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Anti-terrorist raids in Toronto?

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
Lurker said:
I guess that's the beauty of free speech. To me, the hypocrisy of living within the culture when you can't stand it at all is pretty lame. I guess these kids wanted the best of both worlds: All the hate, but all the perks too (cars, plentiful food, schools etc.)
im not suggesting that poverty was to blame, but as i posted ealier in this thread, i know the area in misssisauga where some fo these dudes were from, i worked around the corner from the islaimc centre and spent a few summers with all these local kids lifeguarding, who were overwhelmingly muslim, and i can say that this was shitty part of town, ugly area, mostly subsidized housing and deep in the suburbs.

i doubt these folks enjoyed the perks in the sense you are mentioning they were probally not living the high life. though i figure this simply added to an already existing anger, considering most of the kids in that area dont grow up to become militants or criminals.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
A lot of these guys get manipulated specifically by individuals who make them feel guilty for being bad Muslims by living this society's lifestyle--plus they take advantage of a feeling of restlessness; idle hands are the devil's tools.
 

Lurker

TRIBE Member
What I meant by perks, was in comparison to an average upbringing in say, Afghanistan, Iran or maybe Pakistan.

I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but I would think that the stability and social infrastructure here would be a helluva lot better than any of those kinds of places.

Therefore, by comparison, as kids growing up they were a lot better off than their overseas counterparts yet somehow these kids see themselves in the same struggle against western imperialism, or whatever.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
Lurker said:
What I meant by perks, was in comparison to an average upbringing in say, Afghanistan, Iran or maybe Pakistan.

I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but I would think that the stability and social infrastructure here would be a helluva lot better than any of those kinds of places.

Therefore, by comparison, as kids growing up they were a lot better off than their overseas counterparts yet somehow these kids see themselves in the same struggle against western imperialism, or whatever.
They see it as a struggle against corruption. What some see as perks, they see as meaningless, soul-crushing, spiritually hollow, and morally corrupt. And honestly, consumer culture in North America, especially, is pretty disgusting and vapid. In some respects I really don't blame them for seeing it the way they do.

At least in those less fortunate countries, there is a much stronger sense of community, family and religion. And those are factors that give people a lot of satisfaction, hope, pride, and comfort.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
SellyCat said:
At least in those less fortunate countries, there is a much stronger sense of community, family and religion. And those are factors that give people a lot of satisfaction, hope, pride, and comfort.
yet from these nations so many of the radicals grow up, train and carry out violent operations against both domestic and international targets.

do you think the lack of a communal element was a factor in leading these kids to belive the evils of the west were worthy of violent reactions?
 

Lurker

TRIBE Member
SellyCat said:
They see it as a struggle against corruption. What some see as perks, they see as meaningless, soul-crushing, spiritually hollow, and morally corrupt. And honestly, consumer culture in North America, especially, is pretty disgusting and vapid. In some respects I really don't blame them for seeing it the way they do.

At least in those less fortunate countries, there is a much stronger sense of community, family and religion. And those are factors that give people a lot of satisfaction, hope, pride, and comfort.
Again, all valid points with respect to North American consumerism. But, as I alluded to earlier, these kids all came up through a decently funded PUBLIC school system, had grocery stores, medical care, public transit and/or family cars. I know we take these things for granted in our day to day lives compared to Afghanistan, Palestine, some parts of Pakistan etc. etc. and my point is that these kids had all of this available to them.

Yet they still foster the hatred of the western culture. Western culture is how they've been healthy their whole lives, educated and have an opportunity to enter the workforce and make more an hour than some people in the countries I just mentionnned likely make in a day.

This is what I don't understand.
 

Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
SellyCat said:
They see it as a struggle against corruption. What some see as perks, they see as meaningless, soul-crushing, spiritually hollow, and morally corrupt. And honestly, consumer culture in North America, especially, is pretty disgusting and vapid. In some respects I really don't blame them for seeing it the way they do.
Based on my reading of Lurker's post I don't think that's what he meant. He was likely referring to "perks" such as education, free healthcare, equal rights for women, decent standards of living and so on, unlike many of the countries from which the subjects of the article likely emigrated.

Incidentally, if they see it as a "struggle against corruption," (to which I woudl have to laugh out loud), what exactly are they doing to counter that perceived corruption?


And, given how they choose to address it, how do you not blame them for seeing it the way they do?

EDIT: looks like Lurker beat me to his own defence :)
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
yet from these nations so many of the radicals grow up, train and carry out violent operations against both domestic and international targets.

do you think the lack of a communal element was a factor in leading these kids to belive the evils of the west were worthy of violent reactions?

The community element was what helped them become that way as well.

I hope it is obvious that by understanding their revulsion towards elements of our culture, I am in no way supporting anything about their ideology or methods. I mean come on, in other threads I fully back targeted killings and other controversial security measures.

It's just that it's important to relate to where their anger comes from.

In Pakistan, they feel--and/or are made to feel--that their poor conditions are the result of "Western IMperialism". In the West, the "home grown terrorists," blame the vapid consumer culture for the lack of fulfillment they feel while living here.

All of these things are encouraged by extreme elements in the communities--here and there--that bored/disillusioned Muslim youth gravitate towards/around.

Lurkery, sorry if I misinterpreted what you meant by perks. It's interesting to note, however, that Islamic organisations in those countries provide exactly those kinds of basic perks, like education and health care. That is why they have so much legitimacy relative to the state.
 

Lurker

TRIBE Member
^^^ No worries, Selly, it's a touchy and vague subject.

I didn't think you were condoning their methods at all. I understand that the internal pull between getting sucked into the vapid western culture and homegrown religeous values can be a strong one.

If these hateful sentiments extend to the parents of these kids, why would the parents continue to raise their children in a setting and environment they hate so much? Do they just stay here to work because there's no work back home? Because the standard of living is better?

I know they have their religeous freedom here, which is totally cool, but if the argument against moving home is that your quality of life is better here then I would hope that they could cut western culture a bit of slack. If you don't want to move home to xxx-istan because you have it soo much better here, please kindly STFU and don't hate on the rest of us that call Canada home.
 

SellyCat

TRIBE Member
Yup. Totally agreed.

I think that type of thing is exceedingly rare, though. (For parents to foster contempt in their kids). I can see that happening much more in Europe where racism is rampant and Muslims are openly hated on. Plus their economic condition there is pretty dire. France's Muslim population = 40% unemployment
 

Lurker

TRIBE Member
The European situation I can understand as a fair number of them were encouraged to emigrate during the 50's and 60's (Turks in Germany for example).

I think in this case the parents and senior members of the local Mosque might not have done enough to dissuade these kids from their hateful endeavours, if they even noticed it. I only know what I read in the paper and everyone is being pretty tight lipped about it on a local level. Now, with this Star article giving some backround into the history of at least a couple of these people, it's shedding light on the fact that this has been brewing for a while now.

I was happy to see a lot of Canadian Muslim associations and "scholars" come out and speak against what these people had tried to engineer. Good to see that some newer Canadians appreciate what we have here instead of living here and yet using parts of western culture to pursue their own agenda of hate (internet, handing out cd's etc).
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
Vincent Vega said:
Have you been given access to evidence that has not yet been disclosed? Why is everyone so willing to dismiss this before ANY evidence has actually been presented? "This case" hasn't actually been made yet Keith. How can you be so sure of its failings?
Answer: because he thinks independently...

---------------------------------------------------
Charges stayed for two men in terror case
OMAR EL AKKAD

With a report from Campbell Clark

August 1, 2007

When 17 suspects were arrested as part of a massive anti-terrorism bust and made their first appearance in a Toronto-area courtroom last June, the whole world came out to watch. Reporters from CNN, The New York Times and al-Jazeera packed the courthouse parking lot; news of an alleged plot to blow up Canadian landmarks using fertilizer bombs made headlines everywhere.

Fourteen months later, the spectacle and sensationalism of that initial appearance is long gone, as Crown prosecutors now go about trying to prove the allegations against the suspects. As it became evident yesterday, that's proving to be anything but straightforward.

The number of suspects who will stand trial as a result of Canada's most high-profile anti-terrorism sweep shrank again yesterday, as two young offenders rounded up in the wave of arrests had the charges against them stayed.

There are still some conditions to which the two youth suspects must adhere, but the agreement between Crown prosecutors and defence lawyers to stay the charges effectively means the youths' involvement with the case is over. When a charge is stayed, it can be revived by prosecutors any time within a year; however, that very rarely happens. After a year, the charge is fully withdrawn.

In total, three of four youths charged in the case are now free, months before trials for any of the remaining 15 suspects are expected to begin. By law, none of the youth suspects can be named.

Both teens - who are adults now but were under 18 at the time of the alleged crimes - were held in prison after their arrests in June of 2006. Both spent two months in solitary confinement before they were granted bail last August.

"The apprehension, arrest and prosecution for terrorist-related offences has had a devastating impact on this young man and his family," lawyer Nadir Sachak said of his client, one of the youth suspects. "This resolution is the first step towards his recovery from the emotional and psychological scars sustained as a result of this ordeal. Hopefully, from this moment onwards, my client will be able to lead a normal, productive and meaningful life."

Both youths will have to abide by relatively minor conditions - they cannot associate with any of the other suspects and must undergo counselling. The bail conditions imposed on Mr. Sachak's client for the past year have been far more harsh: He could not use the phone except to talk with his lawyer, was prohibited from using a computer and could not leave the house unless accompanied by one of his sureties. With the charges stayed, those conditions are lifted.

The cases working their way through the fortress-like Brampton courthouse focus on two distinct allegations: a terrorist training camp in Northern Ontario and a plot to blow up Canadian landmarks using fertilizer-based explosives. None of the youth suspects were charged in connection with alleged bomb plot; they were accused of knowingly participating in terrorist activities related to the alleged training camp.

During the past six months, as the intense media attention surrounding the terrorism trial died down, there have been indications that the alleged level of involvement was not uniform among all those charged.

With yesterday's decision, there remains only one youth suspect facing charges. Neither he nor the 14 adult suspects have begun their trials yet.

As has been the case in virtually every court proceeding since the arrests, Crown prosecutors were not in the mood to talk to reporters after yesterday's decision. Clyde Bond, the lead prosecutor on the case, brushed reporters aside as he strode out of the courtroom yesterday, only saying: "There'll be a press release."

A federal prosecutor spokesman later said the Crown agreed to staying the charges because it was felt that it would not be in the public interest to prosecute the suspects at this time.

Speaking for the first time since his arrest, one of the youth suspects contrasted his feelings the night he was arrested with his feelings after the charges were stayed. "There's no worse feeling," the youth said of his arrest. "I'm just trying to forget about it. Now it's finally done, finally over with. I'm just happy."
-----------------------------------------
Sad, sad, sad.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
they failed to secure charges in teh Air India bombing,
it doesnt mean the accused didnt actually carry out the bombing.

some of the youths had their charges dropped or stayed, it doenst say what information they may have provided to secure their release, or if those still awaiting trial were actually planning on carrying out violent activity.
will ahve to wait and see what comes out in their trail i guess.
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
will ahve to wait and see what comes out in their trail i guess.
Yeah, I guess:rolleyes:

It's too bad these kids had to be sent to solitary confinement for no good reason, except of course, racism.
 

Vincent Vega

TRIBE Member
2canplay said:
Answer: because he thinks independently...
You're absolutely right. Clearly, because charges have been stayed against 2 out of seventeen defendants, the entire case lacks merit.

And is simply a racist pursuit.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
and to add:

i guess the mulsim who infiltrated the group and acted as a csis source to help bring down this group was a self-hating muslim,

and one of the leaders of the islamic centre in meadovale who aggreed that the figurehead who was cautioned for his extreme views and attempts to influence youths at the centre was a self hating and rascist muslim.

barf!!!!!!!
 

DaPhatConductor

TRIBE Promoter
it's really amazing to try to find how many of these types of arrests actually involve guilty verdicts... almost none of them.

but not before the sensationalist headlines hit the public mind.

this is PR, plain and simple.

i'd be willing to bet that not one of these kids is actually found guilty at the end of the day.

yes, these is hate and terror in the world, but that doesn't mean that every 'terror' arrest should be accepted at face value.

those kids are dupes and patsies in a much, much larger game.
 

judge wopner

TRIBE Member
DaPhatConductor said:
it's really amazing to try to find how many of these types of arrests actually involve guilty verdicts... almost none of them.

but not before the sensationalist headlines hit the public mind.

this is PR, plain and simple.

i'd be willing to bet that not one of these kids is actually found guilty at the end of the day.
do you realize the mammouth effort it takes to secure warrants to even surveil a group of people let alone obtain arrest warrants? you need to convince a judge with documented evidence that suspects have done something worthy of bringing them before the courts to be charged.

you dont think at least some of these defendants were upto something nefarious? if not why have only 2 been released so far?

the majority of defendants have not been to trial where more info will come out for us to consider, but youre right; most of them likely wont be formally charged.

we may not have all the details of who was asked to turn on the figure heads in order to increase the chances of at least 1 defendant being charged with something substantive. this doesnt mean they are actually innocent, they just have the option to strike a deal in the face of lesser charges.


DaPhatConductor said:
yes, these is hate and terror in the world, but that doesn't mean that every 'terror' arrest should be accepted at face value.
agreed and i hope no reasonable people take anything like this at face value, we need to be objective and fair about it, though the only people on this board taking things at face value are those claiming that this is a sham and that these kids are all innocent despite some damming evidence to the contrary.

we have so many examples of cults and the like in which innnocent people are manipulated in order to do things they would never normally consider. why is it so difficult to consider that some fo these youths suffered the same fate?

if we are taking bets i would wage that the the case used to defend some of these suspects, (especially the younger ones) will most likely entail an argument which makes light of manipulation by the ringleader.

saying you didnt commit a crime, or intend to do commit a crime is quite different from saying you were manipulated into to committing a crime.

DaPhatConductor said:
those kids are dupes and patsies in a much, much larger game.

agreed!!!
 

Hi i'm God

TRIBE Member
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6978465.stm



A self-confessed Muslim fundamentalist has told the BBC about his police informant role in helping to stop an alleged terrorist attack.

Canadian Mubin Shaikh befriended men who were allegedly plotting truck bombs in the downtown area of Toronto.

It is also claimed they discussed storming the parliament in revenge for Canada's military role in Afghanistan.

Mr Shaikh's work was a breakthrough for western security services attempting to penetrate terrorist networks.

Mr Shaikh told BBC Two's Newsnight programme that he first approached the Canadian Intelligence Service (CSIS) when a childhood friend was arrested in relation to a major British plot.

Momin Khawaja, also Canadian, is now awaiting trial for allegedly offering to supply detonators to a British conspiracy to build a massive fertiliser bomb. Five men were jailed in relation to that plot earlier this year.

Chatrooms penetrated

In his interview, Mr Shaikh tells the BBC how CSIS was interested in "the standing I had in the community and the connections I had" and asked him if he would work with them.

Mubin Shaikh in boxing garb
Training: Mr Shaikh's fighting skills interested the men

He agreed and was tasked with befriending a group that spies had been monitoring in extremist internet chatrooms.

In one chatroom, a London-based extremist calling himself Abu Dujanah tells one of the Toronto group that al-Qaeda is a "transnational university that specialises in the science of jihad and the production of mujahideen."

Abu Dujanah was a name used by Tariq Al Daour, a UK resident.

He was recently convicted in an unrelated British counter-terrorism case of incitement to murder over the internet.

Mr Shaikh was an army cadet as a teenager and soon joined the men he was targeting in a 10-day training camp in woodland north of the city.

Mr Shaikh says he taught the men mock combat exercises and target practice.

He denies that he egged them on and told the BBC the men spelled out their audacious plans in conversations in a car which had been bugged by CSIS.

Major trial

When some of the group allegedly tried to buy three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, police moved to arrest 17 men and youths.

Mohammed Momin Khawaja leaves a Canadian court
Momin Khawaja: Knew Shaikh - and named in British plot

Though charges have been stayed against three of them, the trial will be the biggest terrorism case in Canadian legal history. Central to the Crown's case will be the credibility of Mr Shaikh and another informant used in the case.

But Mr Shaikh, who has an outstanding assault charge against him which he denies, has also been criticised by some within the Muslim community for receiving $300,000 (£150,000) for his work.

Muhammad Robert Heft, who runs P4E, a Toronto charity for Muslim converts, said: "I personally believe that Mubin Sheikh had good intentions and I personally believe he was trying to keep Canada safe.

"Had he really thought about it, and realised that the Muslim community is so sceptical of the intentions of people out there, he would have reconsidered and not taken the money in order to keep the Muslim community on his side."

Mike McDonnell of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mike McDonnell: Deployed organised crime tactics

But Mr Shaikh told the BBC he could have earned a great deal more and didn't do it for the money.

The Canadian police have defended their use of informants in cases such as this.

Mike McDonell, Assistant Commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, said: "If you are introducing someone into a select group of individuals within a small community it is challenging.

"It doesn't matter if we get into organised crime and motorcycle gangs - they have certain tests that they try and get the individuals to perform to ensure they are not police officers or agents.

"The only difference is that you take power and greed out, replace it with ideology and you take the commodity out of say - clandestine drug labs - and replace it with bomb making labs and it's just like old times with organised crime."

Mubin Shaikh meanwhile has no doubts he did the right thing: "I was born and raised in Toronto," he said. "How could I let anything happen here?"

Watch Mubin Shaikh's interview in full on Newsnight, BBC Two from 2230 BST.
 

DaPhatConductor

TRIBE Promoter
hey wopner. thanks for replying, and for replying well.

please allow me to clarify my personal position:

i don't think that ALL terror suspects are innocent, far from it. there is no shortage of people willing to fsu and often these people are capitalized upon by those who wish to promote various nefarious agendae(sp?).

all i'm saying is that given the current political climate, and the role of the spectacle of terror, the ptb are often falling over themselves to make these spectacular arrests. so much so that evidence and proper law enforcement procedure frequently go out the window.

a fine (and basically non-controversial) case of this is what happened to those weather underground kids; they were literally going around bombing us government buildings to 'bring the war home' and the ptb handled it so badly that they ALL got off... and they were guilty!

the war on terror is being prosecuted in such a shoddy manner that i don't trust any of the arrests. sure, some of them might be guilty, but that doesn't make the arrests legitimate. we can't allow them to continue because innocent and guilty people alike are going to suffer horribly for no good reason.

if the ptb can't lay down the law effectively, their authority is illegitimate.

without proper trials and guilty verdicts the whole thing is completely farcical. the only reason it continues is that it works. it's a great way of controlling popular opinion and for keeping yourself in power/$$.

as long as we let it work on us, they will keep doing it.

this is why i feel the need to point out the illegitimacy of the terror arrests, not out of some blind tinfoil hatted belief in the innocence of every single suspect.

:D

we're a team buddy! yeaaaaaa!!!

<3

d
 

2canplay

TRIBE Member
judge wopner said:
will ahve to wait and see what comes out in their trail i guess.
I still can't believe that you guys couldn't see through this for what it was. The media played most-canadians for complete fools...which, apparently, isn't too much of a challenge. Wow.

--------------------------------------------------
Crown questions star witness's testimony
DAKSHANA BASCARAMURTY

From Thursday's Globe and Mail

June 19, 2008 at 4:48 AM EDT

BRAMPTON, ONT. — A Crown prosecutor aggressively cross-examined his own star witness in court yesterday, arguing that contrary to the witness's testimony, the accused youth knew he was attending terrorist training camps, rather than innocuous religious retreats.

During his five days of testimony, RCMP mole Mubin Shaikh has offered evidence that supports both the Crown and defence's cases.

He painted the alleged ringleader of the group as living in a "jihadi fantasy," but said the youth who were arrested in the sweep of 18 terror suspects were far less culpable and were not told about the group's "nefarious" plans for attacking major Canadian sites.

Crown prosecutor John Neander told the court that the youth - only one of whom still faces charges - were not as naive as Mr. Shaikh described and Mr. Shaikh's own testimony at previous hearingssuggests they were well aware of the real purpose of the December, 2005, and May, 2006, camps.

Youth kept in dark about plans, court told

Mr. Shaikh told the court he saw himself as "a protector of the vulnerable." He said that he had counselled the young accused - who was 17 at the time and whose identity is protected under the Youth Criminal Justice Act - to seek knowledge about Islam on his own, in an effort to balance the young man's communications with the alleged ringleader.

An alleged terrorist training video, which was submitted as evidence, contains footage from the December, 2005, camp, including an exhortation from the ringleader calling for the defeat of Rome - an alleged metaphor for America. Mr. Neander described it as an "explicitly terrorist speech."

Mr. Shaikh testified that the ringleader also told the group, "We're not officially part of al-Qaeda, but we share their principles and methods."

Upon questioning by Mr. Neander, Mr. Shaikh said the comment was made in the presence of the accused, but also said he could not recall whether the comment was part of the ringleader's exhortation, or given on another occasion.

He also had trouble remembering whether the accused youth was present when the comment was made. These were details Mr. Neander questioned him about at length.

Earlier in the week, Mr. Shaikh also testified that a 9 mm semi-automatic handgun was used during the December, 2005, camp for shooting practice, which was captured on video.

After the shooting practice was finished, the ringleader instructed the youth to clean up the site - including the shell casings - to protect "the chipmunks and squirrels," Mr. Shaikh said in court on Monday.Previously, he had said under oath that the youth knew it was to clear away evidence.

Mr. Neander said it was unlikely the youth were ignorant of the real reason for sweeping the campsite of shell casings.
 
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