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Israel defends construction of Wall with parts of a bus.

~atp~

TRIBE Member
World Court hears case on Israeli barrier
Last Updated Mon Feb 23 08:45:58 2004

THE HAGUE-- The World Court began three days of hearings Monday into the legality of Israel's controversial West Bank barrier.

alkidwa_cp_5499139.jpg

Nasser al-Kidwa at the Great Hall of Justice in The Hague, Netherlands.
(AP photo)

The Palestinian permanent observer to the United Nations opened the hearings in The Hague by dismissing Israel's claim that the barrier is a defence against suicide bombers.

Ambassador Nasser al-Kidwa told the 15-judge panel that the barrier, which cuts into the West Bank, is an excuse for Israelis to annex large areas of Palestinian land.

Earlier in a televised speech, Palestinian President Yasser Arafat called the barrier an "expansionist and racist segregationist wall" meant to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel and would not bring Israel peace and security.

Hundreds of supporters of the barrier demonstrated outside the court, carrying Israeli flags and signs reading, When Terrorism Stops, The Wall Comes Down.

A small group of protesters against the barrier rallied across the street, calling for an end to the occupation of the West Bank and construction of the barrier.

Although the United Nations asked the judicial body to issue an advisory opinion on the legal consequences of the barrier, the court's decision is non-binding.

But Palestinians hope a ruling against the barrier will put pressure on Israel to tear it down. Israelis have built about 180 km of the planned 730 km barrier.

Israel has boycotted the hearings and has not sent any representatives to the court.

Instead, Israel submitted written arguments that the court has no authority over the issue.


Israel claims the barrier is needed to protect the country from Palestinian suicide bombers who have killed hundreds of Israelis over three years.

To back up the argument, Israel flew in the remains of a bus blown up in a January suicide bombing, parking it outside the court. :rolleyes:

The hearings begin a day after a separate attack on a Jerusalem bus by a Palestinian killed eight Israelis and wounded dozens.

Meanwhile, thousands of Palestinian demonstrators marched in the West Bank and Gaza Strip protesting the barrier.

In some areas, Israeli soldiers fired tear gas to keep thousands of marchers from coming too close to the barrier and to disperse stone throwers.



Written by CBC News Online staff
 
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Littlest Hobo

TRIBE Member
Israel should have taker it one step further and brought in the remains of the actual people blown up by Palestinian terrorists.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Although the United Nations asked the judicial body to issue an advisory opinion on the legal consequences of the barrier, the court's decision is non-binding.


Obvously, and they also don't have the ability to force Israel to do anything. If you don't have anything to threaten them with or bribe them with what is the point.


Israel has boycotted the hearings and has not sent any representatives to the court.


Israel has made its point already and has made its point clear. But this barrier is going up anyway so why go to court.


Instead, Israel submitted written arguments that the court has no authority over the issue.

They don't have any authority over it. And they can't force any damages. They can't negotiate they don't represent any of the official parties. The court has as much authority as a mock grade 12 UN assembly.

Unless you can make Israel remove it by force you don't stand much of a chance. And nobody is going to take the line by force.

Israel flew in the remains of a bus blown up in a January suicide bombing, parking it outside the court.

civilian soft targets...

Israel makes this point very clear, Gaza has a barrier and during the latest uprising it has had 0 bombers come from it. West Bank does not have a barrier and we have 1000 dead civilians.

But Israel can't ignore the pizza parlours and they can't ignore the busses. Somebody is going to have to stand for these crimes, and if nobody else is going to be tyhe authority by force, by defacto it is them. Palestine doesn't have an authority, it has warlord thugs,
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Ditto Much
Obvously, and they also don't have the ability to force Israel to do anything. If you don't have anything to threaten them with or bribe them with what is the point.

So you concede that the only way to enforce humanitarian law (or any law) is by the threat of force?

...regardless of your answer, this of course doesn't justify the actions of others, threatened or not.

Originally posted by Ditto Much
Israel has made its point already and has made its point clear. But this barrier is going up anyway so why go to court.

Because the wall is a sickening example of all that is wrong with the Israeli government's mentality? Should we just let them build it? Hey, fuck the Palestinians, the Israelis will be SAFE once that wall gets built. Oh, and we may as well carve an extra 20% of the Palestinian territory out for ourselves, but lets make sure we get all the water sources, and run over as many farms as possible as we do it.

Originally posted by Ditto Much
Unless you can make Israel remove it by force you don't stand much of a chance. And nobody is going to take the line by force.

You're repeating yourself again. And, what are you really saying here? Are you saying that force is the only way to resolve any problem? Or just this one? Or are you making Israel an exception for some reason?

Originally posted by Ditto Much
civilian soft targets...

Israel makes this point very clear, Gaza has a barrier and during the latest uprising it has had 0 bombers come from it. West Bank does not have a barrier and we have 1000 dead civilians.

*yawn*

This is a silly argument, over-simplified so that people like Ditto Much can understand it, and use it at a moment's notice.

Why is Israel forging through Palestinian land then? Why haven't they built along the green line? Do you really think that building a fucking wall will create a more hospitable, safe environment in the long-term? Do you think it will reduce the hatred and polarity of the two sides?

What a fucking lame cop-out. Build a wall around a population of human beings and you've reduced their existence to the functional equivalent of caged animals, except in this case, the caged animals are occasionally shot at. Do you have any clue what life is like in Gaza? Do you think wrapping a wall around these people is going to improve humanitarian conditions? Oh, maybe a little bit for the Israelis. Who cares, as long as the Israeli population is SAFE, right? Who cares if the entire population of Palestine is living in squalor, besides, no one can see them because no one's allowed to go into the territories, and if they do, they risk getting shot. With a wall, no one will even be able to see what's going on in there...and it's all ok because the statistics show that there have been on average 'x' percent less bombinbs in downtown Tel Aviv. Fucking great.

Meanwhile, the hatred and anger in the entire Arab world is growing, in fact, seething every day; proliferation of hate, violence and irrational fear all wrapped into a religiosity that responds to nothing except death, pain and suffering because that's all they can count on to be heard in this world, especially since the media obviously doesn't fucking care about them.


Originally posted by Ditto Much
Palestine doesn't have an authority, it has warlord thugs, [/B]

I have far more respect for the "thugs" in Palestine than I do for the fat, delusional Prime Minister of Israel.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
So you concede that the only way to enforce humanitarian law (or any law) is by the threat of force?

...regardless of your answer, this of course doesn't justify the actions of others, threatened or not.



Because the wall is a sickening example of all that is wrong with the Israeli government's mentality? Should we just let them build it? Hey, fuck the Palestinians, the Israelis will be SAFE once that wall gets built. Oh, and we may as well carve an extra 20% of the Palestinian territory out for ourselves, but lets make sure we get all the water sources, and run over as many farms as possible as we do it.



You're repeating yourself again. And, what are you really saying here? Are you saying that force is the only way to resolve any problem? Or just this one? Or are you making Israel an exception for some reason?



*yawn*

This is a silly argument, over-simplified so that people like Ditto Much can understand it, and use it at a moment's notice.

Why is Israel forging through Palestinian land then? Why haven't they built along the green line? Do you really think that building a fucking wall will create a more hospitable, safe environment in the long-term? Do you think it will reduce the hatred and polarity of the two sides?

What a fucking lame cop-out. Build a wall around a population of human beings and you've reduced their existence to the functional equivalent of caged animals, except in this case, the caged animals are occasionally shot at. Do you have any clue what life is like in Gaza? Do you think wrapping a wall around these people is going to improve humanitarian conditions? Oh, maybe a little bit for the Israelis. Who cares, as long as the Israeli population is SAFE, right? Who cares if the entire population of Palestine is living in squalor, besides, no one can see them because no one's allowed to go into the territories, and if they do, they risk getting shot. With a wall, no one will even be able to see what's going on in there...and it's all ok because the statistics show that there have been on average 'x' percent less bombinbs in downtown Tel Aviv. Fucking great.

Meanwhile, the hatred and anger in the entire Arab world is growing, in fact, seething every day; proliferation of hate, violence and irrational fear all wrapped into a religiosity that responds to nothing except death, pain and suffering because that's all they can count on to be heard in this world, especially since the media obviously doesn't fucking care about them.




I have far more respect for the "thugs" in Palestine than I do for the fat, delusional Prime Minister of Israel.



I'm saying that after 500 resutions and court decisions calling them the bad guys they don't much give a damn about our opinions anyway.

Unless you can stop the attacks in some practical means there is no chance of telling them what to do. Call a court case every week if you would like, call one in every country of the world you would like. All that Israel would do trying to defend its already stated opinion on the matter is spend money. They know damn well they will lose each and every time already so why bother.

What to save face... Whats the point. Its not like its going to inspire peace in Palestine, hell Palestine isn't even going to be at peace when it is enclosed. But land grab aside without a stop to the attacks Israel has no reason to continue pointless negotiations.


Why is this different than the barrier wall in Gaza?

Yes its a land grab and the horrors of horrors it represents is awful. But aside from spitting on the jews which everyone has already done to the ends of the earth what are you proposing?

You want tyo tell Israel and the jewish people that you are going to prevent them being attacked. They get attacked and you think they won't defend themselves, be a little realistic here.
 
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~atp~

TRIBE Member
I am being realistic. Pull back to the green line, just try it, once, and see what happens. If "them dirty Ay-rabs" keep blowing themselves up, then I would probably support a militaristic intervention of some kind to "root out" Hamas, yadda yadda. But building the wall is a very short-term, expensive partial solution to a long-term problem, and fuckface (aka Sharon) has used the population's fear as a tool for far too long...he needs to be shot.
 

expat

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
Pull back to the green line, just try it, once, and see what happens. If "them dirty Ay-rabs" keep blowing themselves up, then I would probably support a militaristic intervention of some kind

See, here's the thing: it has been tried, and it didn't work. In 2000 Israel pulled back to the internationally recognized borders with Lebanon. Barak was scrupulous in ensuring that Israel adhered to the proper borders. The thinking was that if Israel pulled out 100% then any strike by Hezbollah would be countered by the full force of the Israeli military --as any other breach of borders would be. What happened was that Hezbollah kept fighting (kidnappings, border skirmishes, etc) on the basis that Israel didn't "fully" pull out (which is wrong). More disturbingly, Israel's unilateral withdrawal out of Lebanon was interpreted as a sign of weakness, and it inspired the recent intifidah which has produced zero results. Basically, almost every analyst agrees that the Lebanon policy failed. You are advocating that Israel tries it again in the West Bank. It will also fail. Unilateralism doesn't work --Israel won't (and shouldn't) withdraw without a negotiated agreement with concessions and consensus from both sides.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by beatnik
See, here's the thing: it has been tried, and it didn't work. In 2000 Israel pulled back to the internationally recognized borders with Lebanon. Barak was scrupulous in ensuring that Israel adhered to the proper borders. The thinking was that if Israel pulled out 100% then any strike by Hezbollah would be countered by the full force of the Israeli military --as any other breach of borders would be. What happened was that Hezbollah kept fighting (kidnappings, border skirmishes, etc) on the basis that Israel didn't "fully" pull out (which is wrong). More disturbingly, Israel's unilateral withdrawal out of Lebanon was interpreted as a sign of weakness, and it inspired the recent intifidah which has produced zero results. Basically, almost every analyst agrees that the Lebanon policy failed. You are advocating that Israel tries it again in the West Bank. It will also fail. Unilateralism doesn't work --Israel won't (and shouldn't) withdraw without a negotiated agreement with concessions and consensus from both sides.


and I take this one step forwqard and say that nobody speaks on behalf of one of the sides. Unless you speak for the people and for the ones waging the war you don't stand much of a chance.

The more Arafat was able to speak to one the less he could speak to the other.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by beatnik
See, here's the thing: it has been tried, and it didn't work. In 2000 Israel pulled back to the internationally recognized borders with Lebanon. Barak was scrupulous in ensuring that Israel adhered to the proper borders. The thinking was that if Israel pulled out 100% then any strike by Hezbollah would be countered by the full force of the Israeli military --as any other breach of borders would be. What happened was that Hezbollah kept fighting (kidnappings, border skirmishes, etc) on the basis that Israel didn't "fully" pull out (which is wrong). More disturbingly, Israel's unilateral withdrawal out of Lebanon was interpreted as a sign of weakness, and it inspired the recent intifidah which has produced zero results.

Yes I'm aware of the Lebanon example. It doesn't prove anything about the effectiveness of a passive defense tactic though.


Basically, almost every analyst agrees that the Lebanon policy failed. You are advocating that Israel tries it again in the West Bank. It will also fail. Unilateralism doesn't work --Israel won't (and shouldn't) withdraw without a negotiated agreement with concessions and consensus from both sides.

There's that sticky language again. "concessions and concessus from both sides"!!! That came right out of a UN General Assembly speech didn't it?? ;)

Well, having said that, then perhaps we should just keep building this wall as per Sharon's instructions.

The wall is a great idea. Too bad it isn't being built in order to protect the Israeli civilians.

Newsflash: Chomsky just wrote an article on the Wall. *All hail the King!* :D
 

expat

TRIBE Member
The article doesn't say anything new: the security barrier, in principle, makes some sense but its path is unlawful. Congrats. We already knew that.
Anywho, as long as Palestinian militants keep blowing up Israeli civilians in busses (like yesterday) there won't be much impetus for the Israeli government to change their policies.
 
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~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by beatnik
The article doesn't say anything new: the security barrier, in principle, makes some sense but its path is unlawful. Congrats. We already knew that.
Anywho, as long as Palestinian militants keep blowing up Israeli civilians in busses (like yesterday) there won't be much impetus for the Israeli government to change their policies.

I wonder why they like to blow up buses? Prob'ly cuz they just hate Jews. It's that simple. :)


EDIT: Chomsky doesn't need to say anything new: everyone that matters simply pretends those things which aren't new don't exist. So until those things which "aren't new" get addressed, we can all keep saying things that aren't new, which might be old to some of you, but which is really just a lame excuse to justify pathetic convictions about the righteousness of Israel's road to freedom.
 
Last edited:

OTIS

TRIBE Member
Israel is in no doubt traumatized by the civilian & soft target bombings and attacks, but overly-dramatic displays like this reinforce the idea that Israel is not ready to grow the fuck up and join with the international community as an entity that abides by the same standards as any other nation. For over 50 years, they have been guarded by the veto power of the US, and patience for this abuse of international law is wearing thin. This bus part display is akin to a juvenile throwing a tantrum in a department store crying "you'll never understand how I feel" while he knocks over a merchandise display in raw protest. It’s sad to the point of being embarrassing.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by fleaflo
What's with the land grab? Why couldn't they put up their little fence in abscence of the land grab?

Ariel Sharon is a fuckhead. That's why.


The wall is something that most Israeli citizens felt would improve security in their cities. Unfortunately, Sharon has used that as a further excuse to canton off the West Bank. it's a sick joke, and the worst form of oppression. In some places, you need authorization from IDF in order to live in your own home. Sounds pleasant, doesn't it?


Those defending the construction of the wall point to the bombing of civilian buses in Israel. It's valid to say that such bombing is horrifying and illegal, it's another to use it as justification for the oppression of an entire people.
 
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Neo-Marxist

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by OTIS
Israel is in no doubt traumatized by the civilian & soft target bombings and attacks, but overly-dramatic displays like this reinforce the idea that Israel is not ready to grow the fuck up and join with the international community as an entity that abides by the same standards as any other nation. For over 50 years, they have been guarded by the veto power of the US, and patience for this abuse of international law is wearing thin. This bus part display is akin to a juvenile throwing a tantrum in a department store crying "you'll never understand how I feel" while he knocks over a merchandise display in raw protest. It’s sad to the point of being embarrassing.

Don't disagree with you about the buses. I think you are absolutely right. However, let's remember that most of the land Israel currently inhabits was won through wars with Arab states. The Arab states never accepted the existence of Israel and they did make every effort to eradicate it. Now, this is not to excuse how Israel was created, but I think Arabs must share the blame for the Palestinians' atrocious condition. Indeed, no Arab state was willing to absorb Palestinian refugees for the simple reason that they were Palestinian. To be certain, Palestinians were massacred at the hands of other Arabs, e.g. King Hussein's Jordan.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by Neo-Marxist
To be certain, Palestinians were massacred at the hands of other Arabs, e.g. King Hussein's Jordan.

Oh definitely! Jordan got dumped on with a lot of Palestinians, and no one was prepared to take them on; they were left in encampments, to fend more or less for themselves.

The historical facts, as they are, cannot be used as an excuse for encouraging Israel's disregard for international law. Obviously there needs to be "concessions" made by Hamas (the terrorizing of civilian targets is horrifying) but it doesn't excuse the propagation of violence through the IDF's more "civilized" means of control and oppression.
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~
Oh definitely! Jordan got dumped on with a lot of Palestinians, and no one was prepared to take them on; they were left in encampments, to fend more or less for themselves.

The historical facts, as they are, cannot be used as an excuse for encouraging Israel's disregard for international law. Obviously there needs to be "concessions" made by Hamas (the terrorizing of civilian targets is horrifying) but it doesn't excuse the propagation of violence through the IDF's more "civilized" means of control and oppression.


If international law was observed they would never have been slaughtered and killed in europe. If international law had been followed there would never have been a need for Israel to be created in the first place. The government of Israel has had to fight for its land and its exisistance constantly since they established the territory. The reality is that they don't care or trust any other world group. There military does there job well, and they will use it as they see fit.

If it were only Hammas, or Fatah or Hezbullah or the PLO or the PA this would have long been solved. Unfortunately if any one group wins some if not all of the others looses. Thus Sharon was quite true when he said Arafat was no longer in control and no longer representing the Palestinian people. Arafat only spoke for a small number of the para-militaries and had no ability to cause any effect in the others.

Every time he arrested a bomber in PA controlled areas, he increased the hate of his "liberation movement". (I'm not going to call any of them terrorists anymore, unless they are actually guilty of a terrorist act (like arafat)) He reduced his support amongst one group while he gained little. Nobody on the face of the planet can say they legitimately speak for palestine, and the para-military groups working and controlling the towns have no reason to abide by anything.

Arafat and all the agreements are great but they don't change anything. The problem with each and every peace agreement so far is the same thing. Palestine isn't ready to be a state. What police they have aren't just guilty of crimes against Israel, many of them are just as guilty at home.

Even assuming a full jewish pullout to the green line doesn't change the fact the Palestine and Gaza are the domain of foreign groups and foreign money who are ruling by the gun. The people didn't declare un uprising, Arafat as there leader never decalared an uprising.

The line should be the green line, An impartial force needs to be deployed in Palestine to begin building law and order. The wall makes sence in the short run (25 years) to begin the negotiations. But at this point and for the last 8 years its not like there was anyone to hand control over to that could actually run the country and stop the paramilitary rule.

Palestine is unfortunate in that there can be no winner in the negotiation, and Israel has no reason or desire to lose.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
^^^ k.

But, Ditto, that still doesn't change anything in terms of Israel's disregard for international law and human rights abuses.

I'm not sure what you were really trying to say there. You seem to say a lot in order to say nothing. No offense, it just isn't coming out very clearly....

For example:

If international law had been followed there would never have been a need for Israel to be created in the first place. The government of Israel has had to fight for its land and its exisistance constantly since they established the territory. The reality is that they don't care or trust any other world group. There military does there job well, and they will use it as they see fit.

What does that have to do with Israel's disregard for international law? Or human rights abuses? Are you saying that because their "existence" has been threatened "constantly" that they are excused from behaving like a compassionate government?

Or how about his:

Arafat and all the agreements are great but they don't change anything. The problem with each and every peace agreement so far is the same thing. Palestine isn't ready to be a state. What police they have aren't just guilty of crimes against Israel, many of them are just as guilty at home.

What kind of unqualified bullshit is that? "Palestine isn't ready to be a state". HAHA! How about this: "The United States isn't ready to be a democracy."

And furthermore, even if that question was actually answerable, it would do nothing toward justifying Israel's disgusting abuses of international law and human rights...

The line should be the green line, An impartial force needs to be deployed in Palestine to begin building law and order. The wall makes sence in the short run (25 years) to begin the negotiations. But at this point and for the last 8 years its not like there was anyone to hand control over to that could actually run the country and stop the paramilitary rule.

Hey, I'm all for a wall; I mean, if the little kiddies want to build a big, bad, mean-looking wall because they think that will actually [i[solve[/i] the problem, fine. However, they should get the fuck out of the occupied territories. It's that simple.

Just pull out of the occupied territories, and see what happens. *cue beatnik* Yes, dear, I know, I know: "It won't work", right?
 

Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
I'm saying that having witnessed the world ignore there near extermination new Jew in Israel is about to bow to any international court. Pass all the judgements you want on them they are going to ignore them. Sanctions and threats mean nothing, international damnation is the situation they are already in.

Inheritly Canada, France and the entire G8 wagging its finger at Israel isn't going to effect them. Why would Israel stand and be lectured on political freedoms by the likes of Syria, Iran and Egypt, its laughable.

Have your trial in the Hague, unless your willing to put police in Palestine and stop the bombers why would Israel give a rat fuck what you say. From Israel's perspective none of us are offering a solution or for that matter anything else, so why give a damn what we say.

Why agree to the green line when you have to provide water sewage and police on both sides of the line anyway. Hell might as well draw a nerw more convient line.

Although the Palestinians are most deffinately a people and deserving of there statehood. Until they are able to act as a state and provide security beyond the level of armed gangs they don't have the ability to be treated as one.

A choice has to be made, either Israel is to pay for its occupation and provide its conquered citizens with rights within its society. Or a new state needs to be created. If its a new state thast needs to be created than the warlords and thugs have to be dealt with, if intigration is the choice than the exact same thing has to happen.

Regardless the only logical first step is the disarment and creati0on of an authority. Without this you simply can't create a state. Every peace agreement and road map has hinged on this simple fact. Each and every time one of the groups in Palestine has violated this basic principle.

Israel has been saying the same message for the last 20 years. Why do none of us listen to it?
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Originally posted by ~atp~

Just pull out of the occupied territories, and see what happens. *cue beatnik* Yes, dear, I know, I know: "It won't work", right?

And leave who in control? They don't have a police force, it would by anarchy and a fight for power. A pull out without a replacement force of some kind would most likely lead to a slaughter, Next off if the major paramilitaries don't agree to the green line (and they don't) than how do you enforce it.

Its not like Palestine is some unified political and religous group. They are and have been fighting amongst themselves as long as any other group of people.
 

~atp~

TRIBE Member
Although the Palestinians are most deffinately a people and deserving of there statehood. Until they are able to act as a state and provide security beyond the level of armed gangs they don't have the ability to be treated as one.

What the fuck?!?!

Are you saying that because Palestine is unable to "act as a state and provide [proper] security" that they shouldn't be treated as a state???
 
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