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Council voted to designate TTC an essential service

OTIS

TRIBE Member
The "lefties" on Council didn't put up a fight at all to try to stop this. I guess like all politicians, they too are standing up for their rights to go whichever way they think the prevailing winds are blowing.

Did you pay attention to the debate on it? Lots stood up against it. 17 voted against. Not enough but certainly not a cakewalk. Most critics were on the left who want to see all the extra money essential designation will cost the city put towards something more useful, like actually funding the TTC appropriately.

Those who were weaklings on the issue were on the right. Like Deputy Mayor Doug Holyday who was one of the most pronounced critics of this essential service last time it came to council. He switched sides with ease as did Del Grande et al. Not surprising since they were given prominent positions in "Ford Nation".
 
Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
I think beatles have six legs each, it might make your counting more expedient to multiply, thus freeing up more time here

I have it on good authority that all The Beatles have (had in the case of John & George) 2 legs.

In case you meant beetles, your #'s go out the window when you factor in birth defects and war amps.

The cities economic development, culture and tourism division calculated that the cost of a transit strike to Toronto's economy is $50 million a day.

A report by the think-tank C.D. Howe Institute estimated designating the TTC essential would cost an extra $23-million over a three year contract.

The longest strike was in 1974 at 23 days. Strikes in recent years have only lasted for one or 2 days. But a 2 day strike would cost the city $100 million.

I've actually been wanting to see an accurate breakdown of the numbers so i can form an opinion on whether this is a good or bad move. Unfortunately the way you handle the data is laughable. Attributing the ENTIRE $50 million of Toronto's economy to the TTC is insane. It would obviously affect it in a negative way, but no where near the level that you're suggesting.

But if i had to guesstimate off of the #'s you provided (of $23 million over 3 years, compared to what a prolonged strike would cost) I may actually agree with the fat fuck on this move. But I'd actually like to get some real insight into it & credible estimates & amounts before i actually commit to the idea.
 

wakipaki

TRIBE Member
because labour activists (like union leaders) believe in the right to collective bargaining including the right to strike. it's not necessarily good for 'unions' and not all rank and file members want to be made essential services, but it does result in higher pay and benefits. a court action would be posturing and positioning for higher wages and increases to benefits in line with other essential services like fire, police and EMS.

also can't forget that not having the right to strike would significantly limit the unions scope, thereby reducing the need for their own services and employment, as arbitrators would be called in much sooner, it would be hard for the union to justify not slimming down their organization after being designated an essential service

anyone would fight something that was putting them out of a job
 
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wakipaki

TRIBE Member
well...personally, i still prefer cash. not necessarily commenting on the topic at hand.

incorrect, rationally what you actually prefer is the option to pay however you want, in the fastest time possible with out having to think too much
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Privatization eh?

Makes sense: the girls are wearing black tights, synth pop is back - sure mullets aren't back yet - but it really seems the 80s are in full effect!

Next we'll be hearing about trickle-down economics and a new line of MadBalls!!
 

Teflon

TRIBE Member
I've actually been wanting to see an accurate breakdown of the numbers so i can form an opinion on whether this is a good or bad move. Unfortunately the way you handle the data is laughable. Attributing the ENTIRE $50 million of Toronto's economy to the TTC is insane. It would obviously affect it in a negative way, but no where near the level that you're suggesting.

But if i had to guesstimate off of the #'s you provided (of $23 million over 3 years, compared to what a prolonged strike would cost) I may actually agree with the fat fuck on this move. But I'd actually like to get some real insight into it & credible estimates & amounts before i actually commit to the idea.

I'm just quoting man. If you want to laugh, laugh at the sources. That's why I put them in there.

My feeling is that $23 million over 5 years is way under the actual cost of making it essential.

I don't really understand what city council is supposed to do. In every union environment I have seen except one, the lunatics run the asylum.

For example:

TTC union leader charged in copper caper
By TAMARA CHERRY, Toronto Sun

TORONTO — - A TTC union president is accused of stealing copper wiring from work and selling it to a Vaughan scrap metal yard.

Miguel “Mike” Santos, a 39-year-old TTC electrician, was arrested Wednesday when York Regional Police, assisting Toronto Transit Commission special constables, carried out a search warrant at his Vaughan home.

The warrant came nearly a month after York cops were asked by the TTC officers to help them out regarding wire that had been stolen and “might be at a recycling centre,” York Regional Police Sgt. Gary Phillips said Friday.

The TTC was tipped off about the wire after someone saw it at a scrap yard and noticed markings that showed it was TTC property, TTC spokesman Brad Ross said.


or...

Union wants more gravy for train operators
By JENNY YUEN, Toronto Sun

Amalgamated Transit Union Local 113 boss Bob Kinnear says that if the 10,000 employees he represents cannot strike, they should be paid as much as cops and firefighters — which would mean an extra $10,000.

“If the city wants to hold us to the same threshold as police and fire, which they are by deeming us an essential service, we’ve got reasonable arguments that would lead to say we should be compensated the same,” Kinnear says. “If we’re going to play that game, we expect the rules ... and compensation to be the same.”


These are the leaders????

What an embarrassment.

CUPE is doing everything that it can to keep Santos' job by the way.
 

JoshuaReid

TRIBE Member
To everyone that's complaining about the lack of debit, you do realize how much of an added (unnecessary) cost this would add correct?

Interac charges per transaction. Just do some math and see if it would really justify adding debit:

In 2008, the TTC carried 1.5 million passengers per day.
Interac charges $0.007299 per transaction.
Now correct me if my math is wrong but that's an added $10,948 per day in fees. Or the big picture, $3,996,202 a year. All for something that will no doubt, slow things down rather than speed them up.

Maybe I'm wrong with these numbers, and would gladly be corrected if so, but otherwise, doesn't make much sense to me?
 
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OTIS

TRIBE Member
My bad. When I'm searching for objectivity, no editorial agenda and journalistic rigour, the Toronto Sun is choice. The half naked white trash on the third page is the mark of quality.
 

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
I'm just quoting man. If you want to laugh, laugh at the sources. That's why I put them in there.

My feeling is that $23 million over 5 years is way under the actual cost of making it essential.

what i found laughable was that you made the jump from Toronto's economy being estimated @ $50 million per day, and then somehow equated a 2 day TTC strike to cost the city $100 million.

That's whats called being fast & loose with the numbers. There is no link in that equation, The TTC is not 100% responsible for driving the economy. Yes a strike would negatively affect the economy, but it would be nowhere near that percentage.
 
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agentRC4

TRIBE Member
I think you are completely wrong on that fact.

To think that the TTC is not directly linked to the economic fabric of this city is ignorant and short sighted.

How can companies function if employee's can't get to them?
How are shoppers going to spend money if they can't get to the store?

Not mention seniors groups may not be able to access doctors appointments, meds, etc...

So yes $50,000,000 may seem like a lot of money but for a city the size of Toronto I'd day it right on par.

So to then use basic math and suggest that a 2 day stop would cost $100,000,000 would seem to be fair as well.

2 lost employee work days for any company is a significant amount of money.

Think of all the lost revenue in the food courts alone!


I know my company loses significant amount of money if I don't show up:O
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
To everyone that's complaining about the lack of debit, you do realize how much of an added (unnecessary) cost this would add correct?

Interac charges per transaction. Just do some math and see if it would really justify adding debit:

In 2008, the TTC carried 1.5 million passengers per day.
Interac charges $0.007299 per transaction.
Now correct me if my math is wrong but that's an added $10,948 per day in fees. Or the big picture, $3,996,202 a year. All for something that will no doubt, slow things down rather than speed them up.

Maybe I'm wrong with these numbers, and would gladly be corrected if so, but otherwise, doesn't make much sense to me?

Maybe it might reduce some of the coin intake and reduce costs in that way. It must cost a fortune to move and process tons of coins each day. As well as moving and processing the tons of tokens each day which are a separate channel entirely.
 
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OTIS

TRIBE Member
I think you are completely wrong on that fact.

To think that the TTC is not directly linked to the economic fabric of this city is ignorant and short sighted.

How can companies function if employee's can't get to them?
How are shoppers going to spend money if they can't get to the store?

Not mention seniors groups may not be able to access doctors appointments, meds, etc...

So yes $50,000,000 may seem like a lot of money but for a city the size of Toronto I'd day it right on par.

So to then use basic math and suggest that a 2 day stop would cost $100,000,000 would seem to be fair as well.

2 lost employee work days for any company is a significant amount of money.

Think of all the lost revenue in the food courts alone!


I know my company loses significant amount of money if I don't show up:O

Except there is one thing wrong with the premise behind your idea here: essentiality is not determined by economic well-being, it's determined by direct-public harm, and that's where the short-sightedness of this policy exists.

You could make the same economic well-being argument for everything from Canada Post or Tim Horton's even, but determining them essential would be absurd. It's not up to government to subsidize the economic well-being of the private sector at the cost of democratic rights and tax-dollars.

If economic well-being was the reason for limiting rights then we shouldn't have an 8 hour work day or a minimum wage. But we happen to live in a country with hard-won labour laws that everyone benefits from even though sometimes the same laws create periodic inconveniences.
 

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
I wonder if the people responsible for planning at the TTC and the City are having as much of a constructive discussion about the future of the TTC as we are here?

Once you strip away all the political, corporate, and union agendas behind the desire for the service to stay the same vs. the desire for it to change, I wonder if there is anything left to talk about?
 

DJ Vuvu Zela

TRIBE Member
I think you are completely wrong on that fact.

To think that the TTC is not directly linked to the economic fabric of this city is ignorant and short sighted.

i actually don't think that at all, in fact if you read what i typed you'd see that i think there would definitely be a negative impact from a ttc strike.

So yes $50,000,000 may seem like a lot of money but for a city the size of Toronto I'd day it right on par.

i don't have a problem with that estimate.

So to then use basic math and suggest that a 2 day stop would cost $100,000,000 would seem to be fair as well.

this is where you become an idiot. the TTC is not responsible for 100% of Toronto's economy. there is nothing basic or fair about that math, it is simply wrong.

I know my company loses significant amount of money if I don't show up:O

perhaps, i don't know what you do, but would the company not make $1? because that's basically that's what you're implying (except on a city wide basis)
 
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Chris

Well-Known TRIBEr
I wonder if the people responsible for planning at the TTC and the City are having as much of a constructive discussion about the future of the TTC as we are here?

Once you strip away all the political, corporate, and union agendas behind the desire for the service to stay the same vs. the desire for it to change, I wonder if there is anything left to talk about?

Its a great discussion here, and not much bashing going on. Some great ideas as well. As you pointed out, you have to wonder if they "politicians" are having the same sort of dialogue.

Clearing there are some common themes that have risen to the surface here on this forum.

-The level of frustration with the customers this service (including customer service) is supposed to provide and to the level "we" expect.
-Discourse over wages, its fairness and is it equitable; leading into the impression of the level of stranglehold of the TTC unions over the city and its commuters.
-etc

Im all for privatization of certain elements, contracting those services out to the best bider/service provider.

Adding more services clearly needs to happen.

There should be some level of discussion around how to increase service at the customer level. Clearly their incentive model isnt working. Hence the "attitude" many of us have experienced over the years. Im often left with the impression its "them" versus joe/jane public.
 
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alexd

Administrator
Staff member
There should be some level of discussion around how to increase service at the customer level.

I'd like to see some thought given to the future, and not just on big topics like subway vs. LRT, Unions vs. Private, customer service vs. take-what-you-are given.

Little changes within the service can make a big difference too! Clearly there has to be some brain storming done to figure out ways to improve the TTC in small ways that can be cumulative.

It wasn't so long ago that Metropasses weren't transferable, and there was no such thing as a week pass. I bet there was tons of heartbreak at the TTC Metropass picture department when that was place phased out, but I think that most would agree the transferable passes are extra convenient and more modern.

Increasing the variety of payment methods would be a good idea too I think. More ways to pay usually means more customers and purchases in most businesses.

Those screens at the stations that show when the next train is arriving were long overdue. Things like a google searchable TTC timetable with realtime vehicle positioning would be a next step. Everyone with smartphones would have an instant schedule in hand. Google is all about stuff like this, maybe they should meet Google and at least float some ideas around.

Smart changes will be harder to implement within such a glacially and bureaucratic Union-Company environment, but it is worth trying anyway.
 
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OTIS

TRIBE Member
I'd like to see some thought given to the future, and not just on big topics like subway vs. LRT, Unions vs. Private, customer service vs. take-what-you-are given.

Little changes within the service can make a big difference too! Clearly there has to be some brain storming done to figure out ways to improve the TTC in small ways that can be cumulative.

I think funding is the most important thing. Putting a little extra in cleanliness and capital projects can go a long way to make people 'feel' the TTC is better rather than get told it's "broken". It's just underfunded.

"The real problem with the TTC is that it's one of the most efficient transit agencies in North America. Last year, it carried a record number of passengers – 471 million – using 300 fewer buses and streetcars than it had back in 1988 when it carried only 463 million passengers. It did this by packing more of us into vehicles that come less frequently, and by cutting back on cleanups and repairs. This was necessary because the TTC relies on fares for three quarters of its operating costs. Even the Metropolitan Transportation Authority in New York City receives more government support per rider than the TTC does."
source

Now not that long ago I remember a grimy old, smelly LCBO that was the frequent recipient of anti public-sector attacks. It went through a transformation since then, a rebranding, layout and decor were focused on, and savvy promotional campaigns, features on premium products. Satisfaction with the service went through the roof. It's currently at 83% satisfaction. It used to be a fraction of that.

Now you can see with the current funding formula of the TTC, putting extra money into service increases and feel-good projects is impossible. It's just stretched to the limit of efficiency and it shows. People wrongly attribute the funding issues to the union being paid too much. They aren't. Private sector takeovers of public transit systems have resulted in financial and functional disasters (Melbourne, London, etc). The real problem is a structural deficit and unfair funding formula it has had to make do with for years. It remains the only large transit system in North America that doesn't get any state/province funding.

The issue with transit is complex, but I think complexities are only entertained as luxuries in this current City council, and by only a few who prefer to think hard about it.
 

Teflon

TRIBE Member
My bad. When I'm searching for objectivity, no editorial agenda and journalistic rigour, the Toronto Sun is choice. The half naked white trash on the third page is the mark of quality.

That's on the 2nd last page. Dummy. :rolleyes:
 

Teflon

TRIBE Member
Except there is one thing wrong with the premise behind your idea here: essentiality is not determined by economic well-being, it's determined by direct-public harm, and that's where the short-sightedness of this policy exists.

You could make the same economic well-being argument for everything from Canada Post or Tim Horton's even, but determining them essential would be absurd. It's not up to government to subsidize the economic well-being of the private sector at the cost of democratic rights and tax-dollars.

All publicly funded agencies are essential. If they weren't they shouldn't be funded at all. No strike legislation should be brought in at the provincial level for all public sector jobs.
 

Teflon

TRIBE Member
what i found laughable was that you made the jump from Toronto's economy being estimated @ $50 million per day, and then somehow equated a 2 day TTC strike to cost the city $100 million.

That's whats called being fast & loose with the numbers. There is no link in that equation, The TTC is not 100% responsible for driving the economy. Yes a strike would negatively affect the economy, but it would be nowhere near that percentage.

So you are laughing at me and have called another poster an idiot?

The cost to the economy is $50 million, not Toronto's economy is $50 Million per day!

Not that I trust the media, or the report. But thems the numbers I have at my disposal right now.

Any more name calling?
 
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