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Fed-Ex Airplanes During a Thunderstorm

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Mephisto

TRIBE Member
that's pretty typical if there's level II/III+ activity in the area. the normal slam and jam flow just turns into a bunch of guys/girls blasting the fuck out of eachother with their weather radars on max gain tilting and panning all over the sky trying to find some green in a sea of red, yellow, magenta and +'s (lightening strikes on the stormscope are denoted with "+"). as a result everyone funnels into the same corridors in the sky trying to get to the destination. the normal ATC routes go to hell in a handbasket pretty quick because everyone starts asking for "deviations 10 degress right for 20 miles for a buildup" or "30 right for 5 for weather" or "looking for lower, continuous moderate to severe chop" or "severe clear icing in the descent", etc, etc. what you get is a big free for all while everyone tries to sneak in with a load of whining, bitchy passengers giving the trolly dollies in the back a hard time.

this has the same effect as the 401 out in the west end where like 6 lanes bottleneck into 3 as the storm grows and the clear areas on the radar grow sparse. in toronto, for instance, there are the four "bedposts" (kitchener VOR to the west, the mans VOR to the north west near own sound, simcoe VOR south-east of lake simcoe and the bulge intersection to the south east over lake ontario). if there's a big boomer hanging over toronto or severe icing, etc, etc then all the arrivals start to get stacked up over the bedposts (or whichever one isn't in an area getting hammered with weather) in a holding pattern which looks like a big staircase as a slot opens up for the final approach course the flight at the bottom of the stack peels away and makes a hail mary run through the gauntlet to the runway...then the other flights shuffle down two thousand feet, then lather, rinse, repeat. on really bad nights the controllers know we have our hands full so they'll just give everyone like 10miles in-trail spacing and tell us all "deviations left/right of course approved" and give a block altitude so we can climb/descend at our own discretion to avoid the shit.

of course this is the last scenario you want to see when you've arrived from an 8 hr flight from austria and had a 150kt headwind the entire way so it's not uncommon to hear guys/gals calling "bingo" (min fuel) and having to divert to another airport as opposed to waiting to get sequenced for an airport that's 100 movements behind their normal hourly rate.
 
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Ditto Much

TRIBE Member
Mephisto said:
that's pretty typical if there's level II/III+ activity in the area. the normal slam and jam flow just turns into a bunch of guys/girls blasting the fuck out of eachother with their weather radars on max gain tilting and panning all over the sky trying to find some green in a sea of red, yellow, magenta and +'s (lightening strikes on the stormscope are denoted with "+"). as a result everyone funnels into the same corridors in the sky trying to get to the destination. the normal ATC routes go to hell in a handbasket pretty quick because everyone starts asking for "deviations 10 degress right for 20 miles for a buildup" or "30 right for 5 for weather" or "looking for lower, continuous moderate to severe chop" or "severe clear icing in the descent", etc, etc. what you get is a big free for all while everyone tries to sneak in with a load of whining, bitchy passengers giving the trolly dollies in the back a hard time.

this has the same effect as the 401 out in the west end where like 6 lanes bottleneck into 3 as the storm grows and the clear areas on the radar grow sparse. in toronto, for instance, there are the four "bedposts" (kitchener VOR to the west, the mans VOR to the north west near own sound, simcoe VOR south-east of lake simcoe and the bulge intersection to the south east over lake ontario). if there's a big boomer hanging over toronto or severe icing, etc, etc then all the arrivals start to get stacked up over the bedposts (or whichever one isn't in an area getting hammered with weather) in a holding pattern which looks like a big staircase as a slot opens up for the final approach course the flight at the bottom of the stack peels away and makes a hail mary run through the gauntlet to the runway...then the other flights shuffle down two thousand feet, then lather, rinse, repeat. on really bad nights the controllers know we have our hands full so they'll just give everyone like 10miles in-trail spacing and tell us all "deviations left/right of course approved" and give a block altitude so we can climb/descend at our own discretion to avoid the shit.

of course this is the last scenario you want to see when you've arrived from an 8 hr flight from austria and had a 150kt headwind the entire way so it's not uncommon to hear guys/gals calling "bingo" (min fuel) and having to divert to another airport as opposed to waiting to get sequenced for an airport that's 100 movements behind their normal hourly rate.



cool, I now know how other people feel when I talk code
 

Mephisto

TRIBE Member
haters :(

for the geeks: here's a flight tracking site for pearson http://flightaware.com/live/airport/CYYZ. it shows the actual and scheduled arrivals/departures, has graphs of peak periods and a map plot of the inbound/outbound aircraft. beside the flights on the map you'll see a datablock that says something like:
ACA509 E170
124^353

which means:
- flight# (ACA509): air canada 509
- type of aircraft(E170): embraer regional jet 170
- altitude (124^): 12,400' and climbing
- speed (353): 353 nautical miles/hr across the ground

UAL465 A320
380 376

= united airlines flight 465, airbus 320, flight level/altitude 38,000', groundspeed 376 kts
 

TrIbAlNuT

TRIBE Member
hey Mephisto,

I have a quick Question for you.

I was in the flight deck of a B767-200ER over the atlantic ocean on saturday night. We had over 120kts tail winds thereby making our flight time about 30min shorter. Before I got to go in the flight deck the passenger screens showed the ground speed at 1,150KM/hr but in the flight deck the speed tape was at around 310kt M0.83, cant remember the exact numbers. I still dont understand true airspeed, indicated airspeed and goundspeed. Is true air speed taking the wind speed into consideration, and is the Indicated speed without the wind component added?

The captain let me do one position check with Gander oceanic HF, it was pretty cool!!!

ps. one more quick Q, is 24R/06L the only rwy at YYZ that is ILS CAT III?

thanks
 
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Mephisto

TRIBE Member
TrIbAlNuT said:
I was in the flight deck of a B767-200ER over the atlantic ocean on saturday night. We had over 120kts tail winds thereby making our flight time about 30min shorter. Before I got to go in the flight deck the passenger screens showed the ground speed at 1,150KM/hr but in the flight deck the speed tape was at around 310kt M0.83, cant remember the exact numbers. I still dont understand true airspeed, indicated airspeed and goundspeed. Is true air speed taking the wind speed into consideration, and is the Indicated speed without the wind component added?

ok get your e6-bs/cr-5s out for this one....

first, a quick review: indicated airspeed (what you read off the indicator) has to jump through a couple of hoops before you arrive at the true airspeed (what you're doing through the atmosphere).
the pneumonic/acronym i always used to teach in groundschool was "ICED Tea, Pretty Cool Drink". you sort of shoehorn the "PCD" into the "ICED" and get I-p-C-c-E-d-D

using this and working left to right you can see the relationship whereby:
Indicated airspeed (IAS) is corrected for position error (due to the position of the pitot tubes in the freestream flow as affected by the pressure waves from the nose/wing/etc) to yield Calibrated airspeed (CAS)...
...which is corrected for compressibility error (due to air actually being an compressible fluid and the atmospheric properties of transonic normal waves) to yield Equivalent airspeed (EAS)...
...which is corrected for density error (basically accounting for the lower density of the air aloft, the same reason that the speed of sound is lower up high than near the surface) to yield True airspeed (TAS)...
...which is the speed at which you're travelling through the arbitrary airmass

so you can see from this that the winds and movement with respect to the surface of the earth has nothing to do with TAS.

- once again, the passenger screen showed 1150kph which works out to roughly 620knots (groundspeed) while indicating 310kts on the airspeed tape....
i'll assume you were cruising somewhere around 35,000' with an outside temp of about -55 degrees (standard icao atmosphere with a standard adiabatic lapse rate) so plug those values into your whizwheel and it'll give a TAS of 490kts. so add 120 kts of tailwind to this to figure (490+120=610kts) out how fast your moving across the earth and this is why your passenger screen showed a groundspeed of around 620kts/1150kph.



ps. one more quick Q, is 24R/06L the only rwy at YYZ that is ILS CAT III?
i don't remember seeing any other catIII approaches in the CAP so you might be right. i imagine they'll be putting one in for 05/23 as well. CATII/III is a pain in the ass for everyone...when an airport goes to CATII/III op-specs it slows everything right down and even the taxiways the ground controllers can use are more limited so as a rule everyone tries to avoid doing it unless it's absolutely necessary. there are some airports that are famous for being CATII/III darlings though (halifax, logan, etc)....nantucket/martha's vineyard have been the banes of my professional existence on more than one occasion
 
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TrIbAlNuT

TRIBE Member
great info thanks a lot Mephisto!! I was missing the physics part of the equation which you have explained. After those 3 hrs in the flightdeck Im sure that aviation is my desired path.
 

veteze

TRIBE Promoter
TrIbAlNuT said:
great info thanks a lot Mephisto!! I was missing the physics part of the equation which you have explained. After those 3 hrs in the flightdeck Im sure that aviation is my desired path.

I thought they only let 5 year olds up there these days.
 
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