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books for n00bs on investing in stocks

alexd

Administrator
Staff member
Recommend me a book to learn the basics about investing in stock, a website, or even seminars (cheap)... I am an extreme n00b and want to try my hand at it with a tiny bit of money this year. Probably from one of those tax free accounts. Just to dip my toe in the h20...
 
Alex D. from TRIBE on Utility Room

deep

TRIBE Member
*wank hand to the above statement*

start here:
Bogle - The Little Red Book Of Common Sense Investing

then here:
Bernstein - The Four Pillars of Investing, The Intelligent Asset Allocator
Graham - The Intelligent Investor
Lydon - one of his ETF books

might get a book aimed at Canadians to understand the differences here
 

cosmosuave

TRIBE Member
Get a financial planner.

They are usually free and know more than you would from reading a book.

Regardless of the financial planner it is still a good idea to read a few books to know what your financial planner is doing... Anyone remember Bernie Madoff?

I had 2 books that I read and use for reference can't recall the titles but will look for them at home tonight...

TFSA is a good place to start... If you are with RBC you can have a practice investing account to toy with...
 
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diablo

TRIBE Member
Get a financial planner.

They are usually free and know more than you would from reading a book.

This.

If you want to buy a lottery ticket, go to the gas station.

Wanting to "invest in stocks" is a very vague goal, that should be viewed/clarified through the lens of a proper financial plan.
 
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kyfe

TRIBE Member
Stop Working: Here’s How You Can! Derek Foster.

this might be a good read for you, guy retired at 34 working an average job with average pay and talks about his investment strat which might not be for someone a little older but is still interesting.
 

sheik rock

TRIBE Member
Get a financial planner.

They are usually free and know more than you would from reading a book.

No. If you hire a financial planner, hire one hourly who isn't involved in the actual purchasing of your stocks.

Most of the free financial planners at banks are retarded. They also make all their money from selling you overpriced low performing mutual funds and from churning your account.

If you are just looking for good long term investing advice read:
Random Walk Down Wall Street
by Burton Malkiel

It is US based but the advice is applicable to Canada as it is more of a strategy than specific stock advice.

Following the buy-low-APR advice he is a fan of I am killing the gains of a buddy who works for a risk management company in NY and does his own stocks.
 

Hi i'm God

TRIBE Member
No. If you hire a financial planner, hire one hourly who isn't involved in the actual purchasing of your stocks.

Planners who charge hourly? Planners who can't create your portfolio?
What? These sounds like strange business models.

Going to a stock broker or a mutual fund guy or an insurance guy or an Icpm to discretionary manage you is all well and good but there are plenty of practices that do all of the above very well for no charge but the products.

Most of the free financial planners at banks are retarded. They also make all their money from selling you overpriced low performing mutual funds and from churning your account.
Yes don't go to a bank go to a proper financial planner.
 
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deep

TRIBE Member
the Fool is okay, they're in the business of selling you their information products. There are many other blogs out there that in the aggregate provide quality information without the sell. e.g. some i subscribe to

Bespoke Investment Group
Canadian Capitalist
CBC | Money News
ETF Trends
Million Dollar Journey
Quest For Four Pillars
The Globe and Mail - Market Blog
The Globe and Mail - Report on Business News
The Globe and Mail - Your Money News
WhereDoesAllMyMoneyGo.com

The Malkiel book is good too. Searching around the web for best investing books provides ready list of results
 

NemIsis

TRIBE Member
They also make all their money from selling you overpriced low performing mutual funds and from churning your account.
.

This is what scares me the most. After a divorce (13 year relationship), I was scared and had no idea what to do with the settlement. I considered buying a house, but I was newly single and afraid of making that huge a leap right away. I was still starting out in my career, so I wasn't making a huge amount at that time. One of my best friends at the time introduced me to her good friend (an investment broker with a reputable firm), and after knowing him for many months he advised me not to buy a house and promised to help create and build a portfolio so that I would be very comfortable in the future.

You can guess. He churned me, never called me about a trade and also had me invested in Bresea. (Which I had no idea was part of Bre-X).. Almost 85% of my cash gone in under 4 months. Trying to sue a major firm was the icing, as I think I paid more in lawyer's fees than I lost. I'm still clambering out of that hole.

Long story I know, but while having a financial advisor is a good idea, it is important that you understand what he is placing you in. Make sure he doesn't trade without your permission and question each and every trade. Get out quickly if you think he's screwing with you (even if it is a friend or family). Having an understanding of how the system works and doing your own research is vital. Just getting a financial planner is not the answer.

Like Alex, I also want to dip my toe in. I've been too wary to do so up until now, but I'm feeling a little more secure about it lately. Thanks for the info guys, I'll be checking out these books myself.

Oh, and I lost the best friend (She thought I was mean for suing her friend). :O No loss there.
 
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Tech_Head_Rob

TRIBE Member
I wrote this article on personal finance books a few months back.
The Personal Finance Book Roundup|DailyXY.com

I'd really recommend the Investing for Canadians for Dummies if you're a noob. It's well written and surveys a broad array of investing options (for example, owning and operating a small business).

(Some of the books I mention in this list aren't exactly for noobs, such as Jeremy Siegel's Stocks for the Long Run, but might be useful if you really get into investing.)

Perhaps the easiest strategy (and where my money goes) is MoneySense's Couch Potato Portfolio. See this page for a full overview: Build An Investment Portfolio | MoneySense. You basically just put your money into a pile of index stocks once a year--it's incredibly simple and should (key word) provide good returns over the long-term.
 
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diablo

TRIBE Member
Most of the free financial planners at banks are retarded. They also make all their money from selling you overpriced low performing mutual funds and from churning your account.

Almost any planner that you talk to in a bank branch gets paid a salary, plus a bonus for assets under administration (AUM) at the end of the year. They don't get mutual fund trailers, so they gain nothing by trying to shoehorn you into mutual funds.

As for churning...

Bank-branch planners do not get paid trade commissions, and the vast majority do not even trade individual stocks. If anything, you're least likely to have an advisor churn your account at a bank branch.


Planners who charge hourly? Planners who can't create your portfolio?
What? These sounds like strange business models.


Going to a stock broker or a mutual fund guy or an insurance guy or an Icpm to discretionary manage you is all well and good but there are plenty of practices that do all of the above very well for no charge but the products.

Yes don't go to a bank go to a proper financial planner.

Hourly/fee-only planners do exist, but they're still in the minority in these parts.

You can find unethical people in any industry, but there's nothing wrong with having an advisor make recommendations and sell the products. Your mechanic diagnoses damage and repairs it, right? Ditto for your doctor. However, neither of them has had to deal with a million negative news articles for the past 18 months.

As for the second bolded point, ALL bank-branch Financial Planners (as opposed to Investment Advisors, Fund Advisors, or any other title) have to hold a CFP or PFP designation. These are "proper" financial planners...the CFP is the gold standard of financial planning in Canada and the US.

Many people think that they're some kind of high roller. Take some dude with a $30,000 RRSP or inheritance, add in a few sensationalist news stories and some ETF/DIY shills like Rod Carrick of the Globe & Mail, and all of a sudden he's Warren Buffett and wants to buy gold and short stocks online. It's a recipe for financial ruin (or at least stagnation). For every day-trader that makes millions on a penny stock, there are a thousand suckers losing money and keeping Qtrade in business. For "playing around", you're better off going to the casino and plunking down a hundred on double-zero.

The fact is that mutual funds are far more suitable for the average person than individual stocks, for reasons that are too numerous and technical to get into here...you can read up on it on any number of websites. Yeah, you won't make billions, but you almost certainly won't lose your shirt, either. That's not exactly hot news for the water cooler, though.

As a corollary, an advisor or planner that works for a brokerage (TD Waterhouse, RBC Dominion, CIBC Wood Gundy, BMO Nesbitt Burns, Blackmont Capital, etc) will not even take you on as a client if your investable assets are less than $50,000. The commissions that you would generate are not worth their time and effort. This leaves most "average" people with the option of using a bank advisor/planner or a fee-only planner. Bank advisors have been demonized for the past 18 months, but the financial crisis was not the fault of advisor X at your local branch. A fee-only planner isn't always an attractive option for people trying to put away a hundred bucks here and two hundred bucks there. Again, the "non-sexy" option is what's suitable for most average people.
 

saskboy

TRIBE Member
Get a financial planner.

They are usually free and know more than you would from reading a book.

never heard of trailer fees have you?

CFP doesn't mean shit

Start with Money Sense. It's decent magazine with an emphasis on beginners. Read widely and trust nobody.

The banks knew that the so called sub-prime crisis was going to hit and yet they didn't say boo to any of their clients. They just continued to fleece people.

Liar's Poker by Micheal Lewis will give a you a good perspective. It's a good read as well.

Set up a dummy portfolio on stockhouse.com and paper trade. It's the best way too learn.
 

Hi i'm God

TRIBE Member
As for the second bolded point, ALL bank-branch Financial Planners (as opposed to Investment Advisors, Fund Advisors, or any other title) have to hold a CFP or PFP designation. These are "proper" financial planners...the CFP is the gold standard of financial planning in Canada and the US.

I agree with what your saying although I still have little respect for Bank planners as they more time than often push the products of that bank opposed to more suitable options. Even the pfp is a bank only accreditation a step down from industry recognized cfp.
 

Hi i'm God

TRIBE Member
never heard of trailer fees have you?

CFP doesn't mean shit

What do trailer fees have to do with anything that's a given when buying that product, they come right from the mer. Not to mention they are in place to prevent churning in the first place. This is also why, not being with a bank is a good idea so your advisor has better options of investment tools than a grunt pushing bank product.

CFP means as much as a CLU, T.E.P., R.F.C, RFP.
 

diablo

TRIBE Member
never heard of trailer fees have you?

CFP doesn't mean shit

Start with Money Sense. It's decent magazine with an emphasis on beginners. Read widely and trust nobody.

The banks knew that the so called sub-prime crisis was going to hit and yet they didn't say boo to any of their clients. They just continued to fleece people.

You're obviously long on big theories and short on practical knowledge. Not very many people in Canada got screwed by investing in mortgage pools. It was institutions and hedge funds that got screwed. Yes, yes, individuals invest in hedge funds...but these are well-off investors, not working-class people trying to squeak by. The "ordinary" people that got screwed by the mortgage crisis were people that took on more debt than they could afford. Even then, it was far worse in the states than here. So what's your beef?

Also: a dude trying to sell you a book and a story has far more of an agenda than a bank financial advisor.


I agree with what your saying although I still have little respect for Bank planners as they more time than often push the products of that bank opposed to more suitable options. Even the pfp is a bank only accreditation a step down from industry recognized cfp.

This is also why, not being with a bank is a good idea so your advisor has better options of investment tools than a grunt pushing bank product.

CFP means as much as a CLU, T.E.P., R.F.C, RFP.

As a rule, a bank branch will sell proprietary products. It's no different than a Volvo dealership only selling Volvos. In exchange for buying their in-house products, you don't get charged transaction fees (which people love to bitch about when that's what they're facing instead).

If you want to buy funds that aren't offered by your bank, you can go to the fund company directly or get an independent advisor (they do exist) if you have the cash. Like everything else in life, more money gives you more options. A guy with $5,000 and a $100-a-month PAC is obviously not going to be able to afford the biggest hot-shit advisor in town. You can also buy and hold GICs, many bonds, PPNs and segregated funds directly, although you may not get as good a rate as you would through an advisor.

I mean, a balanced fund from Big Bank A is going to be much the same as a balanced fund from Big Bank B, anyway. Again, individual stocks are not suitable for most non-high-net-worth investors. The punters will kick and scream about holding stocks directly, and then shit their pants when the value of their accounts swing 10, 20 or 40% in a day. The commissions (even for something as simple and necessary as a portfolio rebalance) simply eat up too much of the total if your account is not large enough. I'm not saying that no small investors should ever hold stocks directly, but they should make sure that they're as risk-tolerant as they think they are. And the stocks should be held as part of a long-term financial plan, after taking stock of your goals, means obligations and timelines (a questionnaire that every mutual fund "pusher" is required, at a minimum to go through with the client). Trading stocks for the sake of trading stocks with no goal other than "making money" can be an expensive hobby, and possibly financial suicide for someone who doesn't really know what they're doing.

CFP and PFP are really the only financial planning designations that will matter going forward. Anything less is not enough, and anything more is for more specialized activity. RFP is hardly even a going concern anymore. The designation got grandfathered into the CFP years ago, but you try getting hired as a planner with nothing but an RFP today. Also, PFP is not bank-only...it's offered through the Canadian Securities Institute. Granted, it does have more of a bank focus, though.

Ironically, an independent Investment Advisor needs less accreditation to set up shop than a Financial Planner in a bank branch. Edward Jones and Investors Group advertise like mad to draw people from other professions into becoming financial advisors as quickly as possible in order to generate short-term gain for the company. Who would you rather have as an advisor: someone with a BA/B.Com, years of financial education, a respected designation and the vetting of one of the oldest and most successful companies in the country, or someone who was working at Future Shop 18 months ago? I'm not saying that there's not value in independence, but it's not the be-all and end-all of financial guidance. EVERYONE has some kind of an angle, even the guy telling you to ignore everything and take a stab in the dark.
 
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jazzsax

TRIBE Member
I agree with most of the blogs posted, lots of good information there.

The derek foster book is a good read.

Discipline and emotions are pretty neccessary to do well if you're considering trading more frequently. If not, I'd recommend finding a reliable planner with trusted references. You can always spread your funds out between multiple sources/accounts for protection.
 

Mrs. Pink

TRIBE Member
TD Waterhouse offers seminars for beginners that are quite helpful. I'm sure most banks would offer the same. Great start if you are just starting to explore the markets. Financial Planners are geared towards people who are looking to invest existing funds, whether it be mutual funds or matured GIC's, settlements or inheritace, and it usually has to be close to or over 100k for them to take a look at it (at least through the big banks, i'm sure boutiques are different) and anything over 500k would go through Private Investment Advice. If you are really looking to get started on doing it by yourself, check with your local bank branch and ask for the seminars i had mentioned above, they really take a DIY approach and there are many niche seminars that follow that get a bit more complicated.
 

air-bag

TRIBE Member
investment 101 by airbag :)

Risk vs Reward
When you buy a stock you take on risk in return for reward on bearing that risk. The risk you are taking is that the stock will underperform. The more risk you are taking, the higher the return you will get. All investments are trade offs between risk and reward.

Diversification
Case1: Suppose you invest $100 a stock. The stock has a return 10% and risk of 20%.
Case2: Suppose you invest in two stocks - $50 in each. Each of the stocks, like before, has a return of 10% and risk of 20% but the stocks are very different (low correlation).

The return in both cases is the same = 10%
The risk in Case1 is 20% but in Case2 it is around 15%. (You can read up on it here)

If your portfolio is not diversified, you are taking more risk than you should. Instead of investing into a single stock like Case1, you can either create a portfolio like in Case2 that would lower the risk and maintain the return or form a different portfolio to improve your return but keep the same risk.


Stock picking
Stock picking is hard. To predict stock behavior, expert financial analysis do careful analysis. The analysis is very very hard and is highly prone to errors. To make things more complicated, irrational behavior of non expert investors also makes stocks unpredictable.
My point is that there is almost no chance that a regular person would be able to pick stocks without having insider info.


Mutual funds, financial advisors etc..
They will all overcharge you (you will get less return for the risk you are taking than you should) because they need to get paid. Historically, however, there is clear indication that they will not outperform the average of the stock market. Don't use them!


Stock picking = bad , Mutual funds = bad, Diversification = good
Ok, given the above, you shouldn't pick individual stocks, you shouldn't get advisors and you should diversify your portfolio. How would you do it? Invest in ETFs. They behave like stocks - you can buy sell them on an exchange. They have very good risk/return characteristics because they are inherently more diversified. (e.g. an ETF tracking S&P500). You pay very low management fees on them relative to mutual funds and financial advisors. How? Get an account with a cheap online broker and buy some ETFs like iShares.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
the best book i found for learning some basics in a really well thought out format was Benjamin Graham's Intelligent investor,

and Welcome To Jim Sinclair’s MineSet (for the gold bugs!)

The "ordinary" people that got screwed by the mortgage crisis were people that took on more debt than they could afford. Even then, it was far worse in the states than here. So what's your beef?

wrong, thousands of retires and fixed income folks with limited or at least modest means who were invested in what they believed were conservative bond-like or annuity funds were duped or mislead and lost considerable amounts of money.

most folks invested in the general stock market suffered significant losses in 2008, w/ the TSX at 14000 in the start of 2008 and about 11700 now after a solid recovery in 2009, even a conservative and passive investor is down a few years on, and with the sluggish economy might take a few more years to catch up. so "ordinary people" as you state that were invested prior to 2009 suffered too, especially considering how many people in the baby boom generation close to retirement that can afford to take a large loss which they beleived they were protected from by investing in what many "financial advisors" told them were conservative stocks like large cap's, financials and dividend paying utilities.


diablo said:
As a rule, a bank branch will sell proprietary products. It's no different than a Volvo dealership only selling Volvos. In exchange for buying their in-house products, you don't get charged transaction fees (which people love to bitch about when that's what they're facing instead).

true in part, banks will sell proprietary products but increasingly they can invest you in ETF's and or specific stocks all depending on your situation. transaction fee's to purchase a mutual fund might be waived but embedded in the fund itself are MER's that are for all intents and purposes a fee, and they are generally high (2.5%) for canadian funds which we have discussed before share a poor track record of being unable to beat their parent index year after year the past while.

diablo said:
CFP and PFP are really the only financial planning designations that will matter going forward. Anything less is not enough, and anything more is for more specialized activity. RFP is hardly even a going concern anymore. The designation got grandfathered into the CFP years ago, but you try getting hired as a planner with nothing but an RFP today. Also, PFP is not bank-only...it's offered through the Canadian Securities Institute. Granted, it does have more of a bank focus, though.

we know that by their record and in general year over year financial planners and their coutner parts with large banks have been unable to obtain better results than passive investing by simply purchasing the index's (ie: investing in the SPY vs. a SPY like mutual fund)

the issue isnt so much about the quality and substance of one's qualifications as much as dispelling the myth that a person with several years worth of experience selling mutual funds and rehashing the same old concepts of porfolio balancing is somehow going to earn you more money than simply putting it all in bonds, GIC's or a savings account the way alot of people used to do decades ago. depending on when and how much you began to invest, and in what classes its difficult to really give direct proof that the time and $$ spent purcahsing stocks or mutual funds was beneficial over more conservative and passive approaches.

but i can appreciate the need for people you can trust to guide you if the whole subject is new to you. some people simply arent interested in learning either so there will always be a need for banks and brokerages to provide guidance, my issue is that false hype that has been built up around advisors and the kinds of false promises or false perceptions people seem to have about them.

having someone you can trust is to me the biggest issue because at least they can convey to you the relative risks of what they are doing or about to, and how much risk tehy are willing to take on. though in the retail advisor's defense i suspect people dont really hear or want to hear what bank advisors are telling them when they discuss risk and potential draw downs. so the need for someone you trust is all the more critical as these types of cautions are more likley to stick, so in the event of a 2008 style collapse people dont get blindsided under the false impression that conservative blue chips simply dont or cant fall %50 in a market panic....
 

Confused

TRIBE Member
the bibles:

the-intelligent-investor1.jpg


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bruce_greenwald
 
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