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Israel and Obama sitting in a tree...

Discussion in 'Politics (deprecated)' started by mondo, May 29, 2010.

  1. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    Israel rejects Middle East nuclear talks plan

    29 May 2010 18:45 UK

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli leaders do not comment on the country's nuclear status

    Israel says it will not take part in a conference aimed at achieving a nuclear-arms free Middle East, proposed at a UN meeting in New York.

    Nearly 200 nations, signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), backed plans for the meeting in 2012.

    In a document agreed at the talks, Israel was singled out for criticism.

    Israel, which has not signed the NPT, dismissed the document as "deeply flawed" and "hypocritical".

    "It ignores the realities of the Middle East and the real threats facing the region and the entire world," the Israeli government said in a statement quoted by the AFP news agency.

    We strongly oppose efforts to single out Israel, and will oppose actions that jeopardise Israel's national security.

    "Given the distorted nature of this resolution, Israel will not be able to take part in its implementation."

    The statement was issued in Canada, where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is visiting.

    In the past, the Israeli government has refused to comment on rumours that Israel has a stockpile of nuclear weapons.

    In April, Mr Netanyahu pulled out of a US summit on nuclear arms after learning that Egypt and Turkey intended to raise the issue.
    'Insignificant' document

    Some 189 nations agreed to the 28-page document following a month-long conference on strengthening the NPT, the cornerstone of global disarmament efforts.

    The document urged Israel to sign the NPT, but did not mention Iran, a nation widely suspected of having a nuclear-weapons programme.

    Analysts say this was a diplomatic victory for Iran, which denies seeking a nuclear weapon.

    The US was among the nations who agreed the document, but President Barack Obama warned that he did not agree with Israel's treatment.

    "We strongly oppose efforts to single out Israel, and will oppose actions that jeopardise Israel's national security," he said.

    Israel's Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon promised that his country's co-operation with the US would remain unchanged, but he condemned the document as "insignificant".

    "Iran has signed [the treaty], Iraq has signed it... Syria has signed it, and we see that it hasn't stopped them from seriously breaking the treaty and from trying to bypass it," he said.

    Israel also questioned why India and Pakistan - declared nuclear states who have not signed the treaty - were not singled out for mention.
  2. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    ...Obama and a zionist sitting in a tree, cont'd:

    Rahm Emanuel's Father Specialized in Bus Bombings


    (May 13, 2010) A well-placed British source informed WMR that Rahm Emanuel's father, Benjamin Emanuel, specialized in the terrorist bombings of buses carrying British troops and policemen during the British Mandate in Palestine.

    British MI-6 files contain information on the elder Emanuel's participation in the terrorist activities of Irgun Zvai Leumi, a Jewish terrorist organization that targeted British forces, UN officials, and Palestinian Arabs in the lead up to Israeli independence in 1948.

    Benjamin Emanuel, a Jew from Russia whose real name was Ezekiel Auerbach, was arrested by British police for terrorist activities in the months prior to Israeli independence. Many of the British policemen killed by Emanuel and his Irgun colleagues between 1947 and 1948 had been transferred to Palestine upon Indian and Pakistani independence in 1947. Irgun saw the increase of British policemen from the Indian subcontinent as a major threat.

    The Jewish terrorist murders of British troops and policemen resulted in massive anti-Jewish riots in London, Liverpool, Glasgow, Manchester, and Cardiff in 1947.
  3. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    Benjamin Emanuel discussed the potential impact of his son’s new position on U.S.-Israeli relations.

    “Obviously he’ll influence the president to be pro-Israel. Why wouldn’t he? What is he, an Arab? He’s not going to be mopping floors at the White House,” the elder Mr. Emanuel told the Israeli daily Ma’ariv, according to English-language reports in The Jerusalem Post and The Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
  4. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

    31 May 2010 6:37 UK

    Picture appearing to show injured passenger TV footage appeared to show injuries on board the ship

    The Israeli navy has stormed one of six ships carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza strip, with at least two people reported killed.

    Israel's Channel 10 private TV puts the death toll at about 14. Israel has so far declined to comment.

    The exact location of the interception is unclear. Israel had warned the ships not to enter its territorial waters.

    The ships are carrying 10,000 tonnes of aid to the Gaza Strip in an effort to break an Israeli blockade.

    Turkish TV pictures taken on board the Turkish ship leading the flotilla show Israeli soldiers fighting to control passengers.

    The footage showed a number of people, apparently injured, lying on the ground. The sound of gunshots could be heard. It is not clear whether the fighting is ongoing.

    Al-Jazeera TV reported from the same ship that Israeli navy forces had fired and boarded the vessel, wounding the captain.

    The Al-Jazeera broadcast ended with a voice shouting in Hebrew, "Everybody shut up!"

    Organisers of the flotilla say at least 30 people were wounded in the incident.

    The six-ship flotilla left international waters off the coast of Cyprus on Sunday and was expected to arrive in Gaza later on Monday.

    Israel has said it would stop the boats, calling the campaign a "provocation intended to delegitimise Israel".

    An economic blockade was imposed by Israel after the Islamist movement Hamas took power in Gaza.

    Israel says it allows about 15,000 tones of humanitarian aid into Gaza every week.

    But the United Nations says this is less than a quarter of what is needed.
  5. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    Obfuscation anyone?

    Friday, Jun 4, 2010 08:05 ET

    How Israeli propaganda shaped U.S. media coverage of the flotilla attack

    By Glenn Greenwald

    It was clear from the moment news of the flotilla attack emerged that Israel was taking extreme steps to suppress all evidence about what happened other than its own official version. They detained the flotilla passengers and barred the media from speaking with them, thus, as The NYT put it, "refusing to permit journalists access to witnesses who might contradict Israel's version of events." They detained the journalists who were on the ship for days and seized their film, video and cameras. And worst of all, the IDF -- while still refusing to disclose the full, unedited, raw footage of the incident -- quickly released an extremely edited video of their commandos landing on the ship, which failed even to address, let alone refute, the claim of the passengers: that the Israelis were shooting at the ship before the commandos were on board.

    This campaign of suppression and propaganda worked to shape American media coverage (as state propaganda campaigns virtually always work on the gullible, authority-revering American media). The edited IDF video was shown over and over on American television without question or challenge. Israeli officials and Israel-devoted commentators appeared all over television -- almost always unaccompanied by any Turkish, Palestinian or Muslim critics of the raid -- to spout the Israeli version without opposition. Israel-centric pundits in America claimed, based on the edited IDF video, that anyone was lying who even reported on the statements of the passengers that Israeli fired first. In sum, that the Israelis used force only after the passengers attacked the commandos became Unquestioned Truth in American discourse.

    But now that the passengers and journalists have been released from Israeli detention and are speaking out, a much different story is emerging. As I noted yesterday, numerous witnesses and journalists are describing Israeli acts of aggression, including the shooting of live ammunition, before the commandos landed. The New York Times blogger Robert Mackey today commendably compiles that evidence -- I recommend it highly -- and he writes: "now that the accounts of activists and journalists who were detained by Israel after the raid are starting to be heard, it is clear that their stories and that of the Israeli military do not match in many ways." As Juan Cole says: "Many passengers have now confirmed that they were fired on even before the commandos had boots on the deck. Presumably it is this suppressive fire that killed or wounded some passengers and which provoked an angry reaction and an attack on the commandos."

    Whether the Israelis fired at the passengers before or after landing on the ship matters little to the crux of what happened here. The initial act of aggression was the Israeli seizing of a ship in international waters which was doing nothing hostile; that action was taken to enforce a horrific, inhumane blockade and, more generally, a brutal, decades-long occupation; and whatever else is true, at least nine civilians were killed by the Israeli Navy, only the latest example of Israel (and the U.S.) using massive military force against civilians.

    But this incident illustrates -- yet again -- the eagerness of the American media to "report" on events by doing nothing but mindlessly repeating official government claims. How many of the TV hosts who paraded Israeli officials in front of their audiences all week will put these witnesses on their shows to narrate their version of events? Devotees to Israel have already been convinced that this ship was full of Terrorists and Terrorist-lovers (meaning: anyone who opposes Israeli policy), so anything these passengers say (indeed, anyone who disputes the Israeli version of events) will be automatically dismissed as unreliable -- just as Muslim villagers who claim that the U.S. military kills civilians (rather than "militants") are, for that reason alone, deemed suspect, and just as individuals who denied reports about Iraqi WMDs before the war were deemed suspect for that reason alone. But for those who are not committed to defending Israel no matter what it does, these witnesses deserve to be heard every bit as much as Israeli officials.

    Nobody's claims are entitled to an automatic assumption of truth, including these passengers. But as Mackey argues, all of this compellingly underscores the need for an independent -- not an Israeli-led -- investigation. Mackey quotes Israeli journalist and blogger Noam Sheifaz:

    Israel has confiscated some of the most important material for the investigation, namely the films, audio and photos taken by the passengers [and] journalists on board and the Mavi Marmara’s security cameras. Since yesterday, Israel has been editing these films and using them for its own PR campaign. In other words, Israel has already confiscated most of the evidence, held it from the world and tampered with it. No court in the world would [trust] it to be the one examining it.

    Just as is true for the U.S. on so many occasions, Israel has made unmistakably clear that it is interested only in propagandizing and obfuscating. The very idea that they can be trusted to reveal what actually happened is ludicrous on its face.

    * * * * *

    One of the more disturbing -- though predictable -- developments this week is the effort to suggest that Furkan Dogan, the 19-year-old American killed by the Israelis with four bullets to the head and one to the chest, is not a "real citizen." That, of course, tracks the prior Joe-Lieberman-led proposal to strip Americans of their citizenship (now being replicated in Israel) and the Obama administration's targeting of Americans for due-process-free assassinations. We now have at least two classes of citizenship: "real citizens" and "not really citizens." John Cole says all that needs to be said about this disgusting suggestion.

    And for those who haven't done so, see my post from yesterday on the role that rank tribalism plays in causing so many Americans to remain devoted to justifying whatever Israel does.

    UPDATE: Numerous eyewitness accounts of what happened continue to emerge, and Steve Hynd and this blog both have very helpful compilations of these latest testimonies.

    As for propaganda: there are two claims being made frequently that can only be described as pure lies. The first is that Israel's blockade is devoted to keeping arms out of Gaza (see this explanation from Peter Beinart, as quoted in the last two paragraphs of this FAIR post, regarding the countless items that the Israelis prevent from entering Gaza that have no remote connection to weapons, as well as what Israeli officials themselves have said is the real purpose of the blockade; see also: this chart from The Economist showing what the Israelis are really barring from Gaza); and second is the claim that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza caused by the blockade (see this Foreign Policy post from today documenting the devastating humanitarian effects of the blockade).
  6. Hipsterave

    Hipsterave TRIBE Promoter

    Special Alert: Boats, Bias and Big Lies videos at the link
    Special Alert: Boats, Bias and Big Lies
    A simple click can help win the battle and turn the tide of public opinion and media reporting of the Gaza flotilla incident.

    In some of the latest video footage released by the IDF, it is clear that the Israeli naval commandos were certainly unprepared for the violence they encountered, including being attacked with live fire.

    - Real weapons, real weapons!

    - They have real weapons?

    - Yes, yes, real weapons. They are firing on us!

    It's not too late to counter the wave of anti-Israel sentiment unleashed by the events surrounding the boarding of the Turkish Mavi Marnara ship and the deaths of nine of its passengers. For the claims of so-called "peace activists" that they were unarmed and non-violent victims of Israeli brutality is laughable in the face of the openly available video evidence taken during the incident.

    Jerusalem Post editor-in-chief David Horovitz explains the powerful effect of the IDF's video footage:

    for some of the foreign press, who had been less willing to accept [IDF Spokesman] Benayahu's improbable account of commandos overpowered by civilians, the footage was a revelation.

    "I saw it, and I realized I had done Israel an injustice," one of my foreign colleagues said on Monday, with admirable candor. "At that point, and only at that point, I understood what the Israelis had been saying."

    The IDF videos reveal the truth about what took place. But we can't rely on the media to spread the word to the general public. We must make every effort to forward the videos and updates to our networks and post them across the Internet.

    Media Unable to Ignore the Evidence

    When confronted with the compelling video evidence, many media outlets (though not all) have been unable to bat away the images of Israeli soldiers attacked with clubs, iron poles and knives.

    The UK's Channel 4 News invited a British naval analyst and counter-terror expert to analyze IDF footage:

    Peace Activism or Military Preparations?

    Since when do "peace activists" have access to sophisticated night vision equipment, rifle scopes and bullet proof vests? These photos taken by the IDF of items found on board the Mavi Marnara would indicate that the portrayal of non-violent humanitarians interested only in distributing aid to Gaza is thoroughly inaccurate.

    The equipment, along with the clubs and knives found by the IDF on board the Mavi Marnara is evidence of the premeditated nature of the violence perpetrated by those on board.

    The photo above shows one of the electric saws used to saw metal rods off of the Marnara's deck. These rods were used to attack the Israeli soldiers boarding the ship.

    Activists even threw stun grenades as this footage shows.

    In addition, large quantities of cash were found on board ready to be transferred to Hamas upon landing in Gaza. The Turkish IHH organization responsible for the Mavi Marnara is an open supporter of Hamas and has been implicated in the recruitment and funding of Islamic terrorism, including al-Qaeda. (See here for more information.)
    What Happens Now?

    The flotilla's cargo is being off-loaded in Ashdod and the humanitarian items transferred overland to Gaza in accordance with standard operating procedures while the participants of the flotilla are to be repatriated as expediently as possible.

    Israel does not prevent aid from reaching Gaza via established land-based crossings and there is no lack of humanitarian aid to the Strip. Israel repeatedly proposed that the flotilla organizers land in the port of Ashdod and transfer their aid to Gaza through the existing overland crossings. Had the aid been delivered directly to Ashdod in the first place, as Israel offered, the entire tragic incident could have been avoided.
  7. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    * Latest update 20:04 06.06.10

    Israel Navy reserves officers: Allow external Gaza flotilla probe

    Officers denounce operation as 'military and diplomatic failure', slam government for placing blame on the activists.

    By Anshel Pfeffer

    A group of top Israel Navy reserves officers on Sunday publicly called on Israel to allow an external probe into its commando raid of a Gaza-bound humanitarian aid flotilla last week, which left nine people dead and several more wounded.

    In a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, the Navy officers denounced the commando raid as having "ended in tragedy both at the military and diplomatic levels."

    "We disagree with the widespread claims that this was the result of an intelligence rift," said the officers. "In addition, we do not accept claims that this was a 'public relations failure' and we think that the plan was doomed to failure from the beginning."

    "First and foremost, we protest the fact that responsibility for the tragic results was immediately thrust onto the organizers of the flotilla," wrote the officers. "This demonstrates contempt for the responsibility that belongs principally to the hierarchy of commanders and those who approved the mission. This shows contempt for the values of professionalism, the purity of weapons and for human lives."

    The Navy officers' letter came as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was convening his top ministers to deliberate a United Nations proposal to create a joint international committee alongside Turkey and the United States to investigate the circumstances of the deadly raid.

    The cabinet was also to discuss the creation of an internal committee to look into the incident. Netanyahu earlier Sunday rejected the idea of an international panel, and reiterated that Israel had the right to conduct its own investigation.

    Netanyahu discussed the proposal for a multinational panel with United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon in a telephone call on Saturday but told cabinet ministers fon Sunday that Israel was exploring other options, political sources said.

    "I told [Ban] that the investigation of the facts must be carried out responsibly and objectively," Netanyahu told ministers. "We need to consider the issue carefully and level-headedly, while maintaining Israel's national interests as well as those of the Israel Defense Forces."
  8. acheron

    acheron TRIBE Member

    Ok so they're in international waters... Someone starts attacking them. Do you really expect them to welcome the IDF, who are armed to the teeth, with open arms?
  9. Hipsterave

    Hipsterave TRIBE Promoter


    when I was in Israel we met with a group of teens that were part of the IDF Navy and they had just 2 days prior stopped a "Humanitarian aid ship" that was heading for Gaza. It was full of rockets and weapons.

    In this case the ship was asked to dock at a checkpoint and avoided it on purpose. So the IDF went in to find out why.
  10. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    Video Proof: Israeli Commandos Shoot First

    Contributed by Grant Lawrence (Reporter)
    Tuesday, June 01, 2010 7:38

    Gaza girl killed by Israeli forces in the Isra...Image via Wikipedia

    By Grant Lawrence

    Poor Israeli Commandos.

    They use concussion bombs and fire at innocent civilians in a raid on Peace ships carrying humanitarian aid in international waters and a few Turks, it appears, may have fought back. Israel admits that all of the cargo taken from the ships was humanitarian in nature.

    In a strange move that no one has any explanation for, the peaceful people on board one ship acted to protect themselves.

    According to the Israelis they had knives and sticks. As any reasonable person knows this is comparable to machine guns and bombs.

    But the lying spin of the Israelis is not accepted by the world and only accepted here in the United States by the most ignorant of Americans. If the Israelis have been telling the truth then they would not be withholding information and covering up the dead and injured. They have had a near blackout on the incident and have only allowed their spin machine to spin the information.

    The illegal blockade by the Israelis has been called an "abomination" by Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Rev. Desmond Tutu.

    ....He strongly condemned what he called international "silence and complicity" on the blockade, which he compared to the actions of Burma's leaders. ...(source: bbc)

    Tutu should know abominations since he had to deal with the rogue South African nation. In many ways Israel is like the former racist regime of South Africa. Both countries have been hated world wide and both countries have engaged in apartheid. Israel even has an apartheid wall. But Israel is a little different in that it is a theocratic state much like Iran.

    So Israelis say the massacre of innocent peace activists was necessary because they had knives. But according to the video below, it appears the Israeli commandos fired upon the ships before even boarding them.

    ....in raw video captured by an Al Jazeera producer and published to YouTube late Monday, two journalists provide a play-by-play of the harrowing event as pops and cracks echo in the background. Even before the Israeli forces were aboard, one says, they were pelting the boat with tear gas and stun grenades, injuring numerous people.

    Then he confirms the first death, saying the individual was killed by "munitions," but not specifying whether it was a bullet or something else. Then he confirms that Israeli forces were boarding the ship....(source: raw story)

    Poor Israeli Commandos.

    They had to kill 10 or 20 peace activists and injure 50 to a 100 more because sometimes people try to defend themselves from being murdered.
  11. Hipsterave

    Hipsterave TRIBE Promoter

    James Lee aka Mondo we get it you dont like israel or maybe its just jews in general you dont like.
    you missed the entire point of my response. These terrorist groups put civillians in front of them hoping for casualties to bring sympathy to their cause. its a tactic they have used forever and its really sick.

    The ship was specifically told check in at a check point and they refused.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2010
  12. Hipsterave

    Hipsterave TRIBE Promoter

    I may have gone a bit overboard there. insert delete comment 1 post up.
  13. kyfe

    kyfe TRIBE Member

    Hipsterave you really do love your heritage don't you. the fact that you can spew the shit you do not only amazes me but it also shows me your true colours.

    the fact remains and you continue to overlook that this was a ship attacked in international waters by Israeli military, not in Israeli waters. Now to put this into some form you can understand and relate to, what if someone enters your home unwelcomed and without proper notification and to top it off they have a car out front full of friends throwing rocks and firing pellet guns at your home.

    do you attack the intruder or welcome him in?

    I'm growing really tired of the US and Israel controlling the media and the slants it provides I'm also ashamed that Israel hasn't learned from it's own past and has become so paranoid that it resorts to similar actions that were used against them in the past. There is nothing for you to defend here, Israel was grossly wrong in what they had done and had this been off the coast of Africa we'd be calling them Pirates. Either way I hope Israel gets what is coming to them or learns soon that what they are doing is not going to achieve any semblance of peace.

    I fell for the Israeli people the same way I feel for the American people, they are blind sheep led by a Zionist agenda.
  14. Hipsterave

    Hipsterave TRIBE Promoter

    or how bout a scenario where you live in a place that is always under threat from all your neighbors 360 degrees around your house. Where the families teach their kids to throw stones at your house. you want the stones to stop coming and you realize that behind your neighbors are more neighbors (Iran, saudi arabia etc) that are supplying your immediate neighbors with dump trucks of stones disguised as candy. Would you not try to stop the dump trucks from reaching your neighbors or would you say please have all the stones you like so you can toss them at my house?
  15. kyfe

    kyfe TRIBE Member

    the honest answer would be to move, but I understand that's not the reality nor is it fair for everyone.

    Either way that's not the scenario, stop bringing up the past and justifing actions taken today that give Israel the right to become the aggressor. Logically you walk away in a fight but Israel is going outside of their bounds as a nation. This isn't the first instance like this not even in the past 5 years forget about the past 100. They hate each other I get it, but stopping foreign aid from getting to civilians that need it is not only inexcusable it's in humane. Does that sound familiar? There is value in every life and sadly based on the actions of the Israeli gov't they have decided there is no value in a Palestinian life because they have been attacked by Palestinians. You cannot paint an entire country and it's people with the same brush nor can you justify Israel's actions based on that of the Palestinians gov't.

    I know you don't get it and that's cool, just don't think Israel is doing the right thing unless their plan is to eradicate the planet of Palestinians because that's the only way I can see their actions helping the situation.
  16. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    Well Hipsterave all I'll say is that as someone who is Jewish and feels an attachment to Israel as most Jews do that your interpretation of things is at least understandable (from that perspective). We can leave aside the fact there are plenty of Jews who also feel an attachment to Israel that take a different view of things from you - because it is only natural that people like yourself exist and take the line you do in defense of their country and/or homeland.

    All that being said, I will just say that I think its probably a stretch to suggest that mondo has anything particularly against jews - look at the posting history.

    This is an individual steeped in conspiracy lore: from the NWO, Jesuit/Papal conspiracy, 9/11 and everything in between, mondo has gone down the rabbit hole. You'll of course notice that this conspiracy underground has an anti-zionist bent (much as the anti-imperialist set have, there is some overlap) but I would hazard a guess that 95% of these people bear no animous towards Jews on a racial level and that their anti-zionism is more closely rooted in a general distrust of world power, the greatest of which is the US (the benefactor and protector of the Israeli state). Now, I will grant that buried in the talk of "banksters" and the alleged role of "ashkenazi jews" in the formation of the NWO is a thread that goes back to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and even further back than that to historical anti-semitism, but the plain fact is most of the tinfoil hat crew are either unaware of this legacy in their favoured materials and/or convinced that they can traffic in that kind of talk and still not be racist or prejudiced against jews. My sister for example, completely unracist, has spoken of worries about no jews dying on 9/11 after being indoctrinated in Conspiracy Lore by her now-husband.

    No jew-haters either of them, just innocents in the wood who found a path they were unaware came from a nasty place. At this point we can maybe split hairs and suggest that they are maybe "unconsciously racist", but I prefer to believe they are just misguided and led down an errant path by others who have bought into a way of looking at the world that places all the woes of the world at the hands of a tiny few - a sizeable % of which are either jewish or zionist. It is a minority of this tinfoil minority that is genuinely racist.
  17. Hipsterave

    Hipsterave TRIBE Promoter

    "All that being said, I will just say that I think its probably a stretch to suggest that mondo has anything particularly against jews - look at the posting history."

    ya i take that back and apologize for the comment. was more than 5 min before i re-read it and was like did I really say that.
  18. praktik

    praktik TRIBE Member

    WEll to be honest looking at some of the material in those circles its not an outrageous conclusion to be drawn...:) not sure there was much of that in this thread though.
  19. judge wopner

    judge wopner TRIBE Member

    very difficult situation to get the facts and issues straight. i keep reading different accounts and different number of injured and killed.

    what we can reasonably be certain of and what questions come to mind w/ whats happened:

    1. interesting situation where isreali supporters accuse opposing sides of an overt or unconscious antisemitism. even those genuinely not antisemitic are being charged with supporting a deep seated hatred of jews based on historical president.

    sounds oddly familiar to those who claim much of the criticism directed at president obama is lacking objectivity and therefore the product of a deep seeded racism.

    i wonder at what point when rational and reasonable criticism, supported by facts is considered at face value, free of vauge claims of prejudice simply because theres always someone on the extreme end to scream the loudest and make an ass of themselves.

    2. there were from what i understand 5-6 ships part of the first convoy of ships that were all peacefully diverted to a port for inspection. why did one ship refuse to dock? werent they all there on the same mission, was this planned? whats the point of all docking accept for one?

    3. the fact that this ship was in international waters is immaterial to the issue of how the people on board were treated. we know that shooting people was both savage and avoidable, why did things escalate to this point? those supporting the turkish actions should avoid their pathetic attempts at justifying anything via incorrect accounts of maritime law. any ship w/ prestated intentions to violate a naval blockade can be diverted and/or boarded if no other option is plausable.

    the canadian navy does this all the time while searching for pirate ships in the gulf.

    4. sending armed soldiers on board was essentially asking to escalate a situation that would result in the deaths of those on board. that being said, it is clear from video evidence that people on board werent "defending" themselves as much as they were actors in agitative action that escalated out of control. there is clear evidence that people were shot well before troops boarded the ships. this may have occurred from helicopters and may have been the reason why people turned on the soldiers with sticks so fast when they boarded.

    this was a fuck up plain and simple by isreali forces, but one has to question the legitimacy of sending a ship through a naval blockade in this manner, what exactly would any navy have done in a similar example when a ship refused to be sent to a different port? isnt this like trying to train a tiger?

    5. theres always a difficult equivalence game at play, some will ask "is isreal really deserving of such criticism considering some of the despot nations surrounding it?" or "is this really the best way to go about change when 1000 people a day are killed in the congo and no one is sending ships over there?", and others will take the apartheid side and remind isreal that sanctions and actions against south africa not only worked but were done at a time when there were genocides occurring in other nations and that such deferential approaches mean nothing when eventually they realized the dangers of their policies towards the black majority.

    i see where most people are coming from on their criticism of isreal, it appears pointless and cruel to block aid into gaza under the tired old pretense of weapons and terrorism. but i cant help but wonder at time how much subconscious antisemitism is actually at play, especially in the minds of many muslims who seem to take the actions of isreal to heart more than the despots of their own nations who have succeed in killing and enslaving millions of their country-men for decades as well.

    its a tough divide. im forever curious why Pakistanis protest outside the isreali embassy in numbers over the treatment of Palestinians but never outside their own consulate for the treatment of women killed or crippled in honour killings. im always wondering why it is that left-leaning types are so consistently pro-Palestinian and so quickly accuse others of islamaphobia while being against homophobia and gender-based oppression, 2 things rife in muslim majority nations.

    im also curious why isreali supporters love to focus on the most extreme and antisemitic arms of any criticism in order to portray their opposition as unreasonable.

    lets not reduce this entire situation to these pointless sort of conclusive narratives like "the ship was attacked in international waters" or "isreal was defending itself from terrorism", both seem to miss the grey area of the entire situation.

    ultimately for those so deeply convinced that the blockade in Gaza is wrong, any action no matter how harsh or violent would be acceptable against isreal for what its doing. so lets not humour ourselves into thinking that there is a line that cant be crossed when one wants to protest, had the passengers used live fire against isreali ships and even shot down a helicopter, the same folks would haul out the "they were in international waters" line anyway. so the sad result and deaths that occurred would have been met with the same indignation and shock no matter what the video evidence revealed.

    isreal likewise would have portrayed themselves as biblical warriors fending off the ottoman hoards. all because they cant let enough supplies into gaza, while even a large % of isreali's themselves support more aid to gaza and an end to the sanctions. it seems those most removed from teh actual situation are most extreme in their feelings towards the situation, the arm-chair marxists and muslims who left the mid-east but blame most of its problems on jews and the US and the jewish disaspora harboring fantasies of a united defense of their homeland.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2010
  20. Hispeeddub

    Hispeeddub TRIBE Member

  21. kyfe

    kyfe TRIBE Member

  22. Hispeeddub

    Hispeeddub TRIBE Member

  23. derek

    derek TRIBE Member

    fire a shot off the bow of the ship?

    they were unarmed, at no point did they open fire on the israeli navy. the israeli navy could have easily blocked their entry, and waited until they could have boarded the ship during the day.

    some people are just trigger happy. there's simply no justification for what happened other than hatred and stupidity.

    the supply boat should've backed off though, everyone knows israeli forces are quick on the trigger, and i have no doubt they were both instigating an int'l incident. too bad for them israel almost always takes the bait, and will get away with it.
  24. mondo

    mondo TRIBE Promoter

    ...a nation can act with impunity if you have the backing of a monster. Especially if that monster gave birth to that nation.
  25. Hipsterave

    Hipsterave TRIBE Promoter

    It wasnt the US that declared israel a state it was the British.

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