1. Hi Guest: Welcome to TRIBE, Toronto's largest and longest running online community. If you'd like to post here, or reply to existing posts on TRIBE, you first have to register on the forum. You can register with your facebook ID or with an email address. Join us!

Brutality vs unpleasant

Discussion in 'TRIBE Main Forum' started by Snuffy, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Snuffy

    Snuffy TRIBE Member

    Examples of police brutality

    - Saskatchewan Police dropping off drunkards in the middle of nowhere to freeze to death (2003).

    - Vancouver police answer a wife-beating complaint. They pummel the guy that answers the door and they break his eye socket bone. Unfortunately, the cops had the wrong house (2009).

    - Ohio National Guard opens fire on Kent University protesters with real bullets, killing four of them (1970).

    Unpleasant conflicts with police

    - Tear gas

    - Detention for "hours"

    - Minor injuries resulting from getting shoved.

  2. kuba

    kuba TRIBE Member

  3. acheron

    acheron TRIBE Member

    Did you know that Devo was started in part because of Kent State?

    From a recent interview with Jerry Casale, DEVO's bassist:

    "VR: Going back to your early days. You were present at the Kent State shootings in 1970. How did that day affect you?

    JC: Whatever I would say, would probably not all touch upon the significance or gravity of the situation at this point of time? It may sound trite or glib. All I can tell you is that it completely and utterly changed my life. I was white hippie boy and than I saw exit wounds from M1 rifles out of the backs of two people I knew. Two of the four people who were killed, Jeffrey Miller and Allison Krause, were my friends. We were all running our asses off from these motherf&*$#ers. It was total utter bullshit. Live ammunition and gasmasks – none of us knew, none of us could have imagined. They shot into a crowd that was running. I sopped being a hippie and I started to develop the idea of devolution. I got real, real pissed off.

    VR: Does Neil young’s "Ohio" strike close to your heart?

    JC: Of course. It was strange that the first person that we met, as Devo emerged, was Neil Young. He asked us to be in his movie, Human Highway. It was so strange – San Francisco in 1977. Talk about life being karmic, small and cyclical – it’s absolutely true. In fact I just a got a call from a person organizing a 30th Anniversary thing. Noam Chomsky will be there and I may go talk there if I can get away. I still remember it so crystal clear like a dream you will never forget…….. or a nightmare. I still remember every moment. It kind of went in slow motion like a car accident.

    VR: You said that the Kent State shooting sort of served as a catalyst for your theory of Devolution, which spawned Devo.

    JC: Absolutely. Until then I was a hippie. I thought that the world is essentially good. If people were evil, there was justice and that the law mattered. All of those silly naïve things. I saw the depths of the horrors and lies and the evil. In the paper that evening, the Akron Beacon Journal, said that students were running around armed and that officers had been hurt. So deputy sheriffs went out and deputized citizens. They drove around with shotguns and there was martial law for ten days. 7 PM curfew. It was open season the students. We lived in fear. Helicopters surrounding the city with hourly rotating runs out to the West Side and back downtown. All first amendment rights are suspended at the instance when the governor gives the order. All of the class action suits by the parents of the slain students were all dismissed out of court because once the governor announced martial law, they had no right to assemble."
  4. Bass-Invader

    Bass-Invader TRIBE Member

    Really though, just because the indiscretions are of a far lesser degree does not mean they should be excused. That is the point of progress is it not?
  5. kuba

    kuba TRIBE Member

    Just curious:

    Did anyone die?
    Did anyone get injured?
    How many were arrested vs released?
  6. Dirty Girl

    Dirty Girl TRIBE Member

    some of the clothes in that pic are glorious
  7. LeoGirl

    LeoGirl TRIBE Member

    Yes! There is plenty of evidence of protesters, as well as innocent bystanders *gawkers* who were either caught in the line of fire (rubber bullets) or have bruises from billy clubs.

    Again, I'm not choosing sides here. I believe the police were doing their job, but I also don't think that any of those Riot cops at Spadina / Lakeshore were Toronto cops. From what I've read they were OPP and RCMP (probably from out of town) who think that anyone with blue hair and piercings must be a violent person.
  8. videotronic

    videotronic TRIBE Member

    much like the point i was trying to make in the "par-t" thread, sometimes the line between "bystander" and "participant" can get very blurred.

    when you go to a baseball game to "spectate" you assume the risk that you could become a "participant" by being hit in the head with a foul ball.

    to think that spectating at a protest like this would be any different would be incredibly simplistic, and anyone who tells you they honestly had no inkling it would turn to chaos is either lying or an idiot.
  9. Vincent Vega

    Vincent Vega TRIBE Member

    You've yet to make it.

    You have no point man. All you have is the same banal observation, echoed by several others here and in the other threads, that sometimes people who show up to things have stuff happen to them. But thanks for telling us a couple of times now. Because really, we didn't know.

    So what's your point then? What is this sharp, focused argument you seem to be smugly trying to make?

    If you choose to respond, please don't come back with "if you go down to a protest expect that something might happen to you." Because we know that already. Everyone who went down there knew that. My 1 year old baby cousin knows that. And I think my boss's dog knows it too.

    Feel free to start with: "It's alright for hundreds of police in full combat gear to surround a diverse group of people on a downtown street corner, made up of protesters, observers, tourists and Argentinian soccer fans, box them in, not let them leave for hours, arrest them if they speak.........BECAUSE...."

    Ok go.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2010
  10. LeoGirl

    LeoGirl TRIBE Member

    I had hope - and felt - that it wouldn't get out of control. This is Toronto, we're a hugely diverse city, I feel safe here. We didn't check it out, because we had our kids. If that were not the case, I probably would have been spectating.

    To be reminded, I'm talking about the actions on SUNDAY!!! I never ever thought that I'd see something like that here. Mind you I also didn't think I'd see these Black Bloc tactics that took place Saturday either - but I had never heard of Black Bloc until Saturday. If the tactic used by police were used on Saturday to control the trouble makers, I'd probably shrug it off. I felt incredibly positive on Sunday after seeing the bike protest and thought that maybe the police also felt a sigh of relief, as this was supposed to be what protesting was about.

    Perhaps I am an idiot or just incredibly naive. Bottom line is, I'm disappointed that ended the way it did and it left me feeling like the police had something to prove rather than 'keep the peace'.
  11. acheron

    acheron TRIBE Member

    ...because the SIU were disorganized despite a year of planning, an essentially unlimited budget and infinite hubris on the part of police oversight and political expediency. Anonymous interviews with officers who were downtown that day depict a force that were dealing not only with the challenges of the day but with supervisors who were confused as to how to deal with violent protesters, etc... One was saying the order kept changing from go-get-'em to leave-them-be and back and forth.

    I still don't blame the cops themselves - they're doing as they're told, which is really all a cop has to do. If there were individual bad actors in their ranks, they will be dealt with appropriately if people follow the complaints process properly and with determination. As to their superiors, there definitely MUST be an inquiry into the whole billion-dollar security operation, paying particular attention to the moment the decision was made to move the G20 to Toronto.
  12. Psyrel

    Psyrel TRIBE Member

  13. AgentSanchez

    AgentSanchez TRIBE Promoter

    I'm highly dubious of your assertion.
  14. acheron

    acheron TRIBE Member

    Can't happen if you don't try. If people just throw up their hands, nothing will happen for sure. Look at the dude who was tasered to death in Vancouver's airport - now the crown is looking at the RCMP officers' statements with an eye toward criminal charges. The system works but you have to use it.
  15. DJ Vuvu Zela

    DJ Vuvu Zela TRIBE Member

    so if i have an "unpleasant" conflict with Snuffy it's ok if i pepper spray him/her in the face, shove him/her down to the ground. and then sit on his/her head for 4 hours?

  16. Snuffy

    Snuffy TRIBE Member

    If you assaulted me, out of the blue, I would guess it was for the worst and defend myself by killing you. It would be justifiable homicide.

  17. recoil

    recoil TRIBE Member

    wow! interesting. both the connection to Devo - of which I had no idea, and the aftermath of Kent State, with the deputizing of citizens.. gonna read up on that now

    they used real rubber bullets here? can anyone verify ? 17 people have been killed in Nothern Ireland from both rubber and plastic bullets (several of which were children). I think both rubber and plastic bullets should be banned. they sound innocuous, but they can cause terrible injuries, sometimes killing people instantly.

    here's a good article about them.

    Plastic Bullets

    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  18. rentboy

    rentboy TRIBE Member

  19. DJ Vuvu Zela

    DJ Vuvu Zela TRIBE Member

    so those things are "assault" when it happens to YOU, but just "unpleasant" when it happens to others?
  20. peko

    peko TRIBE Member

    A friend of mine was having lunch at the rivoli (or a resto close by) when the queen/spadina sitch was starting to get boxed in. He thinks he was lucky that his waiter took a long time to give him his bill because, if not, he and his friends would have been herded in the kettle based on sheer timing. He also stated that a family on vacation (with a 14 year old son) were leaving the resto at the same time and they all ran east on queen because that was the only direction they could go and riot cops were shooting their guns at them.

    The tourists were bewildered because the riot cops aimed at their 14 year old son and pelted the kid in the back with beanbag or rubber bullets - my friend stated that the poor kid had a mondo mark on his back..... suffice to say, the confused tourist family won't be spending their vacation dollars in Canada any time soon.... this an example of brutality not an unpleasant experience.

    Thanks for the brief history of Devo - very interesting.
  21. Snuffy

    Snuffy TRIBE Member

    It's about context. I'd have no idea why you were doing that to me thus the defense of killing you would be justifiable. If you're arrested during a riot, you know the context. You also know that you'll be out within hours because there's no evidence against you. I love living in a country where I'm confident about that.

    Up until Sunday night, I thought the police were doing an okay job showing restraint. I was with the crowd at Queens Park and it looked like they were targeting known individuals. Heck, the nab squad went for someone beside me, missed him, and bumped into me. They could have easily arrested me but they didn't.

    After being kicked out of the park, the entire crowd marched all the way from Bloor and Younge down to the security fence. We were boxed in once, but despite being so close to the security fence, no tear gas was used. Fortunately, I left down an alleyway before everyone else marched to the Nova Hotel. There's a point when you realize that it has gone too far and I knew we shouldn't have been by that fence. Glad I left when I did.

    Queen and Spadina was a blast on Saturday night. It was a mix of protesters, gawkers, and drunks. In all honesty, I was having a great time just hanging about, taking pictures, and talking to people. I never felt threatened or scared by the riot police.

    I suspect the police lost their cool on Sunday and I still support an inquiry; however, I also saw the cops show incredible restraint and professionalism at times and I do appreciate that. It could have been far worse.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  22. DJ Vuvu Zela

    DJ Vuvu Zela TRIBE Member

    i don't think it's about context, i just think your choice of using the word "unpleasant" is horrible.

    Unpleasant is sitting beside someone with BO in a movie theatre. What happened over the weekend far exceeded that. Was it police brutality? sometimes. Was it warranted sometimes, but often times it was an abuse of power.

    I feel bad for the police because they were placed in a lose / lose situation. (holding the G20 in toronto must rank as one of the all time piss poor canadian political decisions). But i still won't give them a pass for pulling some of the shit they did last weekend.

    People need to be fired or resign over this mess.
  23. basketballjones

    basketballjones TRIBE Member

    "dey took our rights!"
  24. Snuffy

    Snuffy TRIBE Member

    Fair. It was an abuse of power and unpleasant was a poor word choice. Sorry about that.

    As for firing, the only group I want tossed out for this are the Conservatives.
  25. bombthreat23

    bombthreat23 TRIBE Member

    videotronic, do yourself a favour and do not respond this guy, seriously. His passive aggressive higher than tho shtick is in every single post he does.
    If you want a good laugh just go read his previous posts. It is like he copy and pastes them. Amazing. His fav line "if you choose to respond please make sure you address me properly and in the manner I am laying out for you..." my god, what grade is this? who talks like that?

Share This Page