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Any PMPs on here?

blueshrike

TRIBE Member
guysmiley said:
You definitely bring up some good points and I believe they capture the stigma associated with PM’s in general (a good portion of which may be founded)

Using the Scrum methodology under Agile, you have “Scrum Masters” which help facilitate daily meetings and maintain Product Backlogs, Sprint Backlogs, and the Burn Down chart. The entire Sprint is given a timebox and each meeting has a status check on tasks accomplished, tasks planned, and roadblocks. Looking at the PMBOK 5:

Initiating – Getting the Scrum team together and defining feature as a part of the whole
Planning – Product Owner putting Stories into the Product Backlog. Creating the Sprint Backlog
Executing – Coding the Sprint backlog
Controlling – Daily meetings, Burn-down, timeboxes
Closing – Burndown closeout, budget closeout, celebrating, next feature selection

The PMBOK itself states several times that the stages of the lifecycle can be iterative and may overlap. Just like any good MD doesn’t rely solely on the Physicians Desk Reference nor does any good CA rely solely on GAAP, good PM’s shouldn’t rely solely on the verbage in the PMBOK.

Where I do think there is a disconnect is that “traditionally” trained PM’s believe that each stage should be clearly defined (especially requirements/planning) and that ambiguity (defined as a change in project scope) is undesired (hence, practically in most projects, CR processes often discourage change). Engineers typically view these types of PM’s as bureaucracy bringing little value- especially when time they can spend coding is being tied up by requirement sign-offs and approvals. Any PM who does not utilize their resources to accomplish defined project goals as soon as they are available to do so is wasting time, IMO.
BTW I am a program manager ... not an engineer (anymore) so I live the stigma. You forgot about the 9 knowledge areas:

Project Integration Management
Project Scope Management
Project Time Management
Project Cost Management
Project Quality Management
Project Human Resource Management
Project Communications Management
Project Risk Management
Project Procurement Management

Scrum Masters are not managers of most of these. They focus on a 2 or 3 week chunk out of a project that may take months. In truth no one knows how long it will take or even if you will build what you thought you would at the start. What you will build is what the customer decides they need in the moment.

But anyway ... we've both proven to the world how dweebie we are ... so probably the sooner this example of geekfestery terminates the better. (i.e. you get the last word).
 

Ms. Fit

TRIBE Member
Spinsah said:
what do you want, a medal? maybe a certificate? eh captain hard work ethical face?
let him be proud of his accomplishment.

what salaries are we looking at for a certified Project Manager?
 

guysmiley

TRIBE Member
blueshrike said:
But anyway ... we've both proven to the world how dweebie we are ... so probably the sooner this example of geekfestery terminates the better. (i.e. you get the last word).
I think we're on the same page, just at different paragraphs...I'm also an Engineer (but not software) turned PM, BTW.

I think the disucssion could have been wrapped up by a previous sentiment in this thread: "if it works, use it"
 

deep

TRIBE Member
KickIT said:
Traditional waterfall development is going out the door as more shops are going to Agile which requires a whole new way at looking at PM.
This is very accurate, IME.
 

blueshrike

TRIBE Member
deep said:
This is very accurate, IME.
Me2 when it comes to an IT project that is pure software dev and where requirements are weak.

Agile is not perfect for every task. Its not great if you have a specific time limit and a specific set of features to deliver in that time. With waterfall, you may not hit your dates but at least you will know you are late. With agile ... well you basically have to wrap it with waterfall like processes to have that information. In my experience anyway.

Agile is also only a s/w methodology ... if you have hardware or product considerations, then it won't work as well as the books say it will. Also its a pain in the ass to integrate traditionally project focused departments with a dev group that is working with agile (e.g. Tech Doc, Marketing, Solutions, Operations).
 
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H2Whoa

TRIBE Member
blueshrike said:
Me2 when it comes to an IT project that is pure software dev and where requirements are weak.

Agile is not perfect for every task. Its not great if you have a specific time limit and a specific set of features to deliver in that time. With waterfall, you may not hit your dates but at least you will know you are late. With agile ... well you basically have to wrap it with waterfall like processes to have that information. In my experience anyway.

Agile is also only a s/w methodology ... if you have hardware or product considerations, then it won't work as well as the books say it will. Also its a pain in the ass to integrate traditionally project focused departments with a dev group that is working with agile (e.g. Tech Doc, Marketing, Solutions, Operations).
exactly. it's based on a situation where design and requirements definition are mutable and meshed. Agile certainly has it's uses but it's not a paradigm in project control.
 

KillaLadY

TRIBE Member
Sorry to bring this out of the dead, but I am interested in following a project management career. Throughout the last 5-6 years, I have been working on various projects and managing them, of course, not really being a project manager. I have realized that I definitely enjoy the IT world and I enjoy managing projects and I feel it's a natural transition for me to do so.

I know a little about PMI (PMP) and that I require 7500 hours (didn't finish my bachelors). How am I to prove these hours, etc? It looks as though the certificate at Ryerson is quite good, but does that add any hours to my portfolio? What should I do?

Your advice is greatly appreciated.
 

KickIT

TRIBE Member
You can apply work hours on projects towards your PDUs. I started the Ryerson program but quickly realized (and my prof told me), that the certification program wasn't all the beneficial. If you work in PM, use work to accumulate PDUs, join PMI and study the PMBOK yourself.

Also, I found the Ryerson courses geared toward general project management (good for construction, gov't, etc), IT PM work doesn't fit this mold anymore. Most IT shops use a form of AGILE development which really deviate from PMBOK methodolgies. I learned way more about IT PMing from a couple of Agile courses than I did in the PM course.
 
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guysmiley

TRIBE Member
Not sure if the certification process is the same as when I went through, but there were two components to the application: education and work experience. AFAIK, you can’t have experience counting in both arenas that can be used towards certification.

If you’ve done project work for the past few years, you can use that by detailing it on the work experience form as part of the application package (did you visit PMI.org?). For the most part they take your word if what you’re writing seems realistic; however, they do audit on occasion so I wouldn’t bullshit on the application.

Maintaining a specific number of PDU’s with regular project work is not really valid- you have to be actually doing something to develop your career such as teaching, attending courses, holding seminars, etc…
 

Jeffsus

TRIBE Member
I did not expect to be, but have ended up as, a manager of engineering projects. These all have significant software and hardware components but there are, what one might call, 'sub' managers who look after the minutiae development of each component.

Anyway, what I've learned from this is the meaning of "shit flows downhill". I might suggest that 'project manager' is actually a euphemism for 'mediator of bullshit', 'catastrophic negotiator', or 'anger containment specialist'. The behind the scenes movement of money and schedules can really get people worked up and navigating that minefield without losing your marbles and while keeping the work on the page is a headache that most people wouldn't invite to their table knowingly.

It can be kind of exciting but it can also burn you out. Expect very long work days.

Anyhoo... outside of IT I've heard very little of PMP or whatever you're talking about.

-jM
A&D
 

erika

TRIBE Member
I have worked with utterly incompetent PMP's and with great Project managers who did not have their certification; it gives you a framework, but the on the ground pragmatic experience is what will do it for you.
If you want some of that framework you can get it anywhere, it doesnt't really make a difference; most of it after you know the basics is understanding context and how to apply what you've learned to get you to the end goal of a successful (on time, on budget etc.. ) project.
 

guysmiley

TRIBE Member
Not doubting that some really great project managers don't have a PMI designation, but I would recommend someone fairly new to the field invest the time in getting their designation. If anything, it gives you the baseline of what's expected and to help some tools to help you along the way.

I've also heard from a great number of project managers who view the PMI process and methodologies as "academic" and too bloated for practical applications. To each their own, but I've found some of the methods and tools I've acquired through obtaining and maintaining my designation have come in very handy when projects start to go sideways.
 
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erika

TRIBE Member
I would recommend someone fairly new to the field invest the time in getting their designation. If anything, it gives you the baseline of what's expected and to help some tools to help you along the way.
I've found some of the methods and tools I've acquired through obtaining and maintaining my designation have come in very handy when projects start to go sideways.
Absolutely agree; as long as one understands they are tools/methods and not the be-all end-all.
 

KickIT

TRIBE Member
PMBOK type PMing basically follows your traditional waterfall project, which is good for large scale projects like construction, or city planning, etc.

For IT development, lifecycles are generally much smaller with the aim of releasing products in "iterations". Agile, is the methodology for reducing the development lifecycle through the use of "User Stories". If you're in IT, I would suggest reading up on Agile as it's pretty much taking over the industry. No one in IT really cares about GANTT charts anymore.
 

Spinsah

TRIBE Member
Clearly, in government we are behind the times - I even work in a I&IT Project Mangement Centre of Excellence (on the Businesss Tranformation side) and Gantt charts and the waterfall style still play a primary role in our I&IT Project Mangement. We are in the process of implemeting a customized version of CA's Clarity software across the enterprise.
 
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H2Whoa

TRIBE Member
Clearly, in government we are behind the times.
Agile, Extreme and Scrum were developed for software dev environments where requirements are constantly changing and/or require constant re-assessment. that's not going to change much anytime soon (except in the most progressive of departments). from my experience order/process trumps chaos/people in the public sector.

Jeffsus makes a great point. Regardless of methodology its about control.
 
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