• Hi Guest: Welcome to TRIBE, Toronto's largest and longest running online community. If you'd like to post here, or reply to existing posts on TRIBE, you first have to register on the forum. You can register with your facebook ID or with an email address. Join us!

Black Lives Matter vs PRIDE

KickIT

TRIBE Member
While I find them a bit too abrasive for my liking, I think they picked the perfect platform to get their message across.
 

Maui

TRIBE Member
It's as you called them before, social justice warriors. They are doing what they do, mainly being asshats.
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
...ya but they have a real reason to be pissed too - whereas the conception of SJW's - as far as I understand this pejorative term - seems more rooted in the irony of privileged white people claiming status from being an "SJW" and taking on the form/attitudes of being involved in a cause without really bringing the substance.

While I have my own issues with what the term SJW has become for certain groups of people, there's certainly a kernel of truth to the criticism of "SJW's" and this underlying irony of having pampered college kids go off the rails for the SJW cause.

BLM, on the other hand, has a LOT more substance behind it: America as the world's leading Jailor, systemic racism, how race is tied with inequality. They shot a black dude who was on the ground and subdued in Baton Rouge just yesterday.

I would not equate BLM with the comic-book conception of "SJW" for this reason.

And I'm not sure I consider ALL BLM actions to be appropriate, but its not really up to me, and they have been pretty good about getting publicity - which is a sign of an effective movement. Certainly they enjoy far more success and visibility than the vague term "SJW" which actually covers a whole variety of motivations and issues whereas BLM is much more focused to the plight of African Americans.
 

glych t.anomaly

TRIBE Member
Yes they did something that put them in the spotlight. Yes they took awareness to a place that gives them a louder voice than they would have otherwise had, its HOW they did that i disagree with.

Exclusionary tactics do more to hurt than it does to help IMO.

Their exclusion of not allowing people to apparently support them via t-shirts unless you are ' Black Identified ', why alienate people that are supporting your cause? Why push people away that want to help?
Why exclude the parts of the Toronto Police force that want to help. Saying all Police are out to get them and are abusive is an inclusive statement, which is not the truth.

While they may be being talked about, there is a huge debate as to whether or not this will in the long run do good for the movement here in Toronto.

Lives Matter, ALL of them, and i support that, i just think that sometimes less is more and extremism even on this level can garnish unwanted results.
 
Last edited:

KickIT

TRIBE Member
Why? Everyone is talking about it no? Pride was founded on protest, when no one else listened or gave a shit about them. boohoo, the parade is delayed 30 minutes. You poor entitled white folk are forced to think about something you don't want to think about. Boohoo. :rolleyes:
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
Lives Matter, ALL of them, and i support that, i just think that sometimes less is more and extremism even on this level can garnish unwanted results.
While this is true, it is not an effective rejoinder to the idea of "Black Lives Matter".

"All Lives Matter" is the clarion call of people who are unable to grok what BLM means and why they exist - and its predicated most often on a misunderstanding that "Black Lives Matter" means black lives are *more important* than others, which is not really what BLM is about (but its how people who worry about things like "reverse racism" choose to understand BLM)

I don't think you were coming at it from this direction Jai, but probably just ended up there for other reasons (I, for one, don't imagine you to be all that concerned about reverse racism and the latest Fox News outrage)
 

Maui

TRIBE Member
BLM, on the other hand, has a LOT more substance behind it: America as the world's leading Jailor, systemic racism, how race is tied with inequality. They shot a black dude who was on the ground and subdued in Baton Rouge just yesterday.

I would not equate BLM with the comic-book conception of "SJW" for this reason.

And I'm not sure I consider ALL BLM actions to be appropriate, but its not really up to me, and they have been pretty good about getting publicity - which is a sign of an effective movement. Certainly they enjoy far more success and visibility than the vague term "SJW" which actually covers a whole variety of motivations and issues whereas BLM is much more focused to the plight of African Americans.

Well like I said in that other thread, the problem is that they latch on to every single case whether justified or not. Sometimes a thug with a gun is exactly that and should not be a cause for protests by this group claiming he was a momma's boy blah blah blah. They lose their credibility and face a backlash because of this inability to choose their battles.

The cops card black people more and shoot them more often yes, but then blacks proportionately are committing the overwhelming majority of crime, so how does it not make sense if you were a cop that you would profile these people? Should they put their lives at risk just to not appear racist?
 

praktik

TRIBE Member
related:

Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!

The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That’s the situation of the “black lives matter” movement. Culture, laws, the arts, religion, and everyone else repeatedly suggest that all lives should matter. Clearly, that message already abounds in our society.

The problem is that, in practice, the world doesn’t work that way. You see the film Nightcrawler? You know the part where Renee Russo tells Jake Gyllenhal that she doesn’t want footage of a black or latino person dying, she wants news stories about affluent white people being killed? That’s not made up out of whole cloth — there is a news bias toward stories that the majority of the audience (who are white) can identify with. So when a young black man gets killed (prior to the recent police shootings), it’s generally not considered “news”, while a middle-aged white woman being killed is treated as news. And to a large degree, that is accurate — young black men are killed in significantly disproportionate numbers, which is why we don’t treat it as anything new. But the result is that, societally, we don’t pay as much attention to certain people’s deaths as we do to others. So, currently, we don’t treat all lives as though they matter equally.

Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase “black lives matter” also has an implicit “too” at the end: it’s saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying “all lives matter” is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It’s a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means “only black lives matter,” when that is obviously not the case. And so saying “all lives matter” as a direct response to “black lives matter” is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem.​
 

spaboy

TRIBE Member
Why? Everyone is talking about it no? Pride was founded on protest, when no one else listened or gave a shit about them. boohoo, the parade is delayed 30 minutes. You poor entitled white folk are forced to think about something you don't want to think about. Boohoo. :rolleyes:
So a group of people who have been persecuted a still are, invade a celebration of another group of people who have a similar plight?

Makes them look like spoiled little brats
 

StarvinMarvin

TRIBE Member
So a group of people who have been persecuted a still are, invade a celebration of another group of people who have a similar plight?

Makes them look like spoiled little brats
is there a chance they have tried to make their voices heard over the years and not been heard so there may have not been another way to handle this?

I am not even going to pretend to know about whats going on but hopefully some good conversation happens in here about it
 

glych t.anomaly

TRIBE Member
While this is true, it is not an effective rejoinder to the idea of "Black Lives Matter".

"All Lives Matter" is the clarion call of people who are unable to grok what BLM means and why they exist - and its predicated most often on a misunderstanding that "Black Lives Matter" means black lives are *more important* than others, which is not really what BLM is about (but its how people who worry about things like "reverse racism" choose to understand BLM)

I don't think you were coming at it from this direction Jai, but probably just ended up there for other reasons (I, for one, don't imagine you to be all that concerned about reverse racism and the latest Fox News outrage)
Hahaha definitely didnt mean to use the ' clarion call ' and im specifically talking about the Toronto Chapter and the events that happened recently, not BLM inclusively as a whole.

Yes Pride was born out of similar actions, but that was when there was no large presence or group of people that had made large progress possible.
Things were much worse back then for the LGBTQ community, and im not saying that there is not persecution still happening today , that largely effects the people BLM Toronto are championing for.

I dont agree with Pride's stance either on keeping BLM out of the parade, and truly do support their cause of awareness, and hope that Pride Toronto chooses to behave in a more commendable manner than they have in the past.

But when actions are taken to extremes on the level they are in a place where scrutiny like this will make people turn off or ignore the plight due to how they ' demonstrate ' or ' protest ' yes they have achieved a spot in the spotlight , but at what cost?

I have honestly seen about 7/10 comments regarding what happened on social media, in conversations in restaurants, talking to friends and in the media istelf vilifying their exclusionary antics as hypocritical, when thats what they are fighting against.

BLM needs to be there, it has its purpose, and the awareness they bring is direly needed.
Whether its a giant public forum, or a one on one conversation, people need to learn how to communicate better.

I really hope that this doesnt hurt them, more than it does them good.
 
Last edited:

Wiseman

TRIBE Member
I was there with my kids. Right at the location where the protest was held and arrived just as it began. At first I was annoyed and the kids were upset that the parade wasn't moving. Once I found out exactly what was happening (and there was pretty good communication through the crowd) I found it was a great learning opportunity. On the way to the parade I had taken the time to explain the origins of Pride as I feel my daughter is old enough to start to understand these things and i wanted them to realize this parade/party I take them to every year is more than that. This is not Taste of the Danforth. I thought their actions were appropriate and not excessive in any way. It was 25 minutes start to finish and entirely peaceful.

I may not agree with all their demands but that is the point. I don't doubt they knew exactly how controversial the demand to exclude Police from participating in the parade was going to be and I think even understand that particularly that demand will likely result in at most a reduction at best but it is so good the conversation is being had.

The BLM leadership in Toronto is very good at what they do and I have the utmost respect for their tactics. I may not agree with all their viewpoints or demands but I respect their ability to incite conversation and debate. I think Pride as an organization will be better for this as well.
 

Littlest Hobo

TRIBE Member
I hope BLM protests the next event celebrating the fat rich white man with his patriarchy and his Christian-Eurocentric ways. I'm looking at you, Santa Claus Parade.
 

KickIT

TRIBE Member
So a group of people who have been persecuted a still are, invade a celebration of another group of people who have a similar plight?

Makes them look like spoiled little brats
First they didn't invade, they were in the parade and they used that stage to get their message across. Shooting waterguns at people while nice doesn't get the message across. Why are do feel so inconvenienced and offended? Do you even know what they demanded other than no cop float? Makes you look like a spoiled brat.
 

glych t.anomaly

TRIBE Member
I hope BLM protests the next event celebrating the fat rich white man with his patriarchy and his Christian-Eurocentric ways. I'm looking at you, Santa Claus Parade.
This is possibly the first and best comment that has made me laugh out of all the vitriol i have seen displayed.
 

kyfe

TRIBE Member
Part of me wonders what would happen if Pride protested during the million man march? Would it be received in a similar light
 

I_bRAD

TRIBE Member
Well you are diluting the message of the parade if you co-opt it for your own purposes. It is an easy way to get some attention though. I think there's room for peaceful protest within the march. Now if you start pulling some OCAP or PETA style shit then you can just fuck right off.
 

KickIT

TRIBE Member
Of course the media, the NIMBYs and those who can't be bothered to find out can't get past the police float demand. The rest seem like reasonable requests to me:

 
Top