obama for not getting involved sooner, saying "we haven't seen stuff like this for a long time"
Well actually - we have - the Americans had 180 000 troops in Iraq and shit there was just as bad for even longer... So why do we think any earlier intervention would work given our track record?
In both cases we are dealing with a historically in-power minority who has nothing left to lose facing the uncorked rabble that were repressed for decades. Except in Syria's case the minority is even smaller and they have even farther to fall.
I am unconvinced earlier intervention would have made things that much better and more arms to the rebels - for instance - to consider a "intervention-lite" model could just have intensified the civil war further and increased the #s of dead and injured. The West likes to think that our advanced weaponry, systems of government and alleged moral superiority makes for wicked mix for foreign intervention - I am unconvinced and think these things make us believe too much in our own capacity to change the world in far off places.
Well actually - we have - the Americans had 180 000 troops in Iraq and shit there was just as bad for even longer... So why do we think any earlier intervention would work given our track record?
In both cases we are dealing with a historically in-power minority who has nothing left to lose facing the uncorked rabble that were repressed for decades. Except in Syria's case the minority is even smaller and they have even farther to fall.
I am unconvinced earlier intervention would have made things that much better and more arms to the rebels - for instance - to consider a "intervention-lite" model could just have intensified the civil war further and increased the #s of dead and injured. The West likes to think that our advanced weaponry, systems of government and alleged moral superiority makes for wicked mix for foreign intervention - I am unconvinced and think these things make us believe too much in our own capacity to change the world in far off places.
Excellent analysis and points. Thanks for offering your insights!
ndrwrld
TRIBE Member
A new defense deal between the US and Israel, after a year of secret negotiations, will give the Israel Air Force (IAF) a technological overhaul. The IAF will receive F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter bombers, the latest C-130J Hercules transports and cargo planes, both made by Lockheed Martin Corporation (NYSE: LMT), and the Italian M-346 jet trainer, made by Alenia Aermacchi. The IAF will also receive the new Boeing KC-135 air-to-air refueling tankers, which it has only been able to dream about until now.
It's considered good form to link to the source.
It seems to me that the publicists are working overtime to create a march to war treadmill to backstop our governement and the US governement's decision to send troops, guns, bombs, or money to overthrow the regime in Syria.
First it was the human rights abuse stories, then it was the refugee camp stories, then it was was a raft of stories about how the rebels were not linked to al qaida (that seems to be true), now there are stories about Syria using chemical weapons. Will this story be the mushroom cloud that galvanized the West into another invasion?
First it was the human rights abuse stories, then it was the refugee camp stories, then it was was a raft of stories about how the rebels were not linked to al qaida (that seems to be true), now there are stories about Syria using chemical weapons. Will this story be the mushroom cloud that galvanized the West into another invasion?
praktik
TRIBE Member
No one needs to give anyone orders to get stories like that. If you are a writer for a major Canadian newspaper you have likely inculcated the basic assumptions of Western power, otherwise you wouldn't be writing for a "major" paper. Fact is there are legitimate reasons to report all those stories - they ARE happening. The question is should these stories take the next step and advocate for Western intervention (though let's not forget that interviewing Conservative party members in government will give space for those kinds of stories to go that way as Harper/McKay and others will lead the stories in that direction).
Canada, steeped in the national myth of being World "Peacekeepers", I think its very natural and organic for editorials and stories to present that next step to us as a realistic option. Syria is a "disfavoured" nation that has long-been in the list of "bad nations" that represent interests opposed to Western interests (being more allied with Shia proxy forces in Lebanon and Iran and Russia - also a classic enemy of Israel) - so when atrocities happen in these places especially, the "what are we gonna DO about it!?" angle is even easier to get excited about...
If you are a writer for a major newspaper then you have inculcated the national myth of "peacekeeping", you are likely largely in-line with a foreign policy view that places Syria in the "bad nation" category (and there's legitimate reasons to put them there IMO, even if it is propagandistic).
So is the drumbeat manufactured or is it organic?
To me I would say 90% organic - there's no need for there to be much more to explain it....
praktik
TRIBE Member
Yep I agree!
I feel like our national myth was perverted to American ends. We used to be proud of our role in the Suez crisis, in the UN missions in Cyprus+Israel, our general support of the UN.
But American pressure has bent that view to their particular national interest, and if we had Team Blue in power vs Team Red when Iraq was starting we would a maybe been in both Afghanistan AND Iraq instead of just one... (Crouton horse-traded our role in Afghanistan for an abstention from Iraq)
Personally that myth of being a UN peacekeepr died over the last decade for me and while Im sure in the mainstream it is still well entrenched I bet there has been some erosion in the wider public - and I think that's a good thing.
Having a national myth like that makes us vulnerable to more (mis)adventures as we get snookered into partnering up with another stupid American-led mission. Still though we have such intimate ties with them I am not sure Canada can manage to abstain from all future American wars without there being some political/economic price to pay.
praktik
TRIBE Member
Oh nice, Greenwald linked to a Maher Arar story on Syria @ bottom of his post:
Syria: To oppose, or not to oppose? - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
Syria: To oppose, or not to oppose? - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
loopdokter
TRIBE Promoter
No matter what the West does in this area, it's a shit-show of a power vacuum. No one wins by being involved or not involved, so why waste the expenditure when thousands of people are going to continue to die?.
I think that's the mentality prevailing in the West. The West has lots of experience with propping up regimes, removing them and arming rebels. Recent experience has shown that Libya hasn't gone too well and removing Ghadaffi has only allowed for the creation of massive amounts of arms being flooded into the country.
Now if there were oil fields running through this place, that would be a different story!
I think that's the mentality prevailing in the West. The West has lots of experience with propping up regimes, removing them and arming rebels. Recent experience has shown that Libya hasn't gone too well and removing Ghadaffi has only allowed for the creation of massive amounts of arms being flooded into the country.
Now if there were oil fields running through this place, that would be a different story!
praktik
TRIBE Member
praktik
TRIBE Member
Beinart w/ an amazing piece on Syria, asking people advocating for intervention in Syria, why they aren't advocating to "intervene" in Iraq again:
Our Syria Myopia - The Daily Beast
Our Syria Myopia - The Daily Beast
The big difference between Syria on the one hand, and Afghanistan and Iraq on the other, is that in Syria, Americans can still claim innocence, which is how we like it. As a country, we’re more attracted to cleaning up messes made by others than the ones we make ourselves. And just as our media generally allows hawks like John McCain to advocate military intervention in Syria without quizzing them about the interventions they advocated in the past, we expect the rest of the world to wipe the slate clean every time America loses interest in one war and gears up for another.
Lojack
TRIBE Member
Sing along everyone!
On the right:
WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD!
And now, on the left:
R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P! R2P!
D'oh! Wait it isn't supposed to happen like that! Let's do it over again!
-- L