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Council voted to designate TTC an essential service

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
I think funding is the most important thing. Putting a little extra in cleanliness and capital projects can go a long way to make people 'feel' the TTC is better rather than get told it's "broken". It's just underfunded.

"The real problem with the TTC is that it's one of the most efficient transit agencies in North America. Last year, it carried a record number of passengers – 471 million – using 300 fewer buses and streetcars than it had back in 1988 when it carried only 463 million passengers. It did this by packing more of us into vehicles that come less frequently, and by cutting back on cleanups and repairs. This was necessary because the TTC relies on fares for three quarters of its operating costs. Even the Metropolitan Transportation Authority in New York City receives more government support per rider than the TTC does."
source

Now not that long ago I remember a grimy old, smelly LCBO that was the frequent recipient of anti public-sector attacks. It went through a transformation since then, a rebranding, layout and decor were focused on, and savvy promotional campaigns, features on premium products. Satisfaction with the service went through the roof. It's currently at 83% satisfaction. It used to be a fraction of that.

Now you can see with the current funding formula of the TTC, putting extra money into service increases and feel-good projects is impossible. It's just stretched to the limit of efficiency and it shows. People wrongly attribute the funding issues to the union being paid too much. They aren't. Private sector takeovers of public transit systems have resulted in financial and functional disasters (Melbourne, London, etc). The real problem is a structural deficit and unfair funding formula it has had to make do with for years. It remains the only large transit system in North America that doesn't get any state/province funding.

The issue with transit is complex, but I think complexities are only entertained as luxuries in this current City council, and by only a few who prefer to think hard about it.
i think there is a vast difference between one lcbo outlet and the ttc

im surprised you actually decided to use that as your model otis
 
Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

Dialog

TRIBE Member
i think there is a vast difference between one lcbo outlet and the ttc

im surprised you actually decided to use that as your model otis

Despite his inclusion of the word 'one' - likely intended in a folksy context - it's clear the reference was to the LCBO as an entire organization

I'm surprised you decided to call him out on this one
 

basketballjones

TRIBE Member
your right, they are exactly the same, ppl have options for how they get around the city for the most part...you dont have the option to get a bottle of scotch anywhere but the lcbo
nothing says good job more than a self written pat on the back when you run a monoploy

it costs nothing to tell the workers to actually do their job and be helpful in between naps and coffee breaks

a bit back i was getting on the subway, i paid the fair and went downstairs and after waiting a bit i was told that the subway was broken down somewhere on the line and had been for about 30 mins
i went upstairs and asked the ticket taker why he didnt say anything so i could have taken a bus and he said it wasnt his job or problem ...that is the type of shit that drives riders batty and doesnt cost a fucking dime to change...but...the change has to come from the top and the top doesnt give a rats ass
 
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Ho||yw0oD

TRIBE Member
a bit back i was getting on the subway, i paid the fair and went downstairs and after waiting a bit i was told that the subway was broken down somewhere on the line and had been for about 30 mins
i went upstairs and asked the ticket taker why he didnt say anything so i could have taken a bus and he said it wasnt his job or problem ...that is the type of shit that drives riders batty and doesnt cost a fucking dime to change...but...the change has to come from the top and the top doesnt give a rats ass

Yeah that is absolute bullshit and you should've been told. Now I am see that, at least at busy stations, they have guys by the gate informing riders that the subway is not running. And, they inform them BEFORE paying toll. Finally. I don't believe they do this at all stations, yet.

I also believe though that the highest levels of TTC care about user experiences and probably much more than the front line staff (e.g. toll collectors, drivers). Much like in any unionized environment, you get people who will do the bare minimum and anything other than that is not their job/problem. When you have the potential of being a bus driver earning a six figure salary, do you really give a fuck about being promoted to management? In a unionized environment, promotion to management equals less job security, much much more work and an overall lower quality of living.

Nevertheless, I think that the TTC can be defined as an essential service. Without TTC operating this city grinds to a near halt. It becomes chaos! Do I think though that we should designate them an essential service? Hells no. Personally, I wish they would be privatized. I am aware that in most places this is a failed experiment, but I would be interested in getting a holistic-minded private enterprise interested in trying to balance profitability with public service. Great in theory, difficult (but IMO not impossible) in practice.
 

OTIS

TRIBE Member
Report to council bellow.

Declaring the Toronto Transit Commission an Essential Service in Toronto


http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-15956.pdf

^^^ From the report you cite.

"Canadian evidence suggest that declaring a public service essential increases the cost of negotiated wage settlements, fuels wage growth across sectors – and does not guarantee that crucial services will be provided in the event of a strike."

Game, set, match.

your right, they are exactly the same, ppl have options for how they get around the city for the most part...you dont have the option to get a bottle of scotch anywhere but the lcbo nothing says good job more than a self written pat on the back when you run a monoploy

It's "YOU'RE RIGHT". And I'm not going to waste time further drawing out the comparison for you. If anything your comment about monopoly at the LCBO, where public pressure for reform would be greater, only bolsters my argument. It still was able to change customer satisfaction to highly favourable. But who cares, your goal seems only to obfuscate and misdirect. Most of you reactionaries deserve dictatorship.
 

Teflon

TRIBE Member
Just to note where I stand on this issue. For the most part I am just watching this unfold. I don't come to Toronto anymore so it really doesn't matter to me, other than the increased cost of declaring the service essential.

However, obviously something needs to be done.

I think that Ford can see that he is going to have a TTC strike next year. The TTC is going to ask for an increase in wages, benefits, staff, vacation or more gravy in the cafeteria. Ford's constituents are going to want blood. A stike will be inevitable. Ford is trying to do something to stop the strike.

Will it work? Probably not. If McDaddy actually passes the law, and I don't think he will anyway, it's going to cost taxpayers a lot extra.

So now what? Leave things the same?

Union will demand "insert crazy demand here"

Ford will say no. Taxpayers will say no.

Union will strike

Strike will last 1 to 2 days before the Province orders them back to work.

Contract will go to arbitration.

Union will get what it wants anyway.

What's the difference? Make it essential. Oulaw strikes. Prosecute and fire anyone that does strike.

Union gets more money.

City gets less interuptions.

It costs taxpayers more money. But it was costing more anyway.
 

OTIS

TRIBE Member
What's the difference? Make it essential. Oulaw strikes. Prosecute and fire anyone that does strike.

Union gets more money.

City gets less interuptions.

It costs taxpayers more money. But it was costing more anyway.

Differences:

1. Money. The TTC will cost estimated 23 million more over a 3-year contract ABOVE AND BEYOND what it would cost negotiating without "Essential" designation. That is if it goes smoothly. My guess with Ford's fighting words, union demands will reflect the 'fuck you' back inflating the estimated cost. The arbitration costs abut a million average as well, that's if it goes smooth and done in good faith.

2. No control. Arbitration takes the decision making out of City hands for what amounts to (I think) 60 percent of its workforce. So 60% of wages that the City is paying for now is determined by a process it has no control over. Stupid. Especially when those 10's of millions could be going towards service upgrades, and capital projects. Now it's getting wasted on giving people a false sense of reliability. Which brings me to point three.

3. Perception. As is evident in this thread and elsewhere people think that essential designation will prevent service interruptions. Considering the reality about no guarantee of service reliability, people are going to going to go apeshit when a strike still happens or at the very least a protracted job action which adds another hour onto their commute every day. People are being intentionally mislead as to this. Interruptions over the last 30 years have amounted to 13 days so that 1-2 day strike time has always been standard even without essential designation. That's in good faith. Because the mayor's office is pretty anti-union, that bad blood is going to translate into some extra shit-slinging somehow. People will be furious that they are paying more for a service that is now less reliable. Just dumb.
 
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alexd

Administrator
Staff member
Differences:

1. Money. The TTC will cost estimated 23 million more over a 3-year contract ABOVE AND BEYOND what it would cost negotiating without "Essential" designation.

Where did that info come from, the future?
 

Teflon

TRIBE Member
What fighting words? Voting to make it essential is capitulation to the union. They get more money. They should give Ford a medal.

Loose control???? Where have you been??? What control?


You strike, you're fired. Pretty simple perception to me.
 

OTIS

TRIBE Member
Where did that info come from, the future?

Yes. A future where the word "estimation" is more than glanced over. Check out this report if you want more of that crystal ball type stuff. It's a conservative number too. That report Teflon posted above puts it at 11 million per year.

What fighting words? Voting to make it essential is capitulation to the union. They get more money. They should give Ford a medal.

Loose control???? Where have you been??? What control?

You strike, you're fired. Pretty simple perception to me.
Here I thought you'd offer up some effort instead of glib spelling-mistake laden horseshit.

Why bother.
 

agentRC4

TRIBE Member
I thought you'd offer up some effort instead of glib spelling-mistake laden horseshit.

Why bother.

Those are the words of someone who has no logical thought process left. If the best you can do is tell someone their spelling is wrong, then you have reached the bottom of the barrel.
 

Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member
I'm all for more money going into the TTC. At some point there will come a time where the Union shall be required to make concessions, and it will either destroy them or reduce them to a husk.

Should this come to fruition, they will have only themselves to blame.
 
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kyfe

TRIBE Member
I'm all for more money going into the TTC. At some point there will come a time where the Union shall be required to make concessions, and it will either destroy them or reduce them to a husk.

Should this come to fruition, they will have only themselves to blame.

So am I but I also have a problem with drivers making 60-100k/yr, the funds are being allocated to the wrong areas when funding is granted from the province or feds. It's basically helping the TTC play catch up but not stay ahead of the curve, this is clearly evident from the amount of money that has been spent on infrastructure in the last 30 years. Everyone always uses the excuses of costs but lets face it, cost will never go down and the burden will only become greater the longer we wait.

As for the essential service, this should help but I fear we'll see something similar to what happens in London monthly in the long term.
 

OTIS

TRIBE Member
Those are the words of someone who has no logical thought process left. If the best you can do is tell someone their spelling is wrong, then you have reached the bottom of the barrel.
Actually, no. But tell me more of your cool story.
 

Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member
So am I but I also have a problem with drivers making 60-100k/yr, the funds are being allocated to the wrong areas when funding is granted from the province or feds. It's basically helping the TTC play catch up but not stay ahead of the curve, this is clearly evident from the amount of money that has been spent on infrastructure in the last 30 years. Everyone always uses the excuses of costs but lets face it, cost will never go down and the burden will only become greater the longer we wait.

As for the essential service, this should help but I fear we'll see something similar to what happens in London monthly in the long term.


As we've seen recently with the CAW/UAW, when the overhang in compensation reaches critical anal velocity, pop goes the weasel, as it were.
 
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Bernnie Federko

TRIBE Member

kyfe

TRIBE Member
As we've seen recently with the CAW/UAW, when the overhang in compensation reaches critical anal velocity, pop goes the weasel, as it were.

this is true regardless of what analysts think and you raise a very good comparison.

However in the UK they do like 1 day (informal) strikes every month, there's lots of information about it and it's a big deal and really messes up the city. I would say almost more than a complete strike would, at least with a formal strike you can make alternate plans in the UK trains still run but intermittently and various lines are shut down.

I'm confident this is what would happen if you took away the legal ability to strike.
 
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