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Gaza explodes, Israel helps blow things up

praktik

TRIBE Member
I agree - things get out of hand quite easily. when I started posting in the politics room the 2nd intifada was in full swing and it really got the passions up in everybody.

There were a few posters I despised and ended up liking more later when it turned out we had more common ground when we weren't discussing Israel..;)
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
Israel's Gaza Strategy

Martin Kramer

In the fog of war, it isn't just the truth that falls casualty. So does common sense. Quite a few pundits seem to think that Israel lacks a strategy in Gaza. But unlike the Lebanon war of 2006, this war has been planned in advance, and every stage has been war-gamed. Here is my read of Israel's strategic plan, which lies behind "Operation Cast Lead."

Israel's long-term strategic goal is the elimination of Hamas control of Gaza. This is especially the goal of the Kadima and Labor parties, which are distinguished by their commitment to a negotiated final status agreement with the Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas. The Hamas takeover in Gaza reduced Abbas to a provincial governor, who no longer represents effective authority in all the areas destined for a future Palestinian state. Hamas rule in Gaza is a bone in the throat of the "peace process"—one Israel is determined to remove.

Struggle over Sanctions. But how? After the Hamas takeover in June 2007, Israel imposed a regime of economic sanctions on Gaza, by constricting the flow of goods and materials into Gaza via its crossings to Israel. The idea was gradually to undermine the popularity of Hamas in Gaza, while at the same time bolstering Abbas. Israel enjoyed considerable success in this approach. While the diplomatic "peace process" with Abbas didn't move very far, the West Bank enjoyed an economic boomlet, as Israel removed checkpoints and facilitated the movement of capital, goods, workers, and foreign tourists. So while Gaza languished under sanctions, with zero growth, the West Bank visibly prospered—reinforcing the message that "Islamic resistance" is a dead end.

Hamas in power, from the outset, sought to break out of what it has called the Israeli "siege" by firing rockets into Israel. Its quid pro quo was an end to Hamas rocket fire in exchange for a lifting of the Israeli "siege." When Israel and Hamas reached an agreement for "calm" last June, Hamas hoped the sanctions would be lifted as well, and Israel did increase the flow through the crossing points, by about 50 percent. Fuel supplies were restored to previous levels. But Hamas was fully aware that sanctions were slowly eroding its base and contradicting its narrative that “resistance” pays. This is why it refused to renew the "calm" agreement after its six-month expiration, and renewed rocket fire.

Were Israel to lift the economic sanctions, it would transform Hamas control of Gaza into a permanent fact, solidify the division of the West Bank and Gaza, and undermine both Israel and Abbas by showing that violent "resistance" to Israel produces better results than peaceful compromise and cooperation. Rewarding "resistance" just produces more of it. So Israel's war aim is very straightforward, and it is not simply a total cease-fire. At the very least, it is a total cease-fire that also leaves the sanctions against Hamas in place. This would place Israel in an advantageous position to bring about the collapse of Hamas rule sometime in the future—its long-term objective.

Cease-Fire on Israel's Terms. The Israeli operation is meant to impress on Hamas that there is something far worse than the sanctions—that Israel is capable of hunting Hamas on air, sea, and land, at tremendous cost to Hamas and minimal cost to Israel, while much of the world stands by, and parts of it (including some Arabs) quietly applaud. Israel's aim is not to bring down Hamas at this stage, but to compel it to accept a cease-fire on Israel's terms—terms that leave the sanctions in place.

Many Western and Arab governments see the logic of this. They would like to see Abbas and the Palestinian Authority back in authority over Gaza, thus restoring credibility to the "peace process." Because they wish to see Hamas contained if not diminished, they have moved slowly or not at all to respond to calls for action to stop the fighting. The question now is how Israel turns its military moves into political moves that achieve the shared objectives of this coalition of convenience.

A hint of the solution Israel envisions comes from a senior Israeli diplomatic source: "Israel cannot agree that the only party responsible for implementing and regulating the cease-fire be Hamas." Israel's objective is to put another player on the ground in Gaza, which over time would be positioned to undermine Hamas. And since the objective is gradually restoring Gaza to control by Abbas and the Palestinian Authority, it seems logical to assume that this mechanism will be designed to enforce Hamas submission to that authority. Hamas would swallow the pill in the name of "national unity," but it would become beholden to the PA.

It is the PA, for example, which could be reinserted at the Egyptian border crossing at Rafah (as already demanded by Egypt). It is the PA that could be given exclusive control of reconstruction budgets to repair damaged and destroyed ministries, mosques, and homes. (In the eventual reconstruction boom, Israel will hold all the cards: Gaza has no construction materials, and gravel, aggregate, and cement must be trucked in from Israel.) The premise is that if economic sanctions are to be lifted—and post-war Gaza will be desperately in need of all material things—it must only be through the agency of the PA. Finally, PA security forces could be reintroduced in a police capacity, as part of the "national" reconciliation. An envelope for this restoration of the PA could be provided by the international community.

It isn't impossible that Israel would go beyond its declared aims and bring Hamas down if Hamas appeared sufficiently damaged by initial ground operations. If Israeli forces are positioned to do this, and Hamas begins to unravel, the impetus to finish the job would be strong. This could make for a much quicker handoff to the PA, via some internationalized body. Israeli disavowals of interest in this outcome, at this time, should be taken with a grain of salt. Israel won't miss an opportunity if it presents itself.

Possible Complications. What could go wrong with this scenario? A lot. Hamas assumes (probably correctly) that its Palestinian opponents fed Israel with much of the intelligence it needed to wage precision warfare against Hamas. There is likely to be a vicious settling of scores as soon as a cease-fire is in place, if not before, and which could approximate a civil war. This could open space for small groups like Islamic Jihad and other gangs, which could shoot off rockets at their own initiative (or that of Iran). If something can go wrong in Gaza, there is a good chance it will. Much of the aftermath will have to be improvised, and much will depend on how thoroughly Israel has degraded the capabilities of Hamas.

If Hamas remains a player, the biggest risk to Israel is that the mechanism created through diplomacy to "implement and regulate" ends up legitimating Hamas. The temptation to "engage" Hamas has grown in Europe, and even among some Americans, ever since the Hamas victory in the 2006 legislative council elections. As diplomats work to put together a cease-fire mechanism, Hamas will work hard to tempt governments to talk to it, persuading them to skirt the Quartet's insistence that Hamas not be "engaged" until it accepts past PA-Israel agreements, recognizes Israel, and renounces armed struggle.

Legitimation of Hamas could seal the fate of the "peace process," and give "resistance" the reputation of a truly winning strategy. The United States will have to assure that all contact with Hamas runs exclusively through the Egyptians, the Saudis, the Turks, and above all, the PA. Europe and the United States must stay well out of the diplomatic reach of Hamas, until it meets the Quartet conditions—a highly improbable prospect.

Politics Will Return. As with any multi-stage plan, Israel's appears clearer at the outset and fuzzier in the later stages, where consensus dissipates. In particular, the opposition Likud has less confidence in Abbas and the "peace process" as presently configured. While it is adamant about ending Hamas rule in Gaza, it would be much less concerned with restoring the unity of the Palestinians. As Israel achieves its military aims, underlying political differences, now suppressed, are bound to surface, especially as elections are only a month away.

But for now, Israel is united in pursuing its war of demolition against Hamas. Its aim is not only to stop the rockets from falling in southern Israel, but to move a long stride forward toward a change of regime in Gaza
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
I have been watching the live coverage on aljazeera which we have on satellite here in SA (they are the only news organization with live satellite feeds and corespondents in Gaza in the combat zones). The pictures are terrible. The scale of the bomb explosions going off live in these populated areas is very much like the live footage of the initial invasion of Iraq. Huge mushroom clouds and big, big flashes in civilian neighborhoods.

Really sad to see, and you just don't even want to think about the aftermath of those 1000 lb bombs going off in apartment blocks.... All this is being beamed all over the arab world. Israel is going to have centuries of repercussions over this one when the dust settles I reckon.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
alexd said:
Really sad to see, and you just don't even want to think about the aftermath of those 1000 lb bombs going off in apartment blocks.... All this is being beamed all over the arab world. Israel is going to have centuries of repercussions over this one when the dust settles I reckon.

i think reflexively we generally would agree with this kind of logic,
accept i wonder if its a fair remark in terms of history.

most islamic-based terrorism is conducted by people from states that have seen the least violence directed towards it (saudi arabia, yemen, and up until recently pakistan) few are ever from the occupied territories, lebanon or even iran. it seems the victums most affected by isreali aggression arent the majority of soldiers going off on suicide missions.

how many reprisals and generations of violent rebels were spawed by any people's that were preyed upon by a violent and oppresive state?

did people talk of generations of armenians who would continue to fight and kill turks after their near genocide at the turn of the century?

chileans and many other south americans never on balance turned to large-scale violence years after being brutally oppressed by american-backed dictators. even less latino's in the US specifically targeted the country because of their role in latin american coup's and dictatorial regimes. why no reprisals against the US by angry latino's spawned during decades of murderous regimes?

did jews breed generations of children who would grow up to hate germans and pose a continual threat to the german state decades after world war 2?

did polish people behave the same towards russians after centuries of brutal violence and exploitation? why did polish people spawn violent hoards of children, weaned on a hatred of russia so strong that they continually moved to violence after the war?

native americans and canadains have yet to bred a sense of violent back lash generations and generations after being practically wiped out and confined to desparate conditions across the continent.

why is there almost an expectation that violence directed towards "the arab" world will result in escalating violence? i ask this as someone who thinks this already and am trying to come to terms w/ the concept and wonder if there is some sort of arab/islamic stereotyping at work, subtly injected in our collective psyche by a pro-isreali media.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
why is there almost an expectation that violence directed towards "the arab" world will result in escalating violence? i ask this as someone who thinks this already and am trying to come to terms w/ the concept and wonder if there is some sort of arab/islamic stereotyping at work, subtly injected in our collective psyche by a pro-isreali media.

Reading Rashid Khalidi's "Resurrecting Empire" and it starts off with a history of the Middle East going back to the early 19th century in an attempt to show the "other" perspective on events like say, the fall of the Shah, Iraqi "revolts" under British rule and other Western misadventures.

While I think its certainly fair to point out the larger number of extremists that are coming from relatively "peaceful" countries like Yemen and Saudi Arabia I think once you get to a regional level, and start talking about the regional history as a whole, that you can start to see the web of relations that interconnects all the countries there. After all, its not as if SA and Yemen exist in a vacuum (nor are they particularly benign governments with regards to their domestic rule), and it shouldn't be surprising that hot-blooded young men from these countries seek to score their own blow against the Western infidels even if their country isn't on the current Western "Hit List".

Sometimes being on the Western "Friend List", like SA, is enough of an incentive to action!
 
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acheron

TRIBE Member
Given that this is a ultimately a battle of belief - or at least a battle fought with religious difference as the given motive, I don't know if it matters where the combatants come from, they're just going where the fight is - no sense being all riled up to fight when the war's a couple of countries away.
 

Lurker

TRIBE Member
alexd said:
I have been watching the live coverage on aljazeera which we have on satellite here in SA (they are the only news organization with live satellite feeds and corespondents in Gaza in the combat zones). The pictures are terrible. The scale of the bomb explosions going off live in these populated areas is very much like the live footage of the initial invasion of Iraq. Huge mushroom clouds and big, big flashes in civilian neighborhoods.

Really sad to see, and you just don't even want to think about the aftermath of those 1000 lb bombs going off in apartment blocks.... All this is being beamed all over the arab world. Israel is going to have centuries of repercussions over this one when the dust settles I reckon.

Well said. Here in NL, we haven't seen any protests or anything like that yet. The BBC World coverage has been quite thorough and they've always made mention of the fact that their reporters were not being allowed to cross into Gaza even though there's apparently an Israeli Supreme Court order that permits press to cross (BBC has a couple reporters in there already). The Al Jazeera coverage does put a heavy focus onto the sufferin (to be expected and by me saying this is not to say I believe they are embellishing it or anything). I find the BBC to be quite balanced especially when their anchors ask really tough questions to representatives of both sides.

Wopner - really excellent points. It really does put things in perspective with regards to similar situations / conflicts that have occurred elsewhere in the world throughout history. I'm reading a book right now (The Prize, the epic quest for oil, money and power - Daniel Yergin) about the history of oil, and of course it details the century of conflict in the middle east region which revolved around oil revenues since those were what the ruling families depended on for their economies. Because of the history lesson I'm getting from this book, I'm almost surprised that there hasn't been talk of an oil embargo similar to that during the 1973 Yom Kippur war. Especially since the price of oil is in the shitter now anyways.
 

guysmiley

TRIBE Member
Interesting article in Haaretz which underscores the not-so-hidden sub-text of the Gaza offensive. Even more telling are the forum comments below the article written by those who missed the sarcasm...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1051949.html

Hit them where it hurts
By Sayed Kashua
Tags: Sayed Kashua, Israel News

Before I start writing, let me inform you up front that I love you dearly. I would like to warmly embrace the inhabitants of the south - Arabs not included - and dedicate this festive column to them. The spectacular demonstrations in Gaza have only contributed to our feelings of a shared fate, Arabs living in the Land of Israel and the Jewish people. Let those among my Arab brethren who want to demonstrate, demonstrate, and those who want to wax bellicose, wax bellicose, but reality is stronger than words, and the fact is that terrorists do not distinguish between Arab blood and Jewish blood, as is attested by the Arab victims felled by missiles fired with the aim of striking at innocent people.

Moreover, allow me to commiserate with the bereaved families and to declare from this platform that in addition to the two families from Sderot whom we are hosting in our home now, members of my family and I are ready to host two more families from the area under bombardment. We can be contacted through the newspaper's editorial offices.

On this rare occasion, I want to strengthen the hand of our leaders, policymakers and commanders. You earned this war honestly. It is the duty of a normal country like Israel to defend its residents in the face of a prolonged threat that is embittering the lives of more than half a million residents. I apologize to my Arab readers who do not share my attitude, but at this time it behooves a courageous figure from our nation to step forward and speak the truth without hesitation, knowing that the vast albeit silent majority of the Arabs in Israel believe in the recesses of their heart that justice rests with me.

During my long years as a journalist, I was compelled to live in an Arab community, and I always had the painful feeling that I could not be sincere in my declarations, either oral or written. A feeling of distress gnawed at me, knowing as I did that I was violating the rules of morality and estranging myself from the foundations of intellectual integrity. But now, at long last, a golden opportunity has arisen: Israel has opened fire in the south and I, happily, am now ensconced in a protected Jewish neighborhood, infinitely joyful, because at least I can write without fear about what has lain for long years on my heart. At the end of the day, Israel is better, in my eyes, than every neighboring Arab state, if only because of the freedom of the press and the freedom of expression it preserves so rigorously.

That ends the clarification part. And now, with your permission, I will move to somewhat more operational language, in accordance with the winds that have been blowing for the past few days. What I am actually saying here is: Hit the bastards where it hurts. And you know what - anyone who comes to us with complaints is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. And most worthless of all are the locals who have already started to make noises here and there and ask, "What is the goal of the operation?" in a whimpering voice that makes me sick. Here's the enlightened leftist sitting on the balcony of his home, puffing on a Marlboro Lite and wondering with his pompous pals, "What are the aims?"

So now I am telling you: Our aim is to grind them into the dust. We will soften them up with missiles until they understand that for every blasted Qassam they let fly at us, they will get a hundred tons in their face. And it won't end, either. Who said it has to end? Hey, the rules of the game have changed. How long can you be good to them? Hey, was there a cease-fire? There was. What happened? All they did was figure out how to plan the next blow. So we didn't open the transit points? Is that our fault? They brought Hamas on themselves. Let them deal.

That's how it is, we have to go on to the end, until they learn that you don't come to us with force. Either they surrender and kiss our feet and we leave them alone, or we go on inflicting blows from the skies and they won't know what hit them.

Here's a fact: When they behave a little more quietly, like in the West Bank and Jerusalem, what's so bad there, with Abu Mazen and the jema'a? It's not like anyone stops them from sneaking by the checkpoints, right? It's not like caution isn't exercised in targeted you-know-whats, right? Aren't the settlers arrested when they rampage? How can anyone even compare their fabric of life with tons of bombs that kill 300 people in two days?

Bloody hell, don't they look at the life of luxury led by their brethren in the West Bank and learn that quiet pays? From my acquaintance with Arabs, I tell you: They simply have a mental problem. There's nothing to it. No matter what you do, they will come back with complaints. Aalek, Gaza is one big prison of refugees, the jobless and the starving. Hey, is that our fault? Hey, is it because of us that they're like that?

It's not that they fire Qassams and say it's because they don't have anything to eat. No. They fire them and say that the gates of hell will be opened on the Zionist enemy and that they want to expel us from our homeland. Right. Hey, are we supposed to be responsible for every hungry Arab kid?

And one more thing that I really can't understand is the Arabs in Israel. We are as nice as can be to them, there is no more Military Government, they can move freely, work, go to school, they have citizenship - dear God, we let them vote and they come and demonstrate. The very same people who know well that only by dialogue and understanding can one live with us in peace. Hey, what's the deal? Did we expropriate their land? Did we neglect the infrastructures in their villages? Did we ignore their distress and the poverty? No way. Their situation is ten times better than that of the Arabs in the West Bank.

So instead of understanding better than anyone else that we have no choice but to trample Gaza, they demonstrate solidarity with the bearded guys in green. I want to tell you, no matter what we do we will come out patsies and that's why I say not to listen to anyone. What more do they want? What? That we should treat them like Jews?

To conclude, one more thing that, regrettably, not many dare say aloud: A court won't help. I know that you, just like me, don't want to live with Arabs.
 

mondo

TRIBE Promoter

'Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.'


former Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon



'This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.'


Prime Minister Golda Meir



'If Israel wanted peace it has to exit East Jerusalem, the Golan and almost all of the West Bank.'

Outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert


-------------------------------

Death ratio in 2007 was 25 to 1.
 
Last edited:

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
^^
what do ratio's have do to w/ the morality, or justification of any offensive movement?

what if the ratio of deaths were 2:1 or 1:1? does that make isreal's position more tenable?

this is empty logic.

regardless of your stance on the matter, if you wage war you do it w/ the extent your resources allow. Hamas uses the weapons they can and so does isreal. one having exponentially more than the other says nothing about the underlying issue of either side's argument.
 
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acheron

TRIBE Member
fuck'em we should send in a secular army to squish the both of them and turn the whole area into a religious theme park - you want to ride the Judeo-Christian rides, you buy the JC multipass, you want to do the Koran shuffle you get the magic carpet ride special. All-inclusives are encouraged and the pan-theistic pray-all-day pass is a big hit with the kids.

Who the fuck are any of them for saying they have a god-given right to any of this landscape? If they want to make it about god then damn right both of them should be trying to kick the shit out of eachother for the right to stand where they think god said they should. Anything else simply doesn't make sense. Of course, making sense isn't really a strong suit when it comes to organized so-called peaceful, golden-rule-style religions with long histories of violence and subjugation.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
^^
what do ratio's have do to w/ the morality, or justification of any offensive movement?

what if the ratio of deaths were 2:1 or 1:1? does that make isreal's position more tenable?

this is empty logic.

I've been reading some of the more thoughtful analyses out there recently on the "ratio" approach to morally understanding conflicts and I must say I'm still on the fence.

I don't think its entirely empty or inappropriate and that when the ratio gets to bigger differences between the greater and the lesser number that there is room for some moral judgment on that.

I dont think it should be the only or deciding factor but I also don't think it should be waved aside so readily.
 

mondo

TRIBE Promoter
judge wopner said:
^^
what do ratio's have do to w/ the morality, or justification of any offensive movement?

what if the ratio of deaths were 2:1 or 1:1? does that make isreal's position more tenable?

this is empty logic.

regardless of your stance on the matter, if you wage war you do it w/ the extent your resources allow. Hamas uses the weapons they can and so does isreal. one having exponentially more than the other says nothing about the underlying issue of either side's argument.





It is not an opinion, nor justification.
Merely information... like the USA sending Israel 85 jet fighters a few months ago.
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
mondo said:

'This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.'


Prime Minister Golda Meir


.


You cant quote Golda Meir without saying "There will only be peace when the Palestinians love their children more then they hate us"

the god quote is ridiculous but I bet I can find a million Allah promised this land to us quotes despite the fact that the Koran does not mention Palestine but mentions "Children of Israel" (jews) for failing to convert".(the only section to be removed from a Koran for their new Hebrew version)

I feel the qoute I choose gives a better representation of the real problem.

As Hamas' jew eating rabbit said to a child on their children's television show "why do you want to be a journalist? So you can take pictures of jews? you need to fight and be a shahid (suicide bomber)"

*All videos are shot by Palestinians in Hamas Occupied Gaza before Israel's latest offensive







1:18 - Hamas executes Palestinians at a wedding for playing music.
3:50 - Hamas executes Palestinians for supporting Fatah
7:30 - Gazans celebrate the death of thousands of Americans on 9/11
9:10 - Hamas trains child soldiers and suicide bombers to fight Israel



The Palestinian people deserve to live in peace just like the citizens of Israel. Hamas does not care about the lives of its own people. How would the United States respond if Windsor fired 6000+ rockets into Detroit?

Civilian casualties would be lower if Hamas protected their people like Israel does. The Palestinians have sat on billions of dollars, they can build shelters, not fire rockets from in front of schools or storing weapons in mosques and hospitals. what about putting an end to the use of human shields and worshiping death?
 

Flashy_McFlash

Well-Known TRIBEr
originalVIBE said:
The Palestinian people deserve to live in peace just like the citizens of Israel. Hamas does not care about the lives of its own people. How would the United States respond if Windsor fired 6000+ rockets into Detroit?

Jon Stewart responded to this charge nicely last night. How would Canada respond if the US decided to annex Windsor and cut off supply lines and aid to it?
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
OriginalVIBE - don't you realize we could play "swap the atrocities" and "swap the horrible quotes" all day long?

You DO know there's plenty people from "the other side" could post here in answer to your Hamas stuff you posted here right?
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
alexd said:
I have been watching the live coverage on aljazeera.
Did you tune in via satellite when they celebrated the birth of this child killer, Samir Kuntar, who forced a four year old girl to watch as he shot her father in the head and then bashed her brains out with a rifle butt.

MEMRI-1818.jpg


If you really want to know about Hamas and their goals then just read their charter. Click the link of their logo below for a translation:

(Note the entire map of Israel is pictured as Palestine including territory occupied in 67. Hamas believes that all of Palestine is occupied including Israel)
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
What about the settlers and orthodox Israelis that see all of the Sinai and Transjordan and Gaza and the West Bank as belonging to Israel by divine ordainment??
 
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originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
praktik said:
OriginalVIBE - don't you realize we could play "swap the atrocities" and "swap the horrible quotes" all day long?

You DO know there's plenty people from "the other side" could post here in answer to your Hamas stuff you posted here right?


Yes, there are lots of atrocious acts committed on the Israeli side and I will openly denounce all of them. At the end of the day, Israel persecutes its criminals. Hamas celebrates them.

I think Israel try's its hardest to avoid civilian casulties but Hamas does not make it easy for them:
Hamas Hiding Behind Women & Children
LiveLeak-dot-com-f4e18d3b96c4-humanshieldsfl.jpg


Hamas terrorists have desperately fled their hideouts to mix in with women and children in maternity wards and preschools in an attempt to increase civilian casualties. Weapons have been placed on the roofs of schools and especially hospitals for disabled children.

Israel has destroyed large caches of Iranian supplied Grad rockets supplied by Iran that were stored in Mosques and so Hamas is desperate to find a hiding place where Israel will be reluctant to strike - schools, hospitals and nurseries fit this bill nicely.

Hamas terrorists often shoot from positions behind women and children and even shoot through the legs of willing civilians as shown in the attached photograph of a large Russian SPG rocket being fired through the legs of a non-combatant.

Hamas also makes use the "Somali Foxhole" against Israeli soldiers. A "Somali Foxhole" is simply a sniper laying on the ground in prone position hidden from view by his position underneath a woman holding a baby. The sniper is hidden by her dress or Abbayah/Chador/Burkha. This is usually done from a doorway. Israeli soldiers have been trained to avoid civilian casualties, and so do not shoot at women with children in their arms. This reluctance results in them being shot by the sniper.
LiveLeak-dot-com-7852972dbaf6-terrorcivilians6_2.jpg
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
praktik said:
What about the settlers and orthodox Israelis that see all of the Sinai and Transjordan and Gaza and the West Bank as belonging to Israel by divine ordainment??

If a peace deal is reached then they will be in for a surprise! Kick em all out...

Proof that it would happen can be seen by israel's disengagement of Gaza as well as clearing out more settlers this past year from the West Bank.


The settlers do not have a children's TV show telling their children to go an kill as many Muslims as you can today. These disturbing messages have been brainwashed to the Palestinian people for generations now. Its no wonder that most only know hate.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
Yes, there are lots of atrocious acts committed on the Israeli side and I will openly denounce all of them. At the end of the day, Israel persecutes its criminals. Hamas celebrates them.

Really eh?:

The Israeli military indicted just six per cent of all soldiers accused of criminal offences against Palestinians between September 2001 and the end of 2007, an Israeli human rights group said on Wednesday.

The Yesh Din group said that from the beginning of the second Palestinian uprising, more than 1,200 investigations into suspect activities by Israeli soldiers were conducted,
but only 78 of the investigations, or six per cent, resulted in charges being filed.

Yesh Din said its the report was based on information provided by the Israeli military.​
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
The settlers do not have a children's TV show telling their children to go an kill as many Muslims as you can today. These disturbing messages have been brainwashed to the Palestinian people for generations now. Its no wonder that most only know hate.

Did the TV show make them hate or did 60% unemployment, abysmal medical care, settler-only roads, thousands of checkpoints, limited access to food, water and consumer goods, targeted assassinations and an obscene civilian body-count make them hate?

Seems to me the children's TV show is the least of the irritants there....
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Flashy_McFlash said:
Jon Stewart responded to this charge nicely last night. How would Canada respond if the US decided to annex Windsor and cut off supply lines and aid to it?

First, Israel continuously sent aid into Gaza. Regardless, if the problem is supplies and fuels, then why did Hamas target borders and fuel crossings?

Second, unlike Canada/us, there are two ways out of Gaza. Egypt and Israel. If that's the problem, then why is Hamas not at war with Egypt?

If the problem is occupation, then why has Israel been under attack since they left?
 
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