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Gaza explodes, Israel helps blow things up

atbell

TRIBE Member
Someone's gota say something about Gaza...

WTF!?!?

Israel opens a can of whoop ass for no real reason?

The only things I've heard that might be a reason are that there is an Israeli election coming up and that there are longer range rockets that just got delivered to Gaza.

But still?

My speculative side points to possible pre-hostility clearing but I don't think that it's all that likely.

Good response by protesters for sure. I heard there have been groups in Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal. If things keep up I might go and see if I can find a group tomorrow to take some pictures. Ah, holiday fun :eek:
 
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Puma

TRIBE Member
Israel will have to be split into two countries there is no other way. They should of done that long time ago.
 

toney

TRIBE Member
Tanks on the boarder is crazy.
I've read they are doing this now before the Obama administration comes in and also because they have a election in Feb. Either way , crazy to start the new year with this violence.
 

mondo

TRIBE Promoter
Puma said:
Israel will have to be split into two countries there is no other way. They should of done that long time ago.



Very uncomfortable situation in the middle east... btw, what is your proposal?
I believe there has been over 100 proposals to resolve this massive issue.

Is there a way?
Or will it all be an exercise in futility, meaning, look out for WWIII in about 4 years?

Iran ------------------------> Israel

'If you're not with us, you're against us'.
What if THEIR side started having this mentality?

Matthew broderick knows the answer.
 

rounder

TRIBE Member
Israel is doing this for no real reason?????

Really?????

Do you only get the Hamas news feed at your house?
 
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originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
source:


Ashkelonchild2.jpg

Children in Ashkelon crying from shock after Qassam rocket hits near their home



Israel Defends Citizens from Hamas


As Hamas and other Iran-backed Palestinian groups in Gaza continue to kill and wound Israeli civilians by launching almost daily attacks, Israel took action Saturday (Dec. 27) to defend its citizens with targeted airstrikes against terrorist leaders and their strongholds. [1]
Israel’s “Operation Cast Lead” [2] comes eight days after Israel’s ceasefire with Iran-backed Hamas formally ended Friday (Dec. 19). During that time, Palestinian terrorists in Gaza have fired more than 170 missiles, rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians, killing a 30-year-old resident of the southern Negev city of Netivot and wounding four. [3]

Hamas and other Iran-backed terrorist groups claimed responsibility for the attacks. [4] A Katyusha missile hit the Negev town of Kiryat Gat for the first time, demonstrating that Hamas terrorists are capable of firing rockets more than 12 miles (20 km). [5]
Responding to the terrorism, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said in a televised interview to Gaza’s citizens Dec. 25 on the Arabic TV network al-Arabiya “You the citizens of Gaza, you can stop it. I know how much you want to get up in the morning to quiet, to take your children to kindergarten or school, the way we do, the way they want to in Sderot and Netivot…

“We want to live as good neighbors with Gaza,” Olmert said.“ We do not want to harm you. We will not allow a humanitarian crisis and that you should suffer from a lack of food or medicines. We do not want to fight the Palestinian people but we will not allow Hamas to strike our children.” [6]

Despite the ongoing rocket and missile attacks, Israel on Friday (Dec. 26) transferred more than 90 truckloads of vital goods to Gaza residents. [7] For a comprehensive list of humanitarian aid delivered during the six-month ceasefire.
During the past year, Iran-backed terrorist groups in Gaza have fired more than 3,000 rockets, missiles and mortars at Israeli civilians in the southern Negev region, killing four people and wounding more than 270. [8]

Since Israel gave up all of Gaza in 2005 – relinquishing homes, farms, places of business and worship – terrorists have launched more than 6,300 rockets and mortars into Israel from Gaza. The attacks have killed 10 civilians, wounded more than 780 and traumatized thousands of others. [9] The only remaining Israeli in Gaza is Staff Sgt. Gilad Shalit who was abducted from Israel on June 25, 2006 by Hamas in a bloody cross-border raid in which the terrorists killed two IDF soldiers and wounded four others. [10]
During a visit five months ago to the southern Israeli city of Sderot, then-candidate and now President-elect Barack Obama defended Israel’s right to protect itself from such attacks: "If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing." [11]
Speaking about the Iranian nuclear threat, Obama also said during the visit, "A nuclear Iran would pose a grave threat and the world must prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon." [12]
In addition to firing missiles at Israeli civilians, the terrorist groups have conducted a sustained campaign of attacks against the border crossings from Gaza into Israel. In 2008 alone, there have been more than 17 attacks or attempted attacks on the crossings.

Among the worst were the shooting deaths of two civilian workers at the Nahal Oz fuel terminal into Gaza; two simultaneous vehicle bombings of the Kerem Shalom goods crossing which wounded 13 soldiers manning the crossing and shut it down for more than two months while repairs were carried out; and an attempted truck bombing of the Erez pedestrian crossing through which Palestinian patients seeking medical treatment in Israel are transported. [13] Also in 2008, more than 13,000 Palestinian patients and their escorts have crossed into Israel for medical treatment. [14]
In addition to firing rockets and mortars, terrorists have smuggled vast amounts of war materiel into Gaza. Israeli Minister for Public Security Avi Dichter said that in July 2008 alone, more than four tons of explosives were smuggled into Gaza via tunnels dug by terrorists under the Egypt-Gaza border. There are 400-600 smuggling tunnels running along Gaza’s Philadelphi Corridor, the strip of land spanning the border between Egypt and Gaza. [15]
Iran, one of the chief sponsors of Palestinian terrorism, provides approximately $20 million to $30 million to Hamas annually and also trains Hamas operatives in Iran and Syria. [16] Approximately 950 Hamas terrorists have been trained in building rockets and bombs, tactical warfare, weapons operation and sniper tactics by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps, a special division of Iran’s armed forces. [17]
On Nov. 28, 2008, an Iranian-manufactured standard 120mm mortar was fired by a terrorist group in Gaza and hit an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) base inside Israel, wounding eight soldiers, one of whom had his leg amputated as a result. The use of Iranian-made munitions by Palestinian terrorists is an increasingly common phenomenon in the conflict. [18]
Internecine Palestinian fighting during the past two years also has dealt a harsh blow to future prospects for peace, with 616 Palestinians killed in factional fighting from the time that Hamas won Palestinian elections in January 2006 through May 2007. [19] In June 2007, when Hamas seized control of Gaza in a bloody coup against Palestinian Authority President’s Fatah faction, 161 Palestinians were killed and at least 700 wounded. [20]
Iran, the world’s largest state sponsor of terrorism, gives Hamas $20 million a year,[21] and provided an additional $50 million after Hamas beat Fatah in the 2006 elections. [22] Iran also provided Hamas members with intensive military training in the weeks and months leading up to the group's takeover of the Gaza Strip. [23]
In September, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said, “Iran considered supporting the Palestinians its religious and national duty and would stay beside the Palestinian nation 'until the big victory feast which is the collapse of the Zionist regime (Israel).” [24]

Iran’s top leaders continue to threaten the West – particularly the United States.

In addition to Iran-backed Hamas’ terrorist activities, the group also conducts extensive media operations. It runs the Al-Aqsa TV station which has promoted terrorist activity and incites hatred of Jews and Israelis. On a children’s program called Tomorrow’s Pioneers which has featured numerous life-size costumed animals, the character called Assoud – a rabbit, stated, “I, Assoud, will finish off the Jews and eat them, Allah willing.” The show is but one example of the incitement to hatred and violence promoted by the TV channel. [25]

Experts for Comment in Israel
Professor Ephraim Inbar
Field: Arab-Israeli conflict, strategic developments in the Middle-East
Affiliation: Director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University
Cell: 972-54-660-3409
Tel.: 972-3-535-9198
E-mail: inbare@mail.biu.ac.il
Professor Barry Rubin
Field: Syrian foreign and domestic affairs, relations with Iran and Hezbollah, Arab-Israeli conflict, Islamic Fundamentalism in Egypt, Inter Arab Affairs, Israeli Foreign and Security Policy
Affiliation: Research Director of the Herzliya Inter Disciplinary Center’s Lauder School of Government, Diplomacy, and Strategy; editor of the journal Turkish Studies; member of the editorial board of Middle East Quarterly; Senior fellow at the Interdisciplinary Center's International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism.
Tel.: 972-3-531-8959
E-mail: profbarryrubin@yahoo.com
Dr. Jonathan Spyer
Field: Middle East Affairs, Israel-Palestinian Affairs, International Relations
Affiliation: Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center at the Inter-Disciplinary Center in Herzliya.
Cell: 972-52-878-3591
E-mail: jspyer@idc.ac.il
Professor Joshua Teitelbaum
Field: U.S. - Israel relations, history and politics of the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia and the Palestinians.
Affiliation: Senior research fellow at the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies, Senior Lecturer in the Middle Eastern History at Tel Aviv University, visiting associate professor of political science at Stanford University.
Cell: 972-54-431-2980


Graph: Rockets and Mortars Fired From Gaza June – December 2008


graph%20rockets%20during%20ceasefire%20-%20med.jpg





Footnotes:
[1] Harel, Amos, Ravid, Barak, “Palestinians: At least 205 dead, over 200 hurt in IAF Gaza strikes,” Haaretz, Dec. 27, 2008, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050359.html
[2] Ben David, Calev, Abu Ramadan, Saud, “Israeli Air Raids in Gaza Kill as Many as 200 People,” Bloomberg, Dec. 27, 2008, http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aj7RvdbJIeDY&refer=home

[3] Curiel, Ilana, “Man killed in rocket strike,” YnetNews, Dec. 27, 2008, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3644954,00.html; Harel, Amos, Ravid, Barak and Issacharoff, Avi, Haaretz Correspondents and News Agencies, “Army readies for 'limited' Gaza action as 22 mortars hit Negev,” Haaretz, Dec. 26, 2008, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050338.html

[4] “Gaza-Hamas Fact Sheet,” Embassy of Israel, Dec. 22, 2008; "Hamas fires at Israel, threatening hopes of renewed ceasefire," The Telegraph (UK), Dec. 24, 2008, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...l-threatening-hopes-of-renewed-ceasefire.html

[5] Adayat, Fadi and Harel, Amos, Haaretz Correspondents, and Haaretz Service, “One Israeli killed, 4 hurt as Palestinian rockets hit Negev home,” Haaretz, Dec. 27, 2008, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050399.html

[6] “PM Olmert Interviewed on Al Arabiya,” Prime Minister’s Office, Dec. 25, 2008, http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communication/Spokesman/2008/12/spokeinter251208.htm

[7] Harel, Amos, Ravid, Barak and Issacharoff, Avi, Haaretz Correspondents and News Agencies, “Army readies for 'limited' Gaza action as 22 mortars hit Negev,” Haaretz, Dec. 26, 2008, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050338.html

[8] Data relayed to The Israel Project by IDF Spokesman’s Division, Dec 18, 2008; “Hamas fires at Israel, threatening hopes of renewed ceasefire,” The Telegraph (UK), Dec. 24, 2008, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...l-threatening-hopes-of-renewed-ceasefire.html; “Rocket barrage from Gaza as Hamas ends six-month calm,” Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs Web site, Dec. 24, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA

[9] Data relayed to The Israel Project by IDF Spokesman’s Division, Dec 18, 2008; Berger, Ronny and Gelkopf, Marc, “The Impact of the Ongoing Traumatic Stress Conditions on Sderot,” Natal, The Israel Trauma Center for Victims of Terror and War in cooperation with Dr. Mina Tzemach, Director, Dachaf Public Opinion Research Institute, Oct. 2007

[10] Harel, Amos; Issacharoff, Avi; Haaretz Service and Reuters, "Two soldiers killed, one missing in raid on IDF post," Haaretz, June 25, 2006, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/730994.html

[11] Ravid, Barak, "Obama in Sderot: Nuclear Iran would be game-changing," Haaretz, July 23, 2008, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1004747.html

[12] "Obama says nuclear Iran a "grave threat," Reuters, July 23, 2008, http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSL2376765320080723

[13] “Main terrorist attacks carried out at Gaza Strip crossings,” Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, June 4, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...d+out+at+Gaza+Strip+crossings+16-Jan-2005.htm

[14] Data relayed to The Israel Project by the IDF’s Coordinator for Government Activities in the Territories, Dec. 10, 2008

[15] “News of the Israeli-Palestinian Confrontation July 22-29, 2008,” Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/jul_e001.htm; “Hamas has lately regulated the flourishing tunnel industry in the Gaza Strip,” Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Oct. 28, 2008, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ct_e009.pdf

[16] Hamas," Council on Foreign Relations Web site, http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/, retrieved July 7, 2008

[17] “Senior Hamas operative figure tells London Sunday Times’ Gaza Strip correspondent about Iranian and Syria military aid, detailing the training received by hundreds of Hamas terrorist operatives and describing the transmission to Hamas of Iranian technical know-how for the manufacture of rockets and IED,” The Terrorist and Intelligence Information Center at the Israel Intelligence Heritage and Commemoration Center, March 17, 2008, retrieved July 7, 2008, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_160308e.htm; Colvin, Marie, “Hamas wages Iran’s proxy war on Israel,” The Times, March 9, 2008, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3512014.ece

[18] “Violation of calm: Rockets strike Sderot, Ashkelon, western Negev,” Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Dec. 17, 2008, http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...Rockets_strike_Sderot_Ashkelon_western_Negev_
16-Nov-2008.htm; Harel, Amos, “Gaza mortar shells injure eight soldiers, one loses leg,” Haaretz, Nov. 29, 2008, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1042007.html

[19] “Over 600 Palestinians killed in internal clashes since 2006,” YnetNews, June 6, 2007, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3409548,00.html

[20] “Black Pages in the Absence of Justice: Report on Bloody Fighting in the Gaza Strip from 7 to 14 June 2007,” Palestine Centre for Human Rights, October 2007, http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/Reports/English/pdf_spec/Gaza Conflict - Eng 9 october..pdf

[21] Hamas," Council on Foreign Relations Web site, http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/, accessed July 2, 2007

[22] Iran pledges $50m Palestinian aid," BBC News, April 16, 2006, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4914334.stm

[23] Rabinovich, Abraham, "Hamas digs in for war in Gaza," The Australian, March 16, 2007

[24] “Ahmadinejad: Iran will support Hamas until collapse of Israel,” Haaretz, Sept. 13, 2008, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020630.html

[25] Kalman, Mathew, “Hamas launches TV Bugs Bunny-lookalike who declares 'I will eat the Jews',” The Daily Mail, Feb. 12, 2008, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Bugs-Bunny-lookalike-declares-I-eat-Jews.html; “Al Aqsa TV,” ADL.org, http://www.adl.org/terrorism/profiles/al_aqsa_tv.asp. Accessed on Dec. 22, 2008
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Puma said:
Israel will have to be split into two countries there is no other way. They should of done that long time ago.


1) Palestinian Arabs were offered their own state, side-by-side with Israel in 1947 by the United Nations partition plan (resolution 181). The Jews accepted but the offer was rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and neighboring Arab states and followed with attacks by 5 Arab armies on Israel's Independence Day. At this time, more Jews were expelled from Arab Nations than Arabs displaced from Israeli territory.

2) In the summer of 2000, Israel offered the Palestinian Arabs 97% of the land they claim to be fighting for, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer the Palestinian Arabs a homeland. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer from the Palestinians other then a call to go to war.

3) Israel voluntarily removed, sometimes forcibly expelled, every Jewish citizen from the Gaza strip in 2005 giving full control to the Palestinian-Arabs in hopes of peace. Grennhouses, temples, and community centers were left for the Arabs to use as there own. Instead, they burnt all the buildings to the ground and followed up with daily missile and rocket launchs into Israel.
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
atbell said:
Someone's gota say something about Gaza...

WTF!?!?

Israel opens a can of whoop ass for no real reason?

The only things I've heard that might be a reason are that there is an Israeli election coming up and that there are longer range rockets that just got delivered to Gaza.

But still?

My speculative side points to possible pre-hostility clearing but I don't think that it's all that likely.

Good response by protesters for sure. I heard there have been groups in Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal. If things keep up I might go and see if I can find a group tomorrow to take some pictures. Ah, holiday fun :eek:

Maybe it's time to protest Hamas for destroying Gaza lives and not Israel. Hamas is trying to maximize the injuries and deaths by not letting the sick leave for treatment.

Here is an article translated from Arab Press. Link:

An Egyptian official: Egypt opened the Rafah crossing, Hamas has only sent eight injured
2008-12-29 09:45:33 عدد القراءات ( 4113 ) 2008-12-29 09:45:33 number of readings (4113)

رفح-فلسطين برس- أكد مصدر مصري مسؤول أن مصر لا تزال مستعدة لاستقبال الجرحى الفلسطينيين وعلاجهم في المستشفيات المصرية، على الرغم من قيام عناصر حماس بإطلاق النار على القوات المصرية المتواجدة على خط الحدود، ما أدى إلى استشهاد أحد الضباط المصريين. Rafah - Palestine Press - The Egyptian official source said Egypt is still ready to receive the injured Palestinians and their treatment in Egyptian hospitals, although the members of Hamas opened fire on the troops stationed on the Egyptian border, which led to the martyrdom of one of the officers of Egyptians.

وقال المصدر في بيان صدر اليوم، إن مصر قامت بفتح معبر رفح لاستقبال الجرحى الفلسطينيين من جراء العدوان الإسرائيلي ابتداء من ظهر السبت ولم ترسل حماس سوى ثمانية جرحى مساء أمس 'الأحد'. The source said in a statement issued on Saturday, Egypt opened the Rafah crossing to receive the injured Palestinians as a result of Israeli aggression, starting on Saturday, Hamas did not send only eight wounded yesterday evening 'Sunday'.

وأضاف المصدر أنه قد تعذر دخول الجرحى الثماني إلى معبر رفح نتيجة قيام عناصر حماس بإطلاق النار على القوات المصرية المتواجدة على خط الحدود وفى محيط المعبر، ما أدى إلى استشهاد أحد الضباط المصريين. The source added that the wounded had been unable to enter the eight to the Rafah crossing as a result of members of Hamas opened fire on the troops stationed on the Egyptian border and in the vicinity of the crossing, which led to the martyrdom of one of the officers of Egyptians.

وأكد المصدر أنه بالرغم مما حدث، فلا تزال مصر مستعدة لاستقبال الجرحى الفلسطينيين وعلاجهم في المستشفيات المصرية. The source added that, despite what has happened, there is still Egypt is ready to receive the injured Palestinians and their treatment in Egyptian hospitals.
 

Puma

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
1) Palestinian Arabs were offered their own state, side-by-side with Israel in 1947 by the United Nations partition plan (resolution 181). The Jews accepted but the offer was rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and neighboring Arab states and followed with attacks by 5 Arab armies on Israel's Independence Day. At this time, more Jews were expelled from Arab Nations than Arabs displaced from Israeli territory.

2) In the summer of 2000, Israel offered the Palestinian Arabs 97% of the land they claim to be fighting for, making Israel the first and only country ever to offer the Palestinian Arabs a homeland. This offer was rejected with no counter-offer from the Palestinians other then a call to go to war.

3) Israel voluntarily removed, sometimes forcibly expelled, every Jewish citizen from the Gaza strip in 2005 giving full control to the Palestinian-Arabs in hopes of peace. Grennhouses, temples, and community centers were left for the Arabs to use as there own. Instead, they burnt all the buildings to the ground and followed up with daily missile and rocket launchs into Israel.

Well thats what the problem is the Arabs either have to accept some form of a compromise or live like this until one of them manages to completely destroy the other. Since they apparently chose the war forever option then they have to accept the consequences that Israel was left with no other choice but to sooner or later level them to the ground.


Even if they don't want to let Israel off the hook they should still take the deal, a separate state so that they can build up an army strong enough to actually challenge Israels dominance eventually. Not just sporadic hit and run attacks achieving no major strategical gains toward reclaiming Israel. The only thing they are doing is making sure that the Palestinian people will suffer for decades to come.
 
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atbell

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
Maybe it's time to protest Hamas for destroying Gaza lives and not Israel. Hamas is trying to maximize the injuries and deaths by not letting the sick leave for treatment.

The difficulty here is that Hamas blocking the injured from treatment wouldn't do anything if there were no sick to treat.

There is no question that Hamas has got to stop firing rockets. The difficulty is getting the organizations in place to be able to effectively police Gaza. How many people does it take to launch 150 rockets / month? 10? 15? 20? I've no idea exactly but I do know that it is only a fraction of the population. To be able to effectively ensure that no minority of the population is able to launch rockets there has to be a functioning state in place. That means that the economy and the infrastructure need to be there BEFORE the rockets will stop.

Attacks like this hurt Isreal in three ways:

-They destroy infrastructure needed to effectively eliminate violent members of society (or at least keep them from aquireing rockets).

-They increase the percentage of the population who are willing to take up the 'fight' by sparking revenge for killed relatives and friends and crushing living standards, not to mention making it imposible for investors to plan for the future. How many times is someone willing to put thier life savings into a store after thier first attempt was destroyed by a rocket?

-They decrease world wide support for Isreal which is very much needed by a country that is set to have thier US aid cut back assuming the country falls into deep recesion.

**********

Thanks for posting that graph of rocket attacks. Assuming it is correct it shows that there was at least some build up to the attack. This should shift the debate away from 'Should Isreal respond?' to 'HOW should Isreal respond?'.

At this point in time my answer to the first question is YES given the increase in rocket fire. I have no answer for the second question.

My guess about what happend on the Hamas side is that a portion of the organization agreed to the cease fire and was able to stop the rocket fire for the three months indicated by that graph. That would mean that in November the members of Hamas who did not agree with the results were able to re-orgainze to establish supply and launch networks for the rockets.

Bah, what a mess. This could be a problem created by less then 100 people. How do you find who out of 100 people is causing problems short of a police state?

Is a police state an option?
 

PosTMOd

Well-Known TRIBEr
originalVIBE said:
Graph: Rockets and Mortars Fired From Gaza June – December 2008


graph%20rockets%20during%20ceasefire%20-%20med.jpg
That was the correct (and rather restrained in fact) response then: destroy 100 Hamas places in 4 minutes after 2 months of rocket attacks from them. And continue destroying to ensure no more rocket attacks.
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Bass-Invader said:
has Hamas indicated what they want in exchange for cessation of the rocket attacks?

Hamas' charter calls for the complete destruction of the jewish state. I think that is what they want.

OV
 
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praktik

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
Hamas' charter calls for the complete destruction of the jewish state. I think that is what they want.

OV

I know your identification with Israel makes it difficult to be objective, but the world is a little more complex than that. Sure, there's those passages in the charter, but there have been high-ranking Israelis from Mossad, the military and elsewhere that believe that Hamas' goals are a little more pragmatic than that.

Remember, the suicide bombers themselves may think along those lines but the suicide bombers are ordered by someone. Someone who wants to live another day to run other operations, someone who has goals.

The Hamas leadership does not want to die, they want to maintain their leadership. There are surely things Hamas wants aside from an end to the occupation and prosperity for Palestinians and the destruction of Israel.

Things like allowing for greater trade with the outside world, infrastructure, security guarantees.

Atbell said:
Thanks for posting that graph of rocket attacks. Assuming it is correct it shows that there was at least some build up to the attack. This should shift the debate away from 'Should Isreal respond?' to 'HOW should Isreal respond?'.

At this point in time my answer to the first question is YES given the increase in rocket fire. I have no answer for the second question.

A very thoughtful post Atbell. I must agree with you here completely. "How" is the real question here. Targeted assassinations laid the groundwork for further bloodshed on both sides in the past, containment didn't seem to be working.

"Taking out Hamas", as they claim to be doing, is incredibly risky. Hezbollah claimed victory (and Ditto and I went back and forth on that for a while!) because Israel made their "destruction" the goal of the war. It was enough - we heard - time to end this once and for all.

Then, when things went off the rails and the PR war was lost Israel cut its losses and retreated - and since their stated goal wasn't complete and HEzbollah remained (strengthened even, some would say), Israel lost.

Will the same thing happen here? There is more control Israel has, this being in Gaza. THey are not crossing an international boundary in the same way they were in 2006. There is less coverage from inside Gaza as there was from inside Lebanon. Theoretically I think their allowance for brutality is a little longer than it was in 2006.

I think the questions raised by Atbell are appropriate here. WHat are the long-term consequences of this? How many more gazans have a blood debt to pay out against Israel? Is it even possible to completely eliminate Hamas?

And as this drags on and the body counts rise, we must remember that this is not happening in a vaccuum. What does this mean for Fatah in the West Bank? Don't they suffer when the palestininan population in the West Bank sees them silent, essentially condoning the behaviour of Israel? I think there's a big chance the West Bank will be radicalized into sympathetic action if it hasn't already begun to do so.

Hezbollah could make a move, after all, the kidnappings of 06 occured when Gaza was getting heavily attacked in a major Israeli operation (an oft-forgotten contextual fact since most accounts start exclusively with the kidnappings themselves).

There really are no good options. Aside from a complete rethinking of Israel's strategy, and provided a violent response was necessary - I'd have to say that something a lot more targetted and without the stated aim of eliminating Hamas would serve the domestic need to "appear strong" without jeopardizing Israeli interests the way this current operation is.
 
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Spinsah

TRIBE Member
I love the picture of the 'crying and in shock children'. The horror!

I will refrain from posting the picture of four year old Haya Hamdan's body who was killed along with her twelve year old sister by recent Israeli missle attacks.

Hamas is a violent and horrific group but Israel is not doing itself any favours with this disgusting and disproportionate use of force.
 

PosTMOd

Well-Known TRIBEr
Spinsah said:
...disproportionate use of force.

You might want to consider that those rocket attacks might be causing much more damage and deaths/injuries than reported. Why? I'm sure you're all smart enough to figure out a few good reasons for that.
 

toney

TRIBE Member
^^
History repeating itself? This kinda reminds me of Hitlers tanks rolling over Polands horseback at the beginning of WWII.

Also, anyone share my guilt of when I hear about this kind of news from the Middle East or Africa it bothers me as much as reading a History book and the lives lost of say, the English Civil war of 1642. Like the story yesterday about the Congo Church massacre and I flip to the story about Sarah Palins' daughter giving birth or some other useless dia'tribe.
 
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why not

TRIBE Member
originalVIBE said:
During the past year, Iran-backed terrorist groups in Gaza have fired more than 3,000 rockets, missiles and mortars at Israeli civilians in the southern Negev region, killing four people and wounding more than 270. [8]


BBC:

Palestinian officials say more than 360 people have been killed since Saturday. Four Israelis have died in rocket fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804218.stm


how could anyone argue that this is not a disproportionate response?

isn't this just playing into hamas' hands?
why wouldn't israel assume that this will probably play out like Lebanon did?

i'm not suggesting that the ongoing rocket attacks should be tolerated, but how does blowing up gaza help achieve this? the rockets are still coming, aren't they?
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
Patrik - are you saying that Hamas does not want the total destruction of the Jewish state and that the Mossad have lied and put that there?

What about when Hamas holds a rally and gives a speech saying, "we will take over the UK, we will take over Europe, we will take over the USA, we trust in Allah". Is this not part of a larger global jihad or did the Mossad tell them to say that?
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
why not said:
BBC:

Palestinian officials say more than 360 people have been killed since Saturday. Four Israelis have died in rocket fire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7804218.stm


how could anyone argue that this is not a disproportionate response?

isn't this just playing into hamas' hands?
why wouldn't israel assume that this will probably play out like Lebanon did?

i'm not suggesting that the ongoing rocket attacks should be tolerated, but how does blowing up gaza help achieve this? the rockets are still coming, aren't they?

Re: the four Israeli's that have been killed. Hamas posted this last night on there website (you have to translate it as death is not gloried on the English website. in fact, this release was not on there)

The Brigades of the Martyr Izz el-Deen al-Qassam, the military wing of the "Hamas" movement bombed on Monday (29/12) the port of Ashdod with "Grad" rockets and the settlement of Nahal Oz with three mortar shells. The Zionist enemy admitted the deaths of four rapists, including an officer, and injuries to more than 20 others wounded by the Qassam rockets.

The group said in its "The Mujahduha bombed the Ashdod port, which lies 40 km north of the Gaza Strip, Grad rockets at 9:15 "which led to the death of Zionist rapists and injuring more than 20 others, three of them seriously.

The Mujahduha battalions have also shelled the settlement of Nahal Oz with three mortar shells at 9:40 and the Zionist enemy admitted the killing of two soldiers, one officer and wounding four others.

The statement said "We declare jihad on the work of shelling Zionist settlements with Grad rockets and mortar shells, which resulted in the recognition of the Zionist enemy of the killing of four rapists and wounding more than 20 others, three of them seriously.

The group said the bombing was a response to the continued Zionist aggression against our people in Gaza and the West Bank, in response to the Zionist massacre in Gaza, which led to the deaths of more than 350 people and injured hundreds, and on the continuing unjust siege on our people.

What they dont say is that of the four people:
1) is an 49 year old mother of four

2) an Israeli Arab (or Israeli Palestinian if you prefer)

3) a 58 year old man sitting in his home

4) an officer (as mentioned)



As to use of force - or what are they doing. The Israeli Defense Forces have set up there own youtube page showing progress and operations. Unfortunately, Hamas has urged people to flag the videos as inappropriate and have them removed. (yet videos inciting jihad and killing American soldiers with sniper riffles remain long spread)

as a responce to the removal: the idf posted this
We are saddened that YouTube has taken down some of our exclusive footage showing the IDF’s operational success in operation Cast Lead against Hamas extremists in the Gaza Strip. As the State of Israel again faces those who would see it destroyed, it is imperative that we in the IDF show the world the inhumanity directed against us and our efforts to stop it. It is also worth noting that one of the videos removed had the highest number of hits (over 10,000) at the time of its removal.

Livelink has a copy of the video in question that shows a destroyed missile site that is purposely located in a residential area
. (The original on youtube was in English and not Hebrew. having already seen it, it says, underground launch site. then highlights the homes to show that it is purposely located in a residential area followed by showing a missile launching out of the site during the attack. Or the IDF striking at Terrorists loading a truck with rockets.
 

originalVIBE

TRIBE Promoter
toney said:
^^
History repeating itself? This kinda reminds me of Hitlers tanks rolling over Polands horseback at the beginning of WWII.

.

I see history repeat itself when I see the Arab nations spread hatred of Jews throughout their media (state sponsored TV, school textbooks, newspapers, ect).


Or when they call on a boycott of all Israeli goods (just like the Nazi's did with Jewish shops and goods)

Or when they march down the street with over 100 000 people calling for the death of all jews. (video taken from last week when Hamas was showing off their rockets and mocking the still captured soldier, Galid Shalit)

This time the jews are not going to sit back and wait to be killed.
 
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