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Gaza explodes, Israel helps blow things up

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
atbell said:
Bah, what a mess. This could be a problem created by less then 100 people. How do you find who out of 100 people is causing problems short of a police state?

Is a police state an option?

Its an Islamic state which is kind of like the same thing except the law referenced is Sharia.

As you said in a previous post, Israel needs to respond but how? that is still the million dollar questions.

its more then 100 people causing the problems. Hamas support reflects the majority of Gazans that have aligned themselves with Jihad over peace. Israel is fighting a rabid dog and trying to tell the dog not to bite. After generations of nothing but hatred being shown and taught to the Palestinians since birth, a monster has been created.

I think Israel still wants the same thing it has always wanted as it stated in the article I posted. To live in peace and have it's children live in peace side by side with its neighbors.

Israel's neighbors reject freedom and reform ideals and can't have Isreal there fucking it up for the rest of their people. ie - what if there were a call for islamic reform in the middle east? (ie - woman's rights, partying on the beach, freedom of religion) they must fight to make sure that these ideals dont spread.


I saw this picture on another site today from a anti Israel protest
sanaa.jpg

we all know that worked well the first time.


September 12, 2005: The Israeli flag is lowered in Gaza and disengagement is over. Israel leaves in hope that this might be seen as a step towards peace allowing the Palestinians to accept Israel and declare a state of their own. The Palestians burn down all the temples, green houses and community buildings that Israel left for them. Leaving Gaza is viewed as a sign of weakness, not peace. once again, Jihad is called.


September 12: Rocket attack on Sderot.
September 12: Rocket attack on Yad Mordechai.
9/23: Islamic Jihad attacks Kfar Aza
9/24: Hamas attacks Sderot, 11 injured
9/25, 26, 27, 30 - At least six separate rocket attacks - followed by more...
October 2005: At least 7 rocket attacks
November 2005: At least 11 rocket attacks
December 2005: At least 34 separate rocket attacks, causing numerous injuries and much damage
January 2006: At least 27 separate attacks (most with multiple rockets)

January 25, 2006: Hamas wins the PLC elections.

February 2006: At least 55 rocket attacks
March 2006: At least 47 attacks, with injuries
April 2006: At least 53 separate rocket attacks
 
Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Bass-Invader said:
what was the point of this post?

Just responding to your question:
Originally Posted by Bass-Invader
has Hamas indicated what they want in exchange for cessation of the rocket attacks?

When asked about a possible new ceasefire, following Israels attack. Hammas said "No ceasefire, we will fight until the last drop of blood has been spilled"
 

Bass-Invader

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
Just responding to your question:


When asked about a possible new ceasefire, following Israels attack. Hammas said "No ceasefire, we will fight until the last drop of blood has been spilled"
why didn't you just respond with the quote in the first place instead of some equivocal reference to their charter?
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Bass-Invader said:
why didn't you just respond with the quote in the first place instead of some equivocal reference to their charter?

I did respond with a qoute. an the answer is right in their charter.

OV
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
From the Arab Press
Tuesday, September 04, 2007
Ridiculing Rockets
“We chased the Jews out of Gaza, and now we will kick them out of Sderot, and afterwards from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.”

The Palestinian press ridiculed the rocket attacks on the town of Sderot in southern Israel, showing pictures of fleeing and weeping Israelis in the newspaper Al Risalah.

“The Palestinian resistance against the Zionists proves to be successful and forces settlers to leave their homes,” the newspaper reported. “Dozens of the settlers of Sderot stormed Mayor Eli Moyal’s office and pleaded to be evacuated, feeling threatened by the Kassam rockets. Israel’s Ministry of Interior moved thousands of residents to the north for security reasons because of our rockets. They are afraid of us.”

The report refers to the citizens of Sderot as settlers, like those who live in Judea and Samaria, proving that Palestinians believe that any Jew in Israel, whether in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem or the disputed territories has no rights or legitimate claims to the Land.

“We chased the Jews out of Gaza,” the article said. “And now we will kick them out of Sderot, and afterwards from Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.”
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
Patrik - are you saying that Hamas does not want the total destruction of the Jewish state and that the Mossad have lied and put that there?

I'm saying that their goals are more complicated than that. Within Hamas there is a diversity, and astute Israeli commentators - former Mossad agents and military men - are on the record as saying specifically that the idea they are solely and only dedicated to the destruction of Israel is silly.

There are other goals they are pursuing as well: the security of the Palestinian people, rising living standards, international recognition. Some of the more fanatical elements may conform to the cartoon template you've set forth - but the point is such elements would be isolated if Israel took a different course with Hamas.

Right now Israel is playing right into the hands of the worst elements of Hamas and Palestinian society generally.
 

Bass-Invader

TRIBE Member
i was obviously referring to the situation at hand. their charter does not preclude them from entering into ceasefires.
 

Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
Patrik - are you saying that Hamas does not want the total destruction of the Jewish state and that the Mossad have lied and put that there?

What about when Hamas holds a rally and gives a speech saying, "we will take over the UK, we will take over Europe, we will take over the USA, we trust in Allah". Is this not part of a larger global jihad or did the Mossad tell them to say that?

Lol....yes of course, Hamas genuinely believes it can and will "take over the UK, USA and Europe." Of course that is a genuine expression of their will and confidence in their precise ability to accomplish their lofty goals. I understand they're plotting a full lunar takeover once the global jihad is achieved. "And to Venus we will go brothers in Allah!!!!"

1. Are you really this simple?

2. Do you think those opposing you are so stupid as to fall for your over-simplified retarded bullshit? Are you not aware that many in this room can actually think for themselves and can offer a view that is far deeper and more nuanced than your Grade 1 analysis would call for?

3. Can you give me something other than canned hyperbolic Fox News type crap as evidence of your argument (that Israel is acting somehow legitimately and proportionately in its latest round of barbaric "defense" of itself)?

Next.....this line of yours right here:

"This time the jews are not going to sit back and wait to be killed."

Is frightening in its inanity. Wanna compare casualty figures over the intifadah? Remind me again how many Israelis have been killed as these.....wait for it now....."thousands of rockets have rained down....?" What is it, four, five? Shall we talk about who's waiting to be killed? Honestly???

I'm so fucking sick of hearing such nonsense, seriously. I know I could have handled this post in a far more tactful and respectful manner but I couldn't be bothered. The incredible imbalance of power in this situation is blindingly clear to all except people like you. I won't bother trying to change your mind because I know you don't want it changed.

Good luck meatgrinding Hamas and its descendents into quiet surrender. Yes, from everything I see and hear, Israel's strategy of *cough* "ensuring peace" is guaranteed to succeed this time. Just like it did after its last campaign of large scale, fuck-you and die brutality two summers ago in Lebanon. Awesome strategy, my compliments.

P.S. The role of "blindly biased Israeli sympathizer" has already been played by several who have gone before you. And much more effectively too. At least Deep Groove used to put some thought into it, rather than visit the same juvenile "wipe Israel off the map" stuff which you seem content to toss back into the mix.
 

why not

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
Re: the four Israeli's that have been killed. Hamas posted this last night on there website (you have to translate it as death is not gloried on the English website. in fact, this release was not on there)



What they dont say is that of the four people:
1) is an 49 year old mother of four

2) an Israeli Arab (or Israeli Palestinian if you prefer)

3) a 58 year old man sitting in his home

4) an officer (as mentioned)



As to use of force - or what are they doing. The Israeli Defense Forces have set up there own youtube page showing progress and operations. Unfortunately, Hamas has urged people to flag the videos as inappropriate and have them removed. (yet videos inciting jihad and killing American soldiers with sniper riffles remain long spread)

as a responce to the removal: the idf posted this


Livelink has a copy of the video in question that shows a destroyed missile site that is purposely located in a residential area
. (The original on youtube was in English and not Hebrew. having already seen it, it says, underground launch site. then highlights the homes to show that it is purposely located in a residential area followed by showing a missile launching out of the site during the attack. Or the IDF striking at Terrorists loading a truck with rockets.

i don't see how any of this responds to my post.


no one is arguing that hamas' tactics aren't barbaric - i'm arguing that for israel to emulate hamas' barbarism on an epic level plays directly into their hands (and conveniently into israeli public opinion so close to an election).

of course israel is aiming its bombs and missiles at hamas targets, but we all know that when you attack on this scale there will be considerable civilan casualties, so we must presume that this is also israel's goal. we can also presume that they're hoping that by punishing the innocents that the population will rise up against hamas, but this has never worked out historically has it?

if you want to cripple organizations like hamas, bombs are clearly not the answer, which leads me to ask - exactly what are israeli military and political leaders hoping for from this?
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
praktik said:
I'm saying that their goals are more complicated than that. Within Hamas there is a diversity, and astute Israeli commentators - former Mossad agents and military men - are on the record as saying specifically that the idea they are solely and only dedicated to the destruction of Israel is silly.


[His Grace re-loaded]
Wednesday, March 28, 2007
Hamas: ‘Islam will take over the world’
"Islam will enter every house and will spread over the entire world," says Hamas leader Al-Zahar.


This from the Palestinian Media Watch:
While the Hamas goal of destroying Israel is well known, its aspiration for Islamic subjugation of the entire world is just as basic to Hamas dogma. Both aims appear in the Hamas Charter as God's irrepressible will, and both aims were reiterated this week by senior Hamas leader and former PA Foreign Minister Mahmoud Al-Zahar.

At a mass rally in memory of Hamas founder Ahmad Yassin, Al-Zahar said that the Qur’an promises the ‘liberation of all of Palestine’, meaning the destruction of Israel. Below is the translation of parts of Al-Zahars speech:

“We have two important foundations: One is Qur’anic and the other is prophetic. The Qur’anic: The divine promise made in the Al-Israa Sura [Sura 17] is that we will liberate the blessed Al-Aqsa Mosque, and we will enter it as we have entered it the first time [Sura 17, ayat 7]. And the prophetic foundation is the message of the prophet Mohammad, that Islam will enter every house and will spread over the entire world."

"Our position is the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. This is the final and strategic solution for us. There is a Qur’anic message for us, that we will enter the Al-Aqsa mosque, and the entrance to the mosque means the entrance into all of Palestine. This is the message, no one can deny it. Anyone who denies it must check his faith and his Islam.”

So, not much doubt then about the aims and intentions of Hamas. Or perhaps their exegesis is faulty, and they have simply misunderstood the tolerant and peaceful message of the Qur'an...

praktik said:
There are other goals they are pursuing as well: the security of the Palestinian people, rising living standards, international recognition. Some of the more fanatical elements may conform to the cartoon template you've set forth - but the point is such elements would be isolated if Israel took a different course with Hamas.


Hamas seizes aid meant for Red Crescent


Hamas legalizes crucifixion

Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.

On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari’a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.

Hamas’s endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad.

Lets not forget, attacking fuel stations to help bring about shortages for its people.

or not letting the gazans farm on the fields that use to belong to the jews in 2005:

settlement2.JPG


"A former setelment"
There are still fences around former Israeli settlements, ensuring that ordinary residents of Gaza don't benefot from them at all. Many are now terrorist training camps.

settlement1.JPG


"Settlements had the best land"
There is nothing stopping Gazans from building farms that are just as productive as those the Israelis built up in Gaza. But even after the Israelis abandoned the land that they worked so hard on, the Palestinian Arab leaders keep their population living in crowded cities and do not allow them to build new communities.


Hamas does not care about its people. It pretends to for propaganda & PR but does what it can to maximize suffering for gain.
 
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originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
why not said:
of course israel is aiming its bombs and missiles at hamas targets, but we all know that when you attack on this scale there will be considerable civilan casualties, so we must presume that this is also israel's goal. we can also presume that they're hoping that by punishing the innocents that the population will rise up against hamas, but this has never worked out historically has it?

if you want to cripple organizations like hamas, bombs are clearly not the answer, which leads me to ask - exactly what are israeli military and political leaders hoping for from this?

If that was there goal then why would Israel treat there sick?

Why did Israel distribute leaflets last week around the tunnel ares warning people to stay away and that they were going to demolish those tunnels?

IN 2005 or 2006 (cant remember but will find reference if you like), Israel called Hamas HQ and warned them that they had 30 mins to evacuate all children and innocents as they were going to attach. Hamas responded by calling on all woman and children to gather in the area so that casualties would be maximized.
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Vincent Vega said:
Lol....yes of course, Hamas genuinely believes it can and will "take over the UK, USA and Europe." Of course that is a genuine expression of their will and confidence in their precise ability to accomplish their lofty goals. I understand they're plotting a full lunar takeover once the global jihad is achieved. "And to Venus we will go brothers in Allah!!!!"

1. Are you really this simple?

2. Do you think those opposing you are so stupid as to fall for your over-simplified retarded bullshit? Are you not aware that many in this room can actually think for themselves and can offer a view that is far deeper and more nuanced than your Grade 1 analysis would call for?

3. Can you give me something other than canned hyperbolic Fox News type crap as evidence of your argument (that Israel is acting somehow legitimately and proportionately in its latest round of barbaric "defense" of itself)?

Next.....this line of yours right here:

"This time the jews are not going to sit back and wait to be killed."

Is frightening in its inanity. Wanna compare casualty figures over the intifadah? Remind me again how many Israelis have been killed as these.....wait for it now....."thousands of rockets have rained down....?" What is it, four, five? Shall we talk about who's waiting to be killed? Honestly???

I'm so fucking sick of hearing such nonsense, seriously. I know I could have handled this post in a far more tactful and respectful manner but I couldn't be bothered. The incredible imbalance of power in this situation is blindingly clear to all except people like you. I won't bother trying to change your mind because I know you don't want it changed.

Good luck meatgrinding Hamas and its descendents into quiet surrender. Yes, from everything I see and hear, Israel's strategy of *cough* "ensuring peace" is guaranteed to succeed this time. Just like it did after its last campaign of large scale, fuck-you and die brutality two summers ago in Lebanon. Awesome strategy, my compliments.

P.S. The role of "blindly biased Israeli sympathizer" has already been played by several who have gone before you. And much more effectively too. At least Deep Groove used to put some thought into it, rather than visit the same juvenile "wipe Israel off the map" stuff which you seem content to toss back into the mix.
TROP.jpg

Right, there is no global jihad threat.

I am telling another side of the story that has not been told...and there have been no refrences to fox news. mostly middle east media as a matter of fact. and iran is not trying to build nuclear weapons to destory isreal. this picture from yesterday most be a hoax:
iran+banner.jpg


Iran's Defence Minister Mostafa Mohammad Najjar (R) stands under a banner as he takes part in an anti-Israel rally in Tehran in support of Palestinians in Gaza, December 29, 2008

are you saying Israel should wait until 100's have died? Israel is peace seeking nation that has every right to defend herself.

There is no country of Palestine. You keep on defending those that care less about you...it seems to be working.

Shalom! OV
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Ok so tell me then OriginalVIBE, are the Palestinians who believe that all Israelis think they're "dogs" and seek domination over the muslim world correct?

Or is Israeli society more complex than that?
 

why not

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
[His Grace re-loaded]
Wednesday, March 28, 2007
Hamas: ‘Islam will take over the world’
"Islam will enter every house and will spread over the entire world," says Hamas leader Al-Zahar.


This from the Palestinian Media Watch:





Hamas seizes aid meant for Red Crescent


Hamas legalizes crucifixion



Lets not forget, attacking fuel stations to help bring about shortages for its people.

or not letting the gazans farm on the fields that use to belong to the jews in 2005:

settlement2.JPG


"A former setelment"
There are still fences around former Israeli settlements, ensuring that ordinary residents of Gaza don't benefot from them at all. Many are now terrorist training camps.

settlement1.JPG


"Settlements had the best land"
There is nothing stopping Gazans from building farms that are just as productive as those the Israelis built up in Gaza. But even after the Israelis abandoned the land that they worked so hard on, the Palestinian Arab leaders keep their population living in crowded cities and do not allow them to build new communities.


Hamas does not care about its people. It pretends to for propaganda & PR but does what it can to maximize suffering for gain.

take a deep breath and re-read what people are posting.

forget for a moment your quaint ideas about absolute good and evil.

posting examples of hamas being 'bad' does nothing to excuse israel's response, just as posting hypothetical examples of situations where torture might be justified does nothing to support any defense of torture.

if israel wants to put itself on the moral high ground, it has to behave like it deserves to be there. doesn't matter how 'evil' their enemy is.


a heavy handed response simply doesn't work against essentially guerrilla organizations like hamas - it simply makes them stronger and more able to recruit new soldiers, which makes some of us wonder what exactly israel hopes to achieve with these tactics.
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
why not said:
take a deep breath and re-read what people are posting.

forget for a moment your quaint ideas about absolute good and evil.

posting examples of hamas being 'bad' does nothing to excuse israel's response, just as posting hypothetical examples of situations where torture might be justified does nothing to support any defense of torture.

if israel wants to put itself on the moral high ground, it has to behave like it deserves to be there. doesn't matter how 'evil' their enemy is.


a heavy handed response simply doesn't work against essentially guerrilla organizations like hamas - it simply makes them stronger and more able to recruit new soldiers, which makes some of us wonder what exactly israel hopes to achieve with these tactics.

What three people are saying does not reflect everyone. Look how this thread started and was changed when backed with the facts.

so ill put it to you, what should Israel do? sit back and wait?
 
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why not

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
so ill put it to you, what should Israel do? sit back and wait?

i don't know what they should do, but i do know that emulating the horror of random rocket attacks on a massive scale is the opposite of what a smart response should be.

let's pretend for a second that you accept the assumption that a massive bombing campaign will only strengthen hamas (as previous similar campaigns have proven) - what would a more sensible response be?

i don't have an answer myself, but i know that more bombs and bloodshed aren't the answer.
 

why not

TRIBE Member
Vincent Vega said:
I can't believe I got fooled by a troll. Shame on me.

i'm starting to think he's just trolling too.

no one can be that thick-headed can they?

then again, this is tribe...
 
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Puma

TRIBE Member
Israel loves these 4 day wars yesterday they declared an all out war, today they are already thinking about a cease-fire.
 

atbell

TRIBE Member
Puma said:
Israel loves these 4 day wars yesterday they declared an all out war, today they are already thinking about a cease-fire.

Maybe it's a translation issue.

Is the Hebrew word for 4 also the one for 'all out'?

(yes, I've resorted to lame comedy because this whole issue is making my head hurt)
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Spinsah said:

Is that one of the Palestinian children that tried to get medical help in Egypt only to be shot at by their own people? Why do the pals continue to try and put children in harms way?

how about some pictures of the nineteen diners that were killed in 2003 at a packed restaurant by a 21 year old female suicide bomber who left her detached head as a calling card. The restaurant young Hanadi Jardat blew apart had been jointly owned by an Arab family and a Jewish family for 40 years. Just one of many daily suicide attacks that Israel has faced in the past before the creation of the wall.

While Palestinians passed out candy celebrating the death of the innocent 19, Miss Jaradat's brother was seen on TV saying "We are receiving congratulations from people. Why should we cry? It is like her wedding day"


This war has been taking place for generations now. How do you expect them (Is/pal) to get past the hatred? Both sides deserve better. Israel can only offer peace so many times. Or is the solution just no more Israel in order to stop the fighting?
 
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